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Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
67
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Posted - 2016.08.18 02:48:01 -
[1] - Quote
Let's start on a possitive note, love the new look of the ships.
But, these changes are going to change how I mine, when I actually mine. More people will not got mining in Procurers in high sec with these new changes.
I need to sit down and test this out before I can think of more.
P.S. If you can not login to Singularity and want to know what the changes are. you can check it out in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuSy_6Fn8w
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Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
522
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Posted - 2016.08.18 09:01:01 -
[2] - Quote
Break your yield down into m-¦ per second, not per cycle, then compare again. |
Echo Mande
71
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Posted - 2016.08.18 10:19:17 -
[3] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Break your yield down into m-¦ per second, not per cycle, then compare again.
This.
I've been on Sisi to compare new vs. old (TQ).
In terms of ore yield per minute there is no change in the Skiff. Ice is something I haven't looked at because ice is something I currently mine in a Hulk or Endurance, not a Skiff. I was able to fit my usual fit without a problem and add the second strip miner.
The Hulk's changes are actually interesting, one less high and one more low. With my usual fit (2 MLU's) the yield is almost identical to a current TQ hulk. A third MLU does fit and increase yield about 8%. To me it's more interesting to explore other options for the third low however. A DCU is probably the first choice module to fit there. Another option might be a Power Diagnostic System, which might allow a properly tanked Hulk to fit and permarun a Medium Shield Booster II without dedicating all midslots and rig slots to tank or capacitor. Fitting a Reactor Control Unit is also something I will have to look into.
Why not a third MLU on a Hulk? A Hulk is a fairly specialized ship, intended for fleet mining ops. I use several hulks, an orca and a hauler in a fleet balanced to allow ore to flow steadily from the Hulks to the hauler's hangar. Raising hulk output 8% would unbalance that flow at the source, generating more ore in 4 mining cycles (my current hauling cycle) than the hauler can carry.
Wallet remarks everywhere
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17931
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Posted - 2016.08.18 10:52:11 -
[4] - Quote
Poor.
Hulk and Mack:
Cant use the slots they have due to not enough CPU, they require a mod/rig/implants to actually fit. Tank is fairly poor not becaue of the base stats but because of the lack of slots, CPU and powergrid.
Covetor and retriever:
1 mid and 3 lows does not a good ship make. Zero fitting room on them simply due to the lack of slots let alone, this makes then fodder to anything.
skiff and procuror:
Overtanked for their class (battleship base tank on a cruiser sized hull) means they effectively invalidate the other 4 barges.
All together this barge change is making all the same mistake that last two made. We need a radical rethink.
Skiff and proc should get their base hp brought back down to normal levels, keep the combat bonus to drones, get a few more slots and fitting room to open up options and allow for a decent combat fit. They are now perfect mining escorts/defence boats for both fleet work and solo.
Retriever and mackinaw both need a good deal more slots and CPU/PG so they can actually have options when fitting them. CCP need to get creative here so I would say go radical. Give them two utility highs and a small bonus to remote shield boosters. Alter the cap to compensate. Again, they need the ability to actually fit a decent setup, 1 mid and 3 lows are next to useless.
Covetor and Hulk should be the go to strip miners, they also need more fitting slots and CPU/PG to actually fit things.
I would also alter the cargo expanders to also impact the ore hold and reduce the hold on barges to compensate. All barges would be able to hold at least two cycles as a base with the option of improving that if they so wish.
T1 barges need fitting slots and CPU/PG on par with cruisers with similar potential defenses.
T2 need to have fitting slots and cpu/pg somewhere between force recons and heavy assault ships with similar potential defenses.
One of the oldest complaints about mining is how boring it is so lets inject some fun into it. Lets have mining fleets that can defend themselves rather than have miners forever relegated to prey and victims. Lets have miners able to support eachother and fend off a small gang that attacks them, let mining have actual skill involved ranther than everyone picking the skiff because it have a big base tank and mining AFK all day. Give miners content. |
Maria Olerie
Masterderizando
0
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Posted - 2016.08.18 12:55:37 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Poor.
Hulk and Mack:
Cant use the slots they have due to not enough CPU, they require a mod/rig/implants to actually fit. Tank is fairly poor not becaue of the base stats but because of the lack of slots, CPU and powergrid.
Covetor and retriever:
1 mid and 3 lows does not a good ship make. Zero fitting room on them simply due to the lack of slots let alone, this makes then fodder to anything.
skiff and procuror:
Overtanked for their class (battleship base tank on a cruiser sized hull) means they effectively invalidate the other 4 barges.
