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zus
Cyber Naval Command Research and Development
77
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Posted - 2016.08.21 18:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
My suggestion for the NPC's is this
Let them have their Ships different resistance properties at shield and armorer and HP quantity
Minimum of three elements of damage from all NPC's missiles as the third element
Mission Levels 3/4/5 NPC quality over quantity and use of small warp in groups so the use of EW can have effect
New Missions Wild goose chase NPC's warp out to safety to celestial bodies for repairs
New Missions Black Ops Wild goose chase NPC/s warp to safe spots
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
807
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Posted - 2016.08.21 22:51:28 -
[2] - Quote
EW does work. Webs, paint and ECM works on rats. ECM is a why? of course. Paint though...can be great double dip action. Paint helps your high slots and/or your drones for the double dip. Webs for brawl bs (or in the case of my rail kronos I ran, webbed the frigs and cruisers that lived to close on me and drone killed them while keeping highs on the BS targets at range). Splurge on FN for range gain, as much as it is.
At level 3 and 4 this has the issues of forcing brawling fits. Not all BC's and BS's brawl. Ergo they would not fit tackle. Since I sense this is a make pve like pvp thread....again. My sniper rokh's, run many times on pvp fleets fit no tackle. Pointless as with skills, mods and rigs I try to get say CN AM as good an optimal I can. When you are at 60+ km's...you aren't there to tackle. Same as with many LR spec pvp BS'.
Want to get tackle practice....take a pvp spec frig to cruiser in pve. Keeping a point on target, manual flight and working on traversal and such....you can get this now in level 1 and 2 if desired. Might be some lost isk per hour....pick your poison. More isk per hour or tackle practice.
Or...fit a web. Did this with a jaguar in pve. Since my pvp jaguar leverages range if I can keep web on target manual flight with mwd, its assumed point not an issue. Under 13km's harder to keep than 20 using manual flight.
Other issues is you'd have lingering missions if the rat(s) got away. 0.0 has this because the rats follow a cycle. Migrate from belt to belt. You will find them again if they warp off. Mission rat goes away...you won't find it again. Now you have the mission that doesn't clear.
Rats also don't need to sneak off and repair. They have high internal rep rates....and infinite cap. Missiles users see this often on our longer missile reloads. Can see even armor tankers have shield regen that is kind of high lol.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3536
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Posted - 2016.08.21 23:12:42 -
[3] - Quote
Ignoring the silly parts, Rats having better EHP/DPS and fewer of them spawning does actually make sense. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
807
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Posted - 2016.08.21 23:43:53 -
[4] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Ignoring the silly parts, Rats having better EHP/DPS and fewer of them spawning does actually make sense.
This I could see.
At some point a mission throwing the scrub low bounty BS's does nothing really. In theory it can be harder to kill a high speed orbiting cruiser than some of the 200-300K trash BS's. At least with missile chucking caldari.
As long as at the end I get the same (or better if possible) isk per tick we write off the 300K trash BS....make them become the 1 more uber 900k bs, I could dig that. Be an improvement over now where the 200-300k.s BS are just filler to grind really.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
396
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Posted - 2016.08.22 00:00:05 -
[5] - Quote
Your - threads - all have - dashes - in them.
- Why? - |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3464
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Posted - 2016.08.22 00:49:20 -
[6] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:Your - threads - all have - dashes - in them.
- Why? -
Yeah, THAT'S what's bad about his threads...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1372
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Posted - 2016.08.22 05:32:02 -
[7] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:EW does work. Webs, paint and ECM works on rats. ECM is a why? of course. Paint though...can be great double dip action. Paint helps your high slots and/or your drones for the double dip. Webs for brawl bs (or in the case of my rail kronos I ran, webbed the frigs and cruisers that lived to close on me and drone killed them while keeping highs on the BS targets at range).....
From your side or the NPC side?
