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Kendo Kanli
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.07.17 05:37:22 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings Everyone, I am really torn between the Napoc and the Nightmare for a level 4 missions boat. I've been out of the loop for a while and wondering if the Nightmare was still the one to get when it comes to level 4 missions?
I'm after a solid tank that is cap stable that can solo level 4's with little issue, and i am an armor tanker by preference. Any advice would be appreciated, thank you. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10246
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Posted - 2016.07.17 05:51:19 -
[2] - Quote
Cap stable and armor?
Yeeaaaaah. You want an Apoc.
However... if you are willing to go outside of your comfort zone (no cap stability and a bit of active shield tanking management) then the Nightmare is your ship. And you will be rewarded with a non-insignificant damage boost.
If you are willing to spend a bit of bling, the Paladin is another option. Bastion Mode allows you be really skimpy with the tanking mods (allowing you cram more damage and application) and the MicroJumpDrive bonus lets you hopscotch 100km around the mission area every minute or so.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Noah Reese
21
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Posted - 2016.07.17 07:33:55 -
[3] - Quote
A cap stable Napoc is a really bad Napoc and a well fitted one makes good sense given the other options you have. On the other hand, given how cheap funky mods are these days you can "bling" a shield Nightmare without it becoming a gank target and it's actually easier to achieve near stable fit without it being a crap fit, this is mostly due to the NM only having 4 guns. NM is never going to have a massive tank (in a good fit) but normally it doesn't really need it, it's pretty much MADE to be used with Tachyons so you'll be medium to long range most of the time.
The Paladin is indeed the king, the marauderest of all the marauders and another Tach boat. It's glorious. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1320
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Posted - 2016.07.17 09:27:59 -
[4] - Quote
Noah Reese wrote:A cap stable Napoc is a really bad Napoc and a well fitted one makes good sense given the other options you have. On the other hand, given how cheap funky mods are these days you can "bling" a shield Nightmare without it becoming a gank target and it's actually easier to achieve near stable fit without it being a crap fit, this is mostly due to the NM only having 4 guns. NM is never going to have a massive tank (in a good fit) but normally it doesn't really need it, it's pretty much MADE to be used with Tachyons so you'll be medium to long range most of the time.
The Paladin is indeed the king, the marauderest of all the marauders and another Tach boat. It's glorious.
Why is a scale made for tachyons? And what nanometer could fit one?
What are you talking about?? Do even EVE?
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden Haven.
209
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Posted - 2016.07.17 10:48:41 -
[5] - Quote
Pretty sure above post is non serious. But...
NightMare works well with tachs because it can control range easily. The same reason is true for pulses. But if you fit for pulses, you normally need to sacrifice more slots to tank. And given how good tachs are compared to other lr weapon systems, a nm with tachs is just as viable as with pulses. It's the same as the paladin - there's no clear answer as to whether you should pick one over the other.
Back to the original question op - the nightmare is one of those boats that can be shield or armour tanked. An armour tank has slightly lower dps, but goes a long way to solving your cap issues, particularly against blood or sansha rats. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1321
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Posted - 2016.07.17 10:58:06 -
[6] - Quote
The Bigpuns wrote:...a nm with tachs is just as viable as with pulses..
Again, explain that sentence:
a nanometer with tachs??
A Nightmare with tachyons makes sense. Yours should explode and make either your wormholes collapse and destroy the rest of your assets or disband your alliance and make all your stations explode.
Why would anyone fit an armor rep on a shield boat?
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1560
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Posted - 2016.07.17 11:40:38 -
[7] - Quote
Don't use cap stable as a goal for missioning, it's lazy and you're holding the ship back from it's actual potential.
Cap stability is something you need when you are doing something with cap warfare, wormhole anomalies and level 5 missions come to mind for this. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
1046
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Posted - 2016.07.18 10:46:06 -
[8] - Quote
For pure damage potential the nightmare is king, and for Lv 4's has plenty of tank... armour or shield. Npoc has range and can fit a stonger armour tank than the nightmare, i wouldnt shield tank it... Paladin is easy mode... Can tank C5 wormhole sites and Lv5 missions, so a lv 4 is childs play. Lowest dmg of the three tho... so slower clear times.