All together this barge change is making all the same mistake that last two made. We need a radical rethink.
Skiff and proc should get their base hp brought back down to normal levels, keep the combat bonus to drones, get a few more slots and fitting room to open up options and allow for a decent combat fit. They are now perfect mining escorts/defence boats for both fleet work and solo.
Retriever and mackinaw both need a good deal more slots and CPU/PG so they can actually have options when fitting them. CCP need to get creative here so I would say go radical. Give them two utility highs and a small bonus to remote shield boosters. Alter the cap to compensate. Again, they need the ability to actually fit a decent setup, 1 mid and 3 lows are next to useless.
Covetor and Hulk should be the go to strip miners, they also need more fitting slots and CPU/PG to actually fit things.
I would also alter the cargo expanders to also impact the ore hold and reduce the hold on barges to compensate. All barges would be able to hold at least two cycles as a base with the option of improving that if they so wish.
T1 barges need fitting slots and CPU/PG on par with cruisers with similar potential defenses.
T2 need to have fitting slots and cpu/pg somewhere between force recons and heavy assault ships with similar potential defenses.
One of the oldest complaints about mining is how boring it is so lets inject some fun into it. Lets have mining fleets that can defend themselves rather than have miners forever relegated to prey and victims. Lets have miners able to support eachother and fend off a small gang that attacks them, let mining have actual skill involved ranther than everyone picking the skiff because it have a big base tank and mining AFK all day. Give miners content.
Just 1 word.
NO.
Cause? Well, Hulk/Covetor is a Fleet Miner, supported by Haulers and defence fleet; or new rorqual.
Retriever/Mackinaw are almost like the Hulk, but for non-Hauler fleets or alone safe zones.
Skiff/Procurer are for Hostile zones; alone or in fleet; and at the same time the worst in m3/sec cause of that.
The "Give miners content" is not given by killing the Skiff and giving Combat Stat; taking your words "T2 need to have fitting slots and cpu/pg somewhere between force recons and heavy assault ships with similar potential defenses."; for the rest cuase the are NOT for combat. Skiff is for that, as it can defence him self alone; at the cost of less profit.
And for "Not enough CPU/PWG", well take your own word "Players need to get creative here". |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17940
|
Posted - 2016.08.18 13:06:14 -
[6] - Quote
Maria Olerie wrote: And for "Not enough CPU/PWG", well take your own word "Players need to get creative here".
Ok
Fit a tank to the covetor. |
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2016.08.18 14:41:13 -
[7] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Break your yield down into m-¦ per second, not per cycle, then compare again.
I completely did not notice that until I started to do some testing this morning.
We can now fit 2 Strip Miners on the Procurer. Going to edit first entry. Now I'm happy again. |
Asika Koraka
Dragon Factory Peoples United Republic Empire
1
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Posted - 2016.08.18 15:01:50 -
[8] - Quote
procurer now has definietly room for a cyno!
mining barge and powergrid/cpu issues - use implants otherwise dont use these ships but i will not rip off my mid-grade virtue set just for getting better fit for skiff/mackinaw actually mackinaw is not that bad just fit reactor control unit and cp so u have some space for mid slot combinations .
some people will try to use faction/deadspace modules to reduce cpu / powergrid usage to raise ship strenght , evryone would be happy to kill 2.5b fit mackinaw , why not?
===================================================== new players and you -- mining barge. when someone dont train eoungh core skills and just go straight for exhumers will have heavy cpu/powergrid issues so yes train your core skills before trying to fly anything bigger than shuttle
to be honest this change is AWESOME SO +1 ! but there is needed tweak to not cause anymore misunderstandings , in this case add +50 cpu and +25 powergrid on mining barges and exhumers or grant them module fitting cpu/powergrid need reduction by atleast 10% for powergrid need and 15% for cpu need of modules, this will give some way for us to fit our mining barges
retriever -both fleet and solo highsec safe zones, island systems sush malpara finid iderion serad zimse hanan dakba shumam etc.
hulk -and covetor - mining ship for fleet and transports to take ore from miners and defense fleet
procurer - mostly lowsec or wormhole mining ship solo or fleet mackinaw is solo miner in safe zones but fleet is advised both defense and ore taking platform sush orca/deep space transport |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3527
|
Posted - 2016.08.18 21:14:37 -
[9] - Quote
Damnit Baltec. Stop making me agree with you, it's threatening the fabric of the universe :P I might not agree on every specific of your proposal, but certainly the general principle is exactly what I've been arguing for a couple of years now as part of what is needed. Being attacked as a miner should be fun, and the current system is not fun. More fittings and decent self defence (While still not as good as combat ships due to some bonuses being towards mining, but the base slots can be the same) makes it a more fun experience. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
281
|
Posted - 2016.08.19 00:30:43 -
[10] - Quote
I wonder if it will be possible to have the unit count or m3 count in the overview for miners?