Some NPCs are immune to ewar like Zor and some Overseers we meet in DED complexes.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
808
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Posted - 2016.08.22 10:46:28 -
[8] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:EW does work. Webs, paint and ECM works on rats. ECM is a why? of course. Paint though...can be great double dip action. Paint helps your high slots and/or your drones for the double dip. Webs for brawl bs (or in the case of my rail kronos I ran, webbed the frigs and cruisers that lived to close on me and drone killed them while keeping highs on the BS targets at range)..... From your side or the NPC side? Some NPCs are immune to ewar like Zor and some Overseers we meet in DED complexes.
Zor and I guess your DED stuff are exceptions. Forgot about Zor, my bad.
Common rats (mission and 0.0 belt) have taken TP and such no issues. Don't recall any issues with higher end stuff like sanctum or haven rats either. But that was in delve a few years ago if changes since then.
DED haven't really touched DED much tbh, will assume your info good about that and good to know. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1372
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Posted - 2016.08.22 10:52:43 -
[9] - Quote
You're welcome. Yeah the information is solid. I tried to web that overseer in a Sansha DED 6/10 last night. The message said that no ewar can be applied.
CONCORD bounty 2m isk.
The sanctums are are like any other mission NPC, so all jamming or tracking disruptions goes, though I have my doubts that it helps in that blobb.
Just as proof of concept, I ran a "Duo of Death" level 4 in a Rook and jammed the two webbing drones and since they were jammed, they were moving out of ecm optimal range.
Sleepers are also known to unlike ecm.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
958
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Posted - 2016.08.22 13:53:47 -
[10] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Ignoring the silly parts, Rats having better EHP/DPS and fewer of them spawning does actually make sense. Personally I would like to see this in some content. However in the normal mission pool for level 1 through level 4 this is a double edged sword. It makes the mission better for us vets, for the new players first moving into level 3 and 4 specifically with no real help from others this could easily overpower the poor fits leading to a lot of very frustrated new players and that would be bad. In the end missions level 1 to 4 are as much about the new players and as such they need to be balanced around the capabilities of those players and the ships they can afford and have the skills to fly.
I always thought that removing level 5's from high sec was a mistake. If they had been kept in high sec and re-balance the ISK / LP to be just slightly higher than the average level 4 it would have given the chance for that harder content. Yes I know but then there is even less reason to go to low sec, and that argument is moot because very few players go to low to run missions anyway. |
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
999
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Posted - 2016.08.22 19:28:52 -
[11] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Ignoring the silly parts, Rats having better EHP/DPS and fewer of them spawning does actually make sense. Personally I would like to see this in some content. However in the normal mission pool for level 1 through level 4 this is a double edged sword. It makes the mission better for us vets, for the new players first moving into level 3 and 4 specifically with no real help from others this could easily overpower the poor fits leading to a lot of very frustrated new players and that would be bad. In the end missions level 1 to 4 are as much about the new players and as such they need to be balanced around the capabilities of those players and the ships they can afford and have the skills to fly. I always thought that removing level 5's from high sec was a mistake. If they had been kept in high sec and re-balance the ISK / LP to be just slightly higher than the average level 4 it would have given the chance for that harder content. Yes I know but then there is even less reason to go to low sec, and that argument is moot because very few players go to low to run missions anyway.
I imagine that's what burners were kind of meant to do to some degree, though to a more extreme sense and by including rigid ship restrictions at the same time. CCP probably wanted to see how players handled the idea of fighting a few strong rats as apposed to dozens of weak ones when they introduced them. I'd be more for the damned things if it didn't require such stringent adherence to a particularly small list of ships and specific fits to simply survive them, let alone run them reliably. BS burners, for instance, would be kind of boring still if only max skilled Marauders or some odd-ball setup on one or two ships works, but anything else would just die horribly.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
808
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Posted - 2016.08.22 20:38:57 -
[12] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:
I always thought that removing level 5's from high sec was a mistake. If they had been kept in high sec and re-balance the ISK / LP to be just slightly higher than the average level 4 it would have given the chance for that harder content. Yes I know but then there is even less reason to go to low sec, and that argument is moot because very few players go to low to run missions anyway.