For hi-sec amarr missions i would fly the nightmare over almost anything else... the only thing that is potentially "better" is the machariel due to its multiple dmg types and faster mission tansversal.
No Worries
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Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
23
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Posted - 2016.07.18 12:45:05 -
[9] - Quote
For L4, where sufficient shield tank can easily accomodate a tracking computer or two in addition to a tracking enhancer or two in the lows, I can't think of any reason why you'd armor fit a Nightmare :p
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
922
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Posted - 2016.07.18 13:05:21 -
[10] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Don't use cap stable as a goal for missioning, it's lazy and you're holding the ship back from it's actual potential.
Cap stability is something you need when you are doing something with cap warfare, wormhole anomalies and level 5 missions come to mind for this. Or for those who simply prefer to fly ships that are cap stable. Not being cap stable only matters to those who are obsessed to an unhealthy degree with maxing ISK/LP from time spent running missions, for the rest of us the minute or so extra time it takes to complete because cap stable is not relevant and we actually enjoy not having to micro manage cap. |
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1565
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Posted - 2016.07.18 13:33:40 -
[11] - Quote
why is it unhealthy to want to be efficient?
In reverse to this I would say it's unhealthy to be ok with being less efficient when you have the means within your grasp.
Time is the number one commodity in eve, I rather use it effectively when I have it than pander it attempting to make it "afkable"
When I'm playing eve, I'm playing eve, not trying to run facebook and pokemon go while doing level 4 missions. |
Omar Alharazaad
Nefarious Porpoise
2954
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Posted - 2016.07.18 13:55:32 -
[12] - Quote
Just a weird shot from deep left field here... go with whatever if most fun for YOU to fly. I know... crazy.
Screw the numbers. Disengage yourself from notions like 'cap stable'.... hell, you can always fit cap boosters or use silly tricks like MJD's to give yourself some breathing room.
If you're shooting for pure efficiency then is what you're doing really any different from work? Most of us have jobs IRL... we know how much work sucks. Play to play. Fly what you enjoy, hell fly crazy. Sometimes it's fun to take an assault frigate into a level four and mash your way through the mission. Efficient? Absolutely not. Fun? You betchya.
Anal retentive attention to detail is what's given this game the derogatory moniker of 'spreadsheets in space'. Defy that crap, do what makes the game fun for you.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
59
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Posted - 2016.07.18 15:52:23 -
[13] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote: Npoc has range and can fit a stonger armour tank than the nightmare, i wouldnt shield tank it...
but i did a shield Napoc for L4. works same as armor Napoc. same dps, same range... |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1565
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Posted - 2016.07.18 19:08:45 -
[14] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Just a weird shot from deep left field here... go with whatever if most fun for YOU to fly. I know... crazy.
Screw the numbers. Disengage yourself from notions like 'cap stable'.... hell, you can always fit cap boosters or use silly tricks like MJD's to give yourself some breathing room.
If you're shooting for pure efficiency then is what you're doing really any different from work? Most of us have jobs IRL... we know how much work sucks. Play to play. Fly what you enjoy, hell fly crazy. Sometimes it's fun to take an assault frigate into a level four and mash your way through the mission. Efficient? Absolutely not. Fun? You betchya.
Anal retentive attention to detail is what's given this game the derogatory moniker of 'spreadsheets in space'. Defy that crap, do what makes the game fun for you.
I wasn't the one who was imposing my ideas I was just throwing them out there. So again, why are people creating arguments from nothing?
I don't honestly care how you have fun in this game, I was stating my rebuttal against someone who said that enjoying efficiency was unhealthy. |
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
16
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Posted - 2016.07.19 04:32:27 -
[15] - Quote
I'll always fly the NM over the apoc or napoc. Between a bonused AB (what planet did i wake up on where gist x- tupe ABs are only 40 million isk?) and a mjd you can control range and still get aroumd mission grid quickly, at MJD range your sheilds dont take very much npc damage. Only running four vs eight energy turrets is a lot easier on your cap. Between sniping ranges and the tracking bonus, damage application on tachs is really good (not that it really matters when you mjd away and every agressed rat is burning towards you with zero transversal, though).