This is something we have been asking for, for a very long time, so instead of another window to look at we can just have an extra tab on our overview and please for the love that all goes boom and for the rust that we trust - make sure that it is fleet wide updated with survey scanners of other players in fleet on grid.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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Eidan Kell
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.08.19 09:47:53 -
[11] - Quote
Quick Feedback on First Impression
1. The new skin looks great, very tempting 2. Too much fire on the barge, particularly in low res mode. |
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2016.08.19 17:34:23 -
[12] - Quote
New Video on the numbers on the mining barges if you are unaware of the change amount
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPtQm2kbEYo |
Manathera
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.08.20 04:08:19 -
[13] - Quote
The numbers for those that don't want to watch the video... Numbers gathered with no implants, Mining barge, Exhumers, Mining, Ice Harvesting, Astrogeology all Level V. All lasers are 1230 m3 / cycle unless upgrades are used All ships have 3 low slots except the procurer with 2. 1 upgrade = +9% 1341 m3 2 Upgrades +18.86% 1462 m3 3 Upgrades +29.51% 1593 m3
Only cycle times differ. Procurer/Retriever _ 162 seconds 7.59 m3/sec Skiff/Mackinaw ____ 145.8 seconds 8.43 m3/sec Covetor _________ 121.5 seconds 10.12 m3/sec Hulk ____________ 103.3 seconds 11.9 m3/sec
Ice harvesting times Procurer/Retriever _ 135 seconds Skiff/Mackinaw ____ 121.5 seconds Covetor _________ 101.3 secons Hulk ____________ 86.1 seconds
Using the Procurer/Retriever as a base for both ore and ice skiff/Mackinaw +11.1% Covetor _____ +33.3% Hulk _______ +56.8%
For survivability, EHP with no modules fitted. Covetor ___ 6729 Retriever __ 8967 Hulk ______ 9668 Mackinaw _ 12919 Procurer __ 26580 Skiff _____ 37114
Mid slots (tank?) Retriever/Covetor = 1 Procurer/Mackinaw/Hulk = 4 Skiff = 5
Ore hold Covetor __ 7000 Hulk ____ 8500 Procurer _ 12000 Skiff ____ 15000 Retriever _ 27500 Mackinaw 35000
As stated earlier. Covetor/Hulk = Fleet mining unless you like warping back to dock every 5 min. but that kills the yield bonus overall. Retriever/Mackinaw = Long duration mining but not meant for solo operation unless your someplace relatively safe. Procurer/Skiff = Tough little bastards but not as efficient at mining.
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
283
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 01:35:06 -
[14] - Quote
Manathera wrote:The numbers for those that don't want to watch the video... Numbers gathered with no implants, Mining barge, Exhumers, Mining, Ice Harvesting, Astrogeology all Level V. All lasers are 1230 m3 / cycle unless upgrades are used All ships have 3 low slots except the procurer with 2. 1 upgrade = +9% 1341 m3 2 Upgrades +18.86% 1462 m3 3 Upgrades +29.51% 1593 m3
Only cycle times differ. Procurer/Retriever _ 162 seconds 7.59 m3/sec Skiff/Mackinaw ____ 145.8 seconds 8.43 m3/sec Covetor _________ 121.5 seconds 10.12 m3/sec Hulk ____________ 103.3 seconds 11.9 m3/sec
Ice harvesting times Procurer/Retriever _ 135 seconds Skiff/Mackinaw ____ 121.5 seconds Covetor _________ 101.3 secons Hulk ____________ 86.1 seconds
Using the Procurer/Retriever as a base for both ore and ice skiff/Mackinaw +11.1% Covetor _____ +33.3% Hulk _______ +56.8%
For survivability, EHP with no modules fitted. Covetor ___ 6729 Retriever __ 8967 Hulk ______ 9668 Mackinaw _ 12919 Procurer __ 26580 Skiff _____ 37114
Mid slots (tank?) Retriever/Covetor = 1 Procurer/Mackinaw/Hulk = 4 Skiff = 5
Ore hold Covetor __ 7000 Hulk ____ 8500 Procurer _ 12000 Skiff ____ 15000 Retriever _ 27500 Mackinaw 35000
As stated earlier. Covetor/Hulk = Fleet mining unless you like warping back to dock every 5 min. but that kills the yield bonus overall. Retriever/Mackinaw = Long duration mining but not meant for solo operation unless your someplace relatively safe. Procurer/Skiff = Tough little bastards but not as efficient at mining.