Armor definetly has a better resist profile for blood and sanshas, but the fact that they use tracking disruptors a lot makes clearing missions in a turret boat an exercise in frustration. If you are committed to energy turrets and are running primarily sansha and blood raiders missions, consider the navy issue geddon, it has got the bandwidth to run five sentry drones which you can use to pop those pesky ewar ships that disrupt you down to blaster range, and enough low slots to fit three heatsinks, a reasonable tank, and a drone damage amplifier. Youll need a cpu implant to make the most of it. |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1834
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Posted - 2016.07.19 06:36:58 -
[16] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:why is it unhealthy to want to be efficient?
In reverse to this I would say it's unhealthy to be ok with being less efficient when you have the means within your grasp.
Time is the number one commodity in eve, I rather use it effectively when I have it than pander it attempting to make it "afkable"
When I'm playing eve, I'm playing eve, not trying to run facebook and pokemon go while doing level 4 missions. People proved it already that the most efficient way to make ISK in this game is selling PLEX (unless you dirty poor IRL but in this case you'd better pay less attention to games and more to increse your efficiency IRL).
So it's only reasonable to do any in-game activity if you are having fun doing it.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
642
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Posted - 2016.07.19 08:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:People proved it already that the most efficient way to make ISK in this game is selling PLEX (unless you dirty poor IRL but in this case you'd better pay less attention to games and more to increse your efficiency IRL).
So it's only reasonable to do any in-game activity if you are having fun doing it. That may be true, but I think there's something to be said for "learning the value of a dollar". I have never sold a plex - I've grinded for every last credit. And during that length of time, I've learned the value of isk, and how quickly it can be lost. I've learned the game mechanics and I know better how to safeguard what I have.
A lot of words were spilled over skill injectors and how slow skill progression gives you time to learn the game, I feel the same argument holds true for isk as well. I recall a video of some kid who bought a character and a bunch of capitals, that he lost within like 48 hours. He was almost bragging about it in audio chat with the someone who recorded it. Grinding for isk helps keep people's head out of the clouds and instead, grounded in reality. When losing a carrier means being out a significant chunk of your in-game earnings, that's a lot different than being out your Sunday morning Starbucks routine once.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden Haven.
209
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Posted - 2016.07.19 17:15:35 -
[18] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:The Bigpuns wrote:...a nm with tachs is just as viable as with pulses.. Again, explain that sentence: a nanometer with tachs?? A Nightmare with tachyons makes sense. Yours should explode and make either your wormholes collapse and destroy the rest of your assets or disband your alliance and make all your stations explode.... Etc.
I see, you're one of 'those' people.
Go on then, explain how a unit of measurement will cause wormholes, even if it is equipped with big lasers...
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1326
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Posted - 2016.07.19 21:04:13 -
[19] - Quote
The Bigpuns wrote:elitatwo wrote:The Bigpuns wrote:...a nm with tachs is just as viable as with pulses.. Again, explain that sentence: a nanometer with tachs?? A Nightmare with tachyons makes sense. Yours should explode and make either your wormholes collapse and destroy the rest of your assets or disband your alliance and make all your stations explode.... Etc. I see, you're one of 'those' people. Go on then, explain how a unit of measurement will cause wormholes, even if it is equipped with big lasers...
I asked you first since you are the heretic that wants to violate a Nightmare with armor reps.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
|
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
16
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Posted - 2016.07.20 02:25:54 -
[20] - Quote
NM is great with megapulse as well, the dps from megapulse vaporizes rats on extremely short order, and the extra grid available makes fitting large nos easy... select a pair of frigs that arent dangerous to you, now you've got cap slaves. Don't let your drones eat them. |
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
945
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Posted - 2016.07.25 15:01:40 -
[21] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:why is it unhealthy to want to be efficient?
In reverse to this I would say it's unhealthy to be ok with being less efficient when you have the means within your grasp.
Time is the number one commodity in eve, I rather use it effectively when I have it than pander it attempting to make it "afkable"
When I'm playing eve, I'm playing eve, not trying to run facebook and pokemon go while doing level 4 missions. Why is it unhealthy, OCD. OCD causes stress and stress is an unhealthy condition for any human being.
Setting that aside and going with your second sentence. Being OK with something less than perfect in a computer game is not unhealthy, it is in fact a very good thing because it usually means that they are doing something they want to do in a way that they want to do it and they are doing it simply for the fun and enjoyment of it. And yet this statement causes me to wonder you state that cap stability is bad because slower mission completion times, but you are OK with slower mission completion times because travel time? If maxing your ISK / LP per hour is what you consider "fun" then I submit you are quite likely flying the wrong ship, flying missions in the wrong way, flying the wrong missions or all of these. Perhaps you should look into that as there are no doubt many ways you could increase your efficiency and therefore increase your fun factor.
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I wasn't the one who was imposing my ideas I was just throwing them out there. So again, why are people creating arguments from nothing? Funny you should post this considering this earlier post.
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Don't use cap stable as a goal for missioning, it's lazy and you're holding the ship back from it's actual potential. Taken in the context of a topic where the OP has specifically stated a preference for a cap stable fit this comment is indeed telling someone what they should do since doing it takes a ship / fit in the opposite direction to what the OP wants.
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Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
373
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Posted - 2016.08.06 14:57:16 -
[22] - Quote
I don't care about efficiency. But things like cap stability or auto-aggressing drone ratting is lazy and less engaging gameplay. That is what turns PvE into a grind in the first place.
My suggestion is usually...run whatever is the bare minimum to finish the mission. Run a BC or HAC or something smaller, that requires playing the game. You might have to actually fly the ship, pay attention to your cap/tank/etc, even....dread...warp out on occasion. All these things slow down isk printing, but actually mean playing the game rather than watching TV while your wallet blinks every 20 minutes.
It's also more useful to go out and experiment and learn than just asking on the forums what everyone else flies. Any T1 BS with a decent T2 tank will survive high sec PvE, so choosing one over another is just personal preference. There is no magic 'win' ship or fitting since pretty much anything will do...some just do it faster/easier. Two things that should be the opposite of what you're looking for in challenging or interesting gameplay.
A better question is what two or three ships would work well in a team to do any given content?...and find friends to bring along. Learn to build specialist ships and learn to fly specialist roles. PvE like mission running really should be training for PvP fleet operations instead of forever solo grinding to print isk. But somewhere players completely lost that concept, and it's why there is such a huge gulf between PvE and PvP. Use PvE to learn, practice, and play this massively multiplayer game with other people. Take turns being the FC and calling targets, broadcasting for reps, building a small fleet comp and fitting for specific roles. All of a sudden you are playing a game rather than AFKing a grind.
None of that is what the OP asked, it's just a suggestion to make Eve's PvE more than a chore where easiest/fastest is the goal. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1637
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Posted - 2016.08.07 21:17:21 -
[23] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:why is it unhealthy to want to be efficient?
In reverse to this I would say it's unhealthy to be ok with being less efficient when you have the means within your grasp.
Time is the number one commodity in eve, I rather use it effectively when I have it than pander it attempting to make it "afkable"
When I'm playing eve, I'm playing eve, not trying to run facebook and pokemon go while doing level 4 missions. Why is it unhealthy, OCD. OCD causes stress and stress is an unhealthy condition for any human being. Setting that aside and going with your second sentence. Being OK with something less than perfect in a computer game is not unhealthy, it is in fact a very good thing because it usually means that they are doing something they want to do in a way that they want to do it and they are doing it simply for the fun and enjoyment of it. And yet this statement causes me to wonder you state that cap stability is bad because slower mission completion times, but you are OK with slower mission completion times because travel time? If maxing your ISK / LP per hour is what you consider "fun" then I submit you are quite likely flying the wrong ship, flying missions in the wrong way, flying the wrong missions or all of these. Perhaps you should look into that as there are no doubt many ways you could increase your efficiency and therefore increase your fun factor. Tsukino Stareine wrote:I wasn't the one who was imposing my ideas I was just throwing them out there. So again, why are people creating arguments from nothing? Funny you should post this considering this earlier post. Tsukino Stareine wrote:Don't use cap stable as a goal for missioning, it's lazy and you're holding the ship back from it's actual potential. Taken in the context of a topic where the OP has specifically stated a preference for a cap stable fit this comment is indeed telling someone what they should do since doing it takes a ship / fit in the opposite direction to what the OP wants.