I spy can miners. . . /drool
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
|
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC
40
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 18:11:01 -
[15] - Quote
Just want to point out a small little detail on the new barge models for those that havent noticed yet. We now got visible drone bay openings on the underside of all the mining barges. I personaly like that little detail a lot. |
RainReaper
RRN Assembly INC
40
|
Posted - 2016.08.21 18:26:42 -
[16] - Quote
I also checked the skiffs ice mining capabileties.
On TQ with 1 ice harvester, 3 T2 ice harvesting upgrades and a ice harvester accelerator rig and with no orca boost I mine 1 ice every 40.3 secounds.
On SISI with the same upgrades and 2 ice harvesters each harvester instead mines 80.6 secounds, so not really any diffrence exept to the fact that on the last cycle you can only keep 1 of the 2 ice cause the ore hold is 15k m3 and not 16k m3 so I guess in total its a slight decrease in ice collection.
This is with max ice harvesting and mining barge/exhumer skills. |
Autism Intensifies
some random local shitlords
9
|
Posted - 2016.08.22 16:13:24 -
[17] - Quote
http://imgur.com/a/TNtCj
RIP Mackinaw |
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2016.08.22 19:41:16 -
[18] - Quote
Here's a video with some Exhumer numbers I am getting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JbLuyLkeS8 |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
28
|
Posted - 2016.08.26 06:24:25 -
[19] - Quote
Look, the Hulk's inability to fit Battleship-scale tank is intentional.
The Hulk is explicitly intended as a fleet mining vessel. With remote boosters, on grid boosts and the rest of the fleet providing drone DPS, tank isn't an issue. Complaining about the Hulk's lack on tank is missing the point. Any attempts to build a tank fit Hulk should be met with mockery, derision and tips on fitting a Skiff.
It's perfectly possible to fit it with a light cruiser tank of about 25k EHP, which is all it needs to survive rats with its fleet around it.
Sure, alone it's just scrap metal waiting to happen - but that's intentional, too. The Hulk's design says "If your Corp is together enough to successfully use this, you get 40% more yield".
That said, I don't actually think CCP have done a very good job of provididing meaningful fitting choices for the Hulk There's roughly one way to fit it, and that's that.
However, it's the Mackinaw that has no role. It can't tank to mine solo, and it's just not as good as the Hulk in a fleet. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18016
|
Posted - 2016.08.27 06:09:19 -
[20] - Quote
Kalido Raddi wrote:Look, the Hulk's inability to fit Battleship-scale tank is intentional.
The Hulk is explicitly intended as a fleet mining vessel. With remote boosters, on grid boosts and the rest of the fleet providing drone DPS, tank isn't an issue. Complaining about the Hulk's lack on tank is missing the point. Any attempts to build a tank fit Hulk should be met with mockery, derision and tips on fitting a Skiff.
It's perfectly possible to fit it with a light cruiser tank of about 25k EHP, which is all it needs to survive rats with its fleet around it.
Sure, alone it's just scrap metal waiting to happen - but that's intentional, too. The Hulk's design says "If your Corp is together enough to successfully use this, you get 40% more yield".
That said, I don't actually think CCP have done a very good job of provididing meaningful fitting choices for the Hulk There's roughly one way to fit it, and that's that.
However, it's the Mackinaw that has no role. It can't tank to mine solo, and it's just not as good as the Hulk in a fleet.
The whole Tank, Hold, Yield approach doesn't work. This is the third attempt at this and the general response is "still broken". Barges need a completely different approach to make them all useful hence my idea above which actually give each barge a useful role to play in a fleet while making all of them able to go solo with various qualities. |
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Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
32
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Posted - 2016.08.27 13:03:01 -
[21] - Quote
The Trinity isn't Tank, Hold, Yield. It's Tank, Lazy, Yield.
Mackinaws are for people who are too lazy to interact with the game they are playing, or botters.