Do you even know what OCD is?
Being ok with something less than perfect means you don't really care about what you're doing. Even while enjoying games, I'm pretty sure most people get invested and want to do their best because you're rewarded for doing so.
Doing things inefficiently, on the other hand, causes unnecessary stress and I would say that's far more harmful than striving to become better.
There are things known as strong opinions, just because I use an imperative does not mean my word is law. It's a way of expressing that my point of view on this subject is very deep-rooted and I'm highly against the other side of the argument. |
Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
41
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Posted - 2016.08.12 02:11:12 -
[24] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Do you even know what OCD is?
Being ok with something less than perfect means you don't really care about what you're doing. Even while enjoying games, I'm pretty sure most people get invested and want to do their best because you're rewarded for doing so.
Doing things inefficiently, on the other hand, causes unnecessary stress and I would say that's far more harmful than striving to become better.
There are things known as strong opinions, just because I use an imperative does not mean my word is law. It's a way of expressing that my point of view on this subject is very deep-rooted and I'm highly against the other side of the argument.
I respect your 'strong opinion', and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
I'm not saying you are one of those people, but there is a bit of contradiction for many EVE players when they talk about 'efficiency'.
There are people who enjoy PvP in cheap T1 frigates and get great kills with them, and there are people who fly super blings with great skills and do fantastic fights. When it comes to PVP, most PVPers talk about 'fun' rather than efficiency. People talk about flying a specific fit/ship for 'lulz', or do something silly and laugh about it. Of course, there are vets who always knows and brings the best ship/fit for the job, but even those 'efficient' PvPers like to mess around with unusual/inefficient stuff from time to time. I don't know any serious PVPers who don't enjoy 'messing around'. Even those who care so much about KB efficiency lots of them have alt toons for lulz.
Then there is talk about PVE, such as missions, and suddenly efficiency becomes an absolute quality. The general underlying assumption/viewpoint is that PVE in EVE is not enjoyable, so it should be done as efficiently as possible to get the ISK needed and do something else that is fun, like PVP or whatever.
I do share the view that PVE in EVE is very lacking in many ways and it's not the most enjoyable aspect of the game. But people are different and some people do enjoy it - and if they enjoy doing it and they are having lulz in their L4 missions, then efficiency argument is totally irrelevant.
I also like to do my best in what I do generally, both in game and IRL, but if the purpose of playing a game is to get 'fun' out of it, then surely the best I can do in that game is to get most fun out of it, not to be most proficient/efficient in that game - especially if that game is a sandbox game. :p
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1645
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Posted - 2016.08.12 09:06:52 -
[25] - Quote
Exactly, goals are set by yourself.
I have fun when I'm winning, and winning defined by myself has efficiency tied into it. I'm not saying people who don't prioritise efficiency while pveing are wrong, I'm saying people who do are, in my opinion, having more fun. |
Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
43
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Posted - 2016.08.12 09:49:14 -
[26] - Quote
I understand you better now I think hehe, but it's a bit strange to have an opinion on how much 'fun' someone is having. It's alright to have any opinion on anything, but it's totally irrelevant, as in, I could have opinion on how much fun you are having, but that doesn't matter at all because what matters how much fun YOU feel you are having. I mean I could suggest you mine 1b units of veldspar and 'do it in a kestrel' because I have strong opinion that it will be fun, but you could just say 'no' and that would be it. ;)
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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