What you are essentially arguing for Baltec is a complete change in how CCP envisage mining. I get your point, but CCP obviously aren't going to redesign that aspect of the game at this point. If they were, I'd argue for something even more radical than you are. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3548
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 01:23:04 -
[22] - Quote
Kalido Raddi wrote:Look, the Hulk's inability to fit Battleship-scale tank is intentional. Now please fit Cruiser sized Buffer or Active tank on a Hulk also. Hint: You can't. It tanks like a frigate at best, a T1 frigate. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18026
|
Posted - 2016.08.28 08:15:32 -
[23] - Quote
Kalido Raddi wrote:
What you are essentially arguing for Baltec is a complete change in how CCP envisage mining. I get your point, but CCP obviously aren't going to redesign that aspect of the game at this point. If they were, I'd argue for something even more radical than you are.
Then we will be back with a 4th barge balance pass. |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
32
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Posted - 2016.08.28 12:18:45 -
[24] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kalido Raddi wrote:Look, the Hulk's inability to fit Battleship-scale tank is intentional. Now please fit Cruiser sized Buffer or Active tank on a Hulk also. Hint: You can't. It tanks like a frigate at best, a T1 frigate.
One fun thing - because the fitting stats are the same, you can EFT new Hulks using the Mackinaw template. Be careful though - you do have to run the tank mods onto an actual Hulk to get the right defences - a mistake I nearly made.
[Mackinaw, ACTUALLY_A_NEW_HULK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Domination Thermal Dissipation Amplifier ML-3 Scoped Survey Scanner Small F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender Domination EM Ward Field
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Acolyte II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
Sansha space fit - 21k EHP (comparative roughly with a Caracal) - requires an EE-603 at all 5 skills. The Domination modules are cheap, at 16mil for the pair - about 12mil above the cost of the Tech2, and pocket change for anyone flying a quarter of a billion ISK barge.
You can do similar with Gurrista space. All this is aided by the fact that the faction mods with low fitting requirements aren't that in demand - most PvPers are after performance, not ease of fitting, so these mods tend to be ignored.
Sure, it's not the 80k+ EHP of a Skiff, but it's not going to fold if a Sansha Lord so much as glances at it. You should be fine as long as you've a few fleet mates about you - especially if you are together enough to have remote reps on Grid. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2915
|
Posted - 2016.08.29 06:32:15 -
[25] - Quote
figured i would just put this here
Quote: the designers could only make space to fit one mining or ice harvesting module. To mitigate the effect this would have on its mining output, they came up with a unique loading system that allows this one module to work with vastly increased efficiency.
needs to be removed from the proc/skiff description
Citadel worm hole tax
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
106
|
Posted - 2016.08.29 11:40:34 -
[26] - Quote
ok, normaly I run 2 miners + 1 orca.. rest of the gang runs assorted miners.. we usualy have pair of basilisks and pair of attack cruisers flying close air support
i decided to try a Hulk out on test
with orca boosts it was mineing so fast, i could not click and drag fast enough and drop into the orca, in addition to doing the other stuff i usualy do.. so i have went full tank on it and droped the mining upgrade units (minor physical limitation, i play the game with 1 hand, and no wise craks on what i am doing with the other hand HAHAHA if i had it i could play EVE more efficiently LOL )
these are raw stats... no orca boosts that i am posting
ice = 2 blocks every 86.1 seconds (83 bricks an hour )
fit High = 2x ice miner II Medium = adaptive invul field II, kinetic amp II, thermal amp II, medium shield extender II Low = PDU II, RCU II, DCU II Rigs = shield extender II
shields = 6236 52/79/84/76 (fitting window shows 21,888 vs Omni)
that being all said... hulk is supposed to be fleet ops... so having a tank, you just need enough tank for the basilisk to lock on to you and start reping you..
in reguards to some of your suggesteions Baltec1
a complete and total from ground up redesign of all the mining ships should be done
keep the passive low power slot mining upgrades
add in a active medium power slot module , that is scriptable.. with script for mineing range or mining speed or mining yield (in theory i would probably use the mining speed for ice, and yield for mining ore, and there have been a few times were i would use the range script version )
on a side note... i think that all the mining ships got seriously hurt as far as ability to fit tank when they went and did all the changes they did to hull resists and changes to fitting requirements for the damage control units, this made fitting any sort of tank significantly harder |
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2016.08.30 00:00:47 -
[27] - Quote
List of numbers for you for each ship. I excluded yields with fleet boost since that Blog came out today about changes to fleet boosting and modules.
Ore Mining: http://tomseve.blogspot.com/2016/08/new-mining-yield-and-cycle-times-with.html Ice Mining: http://tomseve.blogspot.com/2016/08/new-ice-harvesting-cycle-times.html |
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