Even if only slightly better, it could still be too much really.
When the 5's were in empire much like any pve....the known good farming ways were set in place. This was rattlesnakes and iirc navy scorpions playground. Potentially soloable but most I know dual boxed them.
Also their complexity wasn't the rats...it was the neut towers of doom. Strong passive tank to ride out the killing of the neut sources....once done it was basically a man just pay me now ccp affair. As they were ccps' usual well throw more rats at them setup.
Only got harder if you didn't want to run (caldari) passive tank boats. Thats a player call to make things as hard or easy as they want really.
So isk/lp control kind of hard here. Could gimp the agent pay...We'd still get the rats amounts to make it worthwhile. Bounty alone if not loot and salvage. LP...iffy. I tend to bank mine and use for personal items. I know its not "free" stuff lol...I just like to avoid paying other people. that I tend to be bad at working the lp markets for max gain lol.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
958
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Posted - 2016.08.23 14:08:52 -
[13] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Even if only slightly better, it could still be too much really. What are you rambling about. If level 5's pay, bonuses, bounties and LP were were say 5% higher than a level 4 it would not be any more profitable to farm them because of the additional time required to run them.
If teh ISK / LP thing is your problem with level 5 mission moving back to high sec then make them the same average payouts as an average level 4 and be done with it. Impossible to farm them for more ISK / LP than the current level 4's but it would still give the vets the higher difficulty they want.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17608
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Posted - 2016.08.23 15:31:34 -
[14] - Quote
Zus keep posting, you're making a fantastic case for my proposal.
=]|[=
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
808
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Posted - 2016.08.23 18:20:20 -
[15] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:Even if only slightly better, it could still be too much really. What are you rambling about. If level 5's pay, bonuses, bounties and LP were were say 5% higher than a level 4 it would not be any more profitable to farm them because of the additional time required to run them. If teh ISK / LP thing is your problem with level 5 mission moving back to high sec then make them the same average payouts as an average level 4 and be done with it. Impossible to farm them for more ISK / LP than the current level 4's but it would still give the vets the higher difficulty they want.
YOu'd make your money on the mission run. Level 5 just spammed more rats, many of them BS level. YOu'd work that angle for the money.
Level 5 was not hard per se. If you didn't run it active tank anyway. Neut towers was the only hardship in mission. The 2nd hardest part was getting the motivation to get the mission and turn it in at the low sec station. Trained up a bomber or inty....this was not hard either. Passive tank caldari with cruise the neuts, negate the gate humping pirates....rest was wipe and pay me.
Maybe hard for other 3 races if active tankers, Or for players going why do I have to train t2 frigs that won't DIAF on the low sec run. Those player calls to do it their way. right tool for the job I say. Make this as hard or as easy as you want really
If a pure mission blitzer I'd see your point. They tend to like fast mission turn in. I mix it up. Blitz the crap, missions give me the extra rat waves BS heavy...I stay around to wipe them. The bounties good, and it becomes worthwhile to loot and salvage after.
That was level 5....throw more rats at you. Mowing them down it was just more money in one mission. Lose min/max mindset, have a fit many would consider overtanked for average pve (but needed for level 5)....and life went smoothly really.
Lots of rattlesnake fits out there for this. I will warn you....you see them and that is overtanked meter goes off the charts compared to most pve setups. Throw out the meter, accept the overtank as your lord and master....level 5's ran much easier.
This is why they moved to low sec. "Overtanked" for rats...human pirates can grind that down in the mission site. No concord saves, put tackle on the rattler....and they have all the time in the world to drop it.
My approach to sometimes making your money on the mission you have vice faster mission turn ins is based on how RNG sometimes gives me crap missions. I get a BS laden mission I wipe it. Since there is the chance a blitzed turn in will have the next mission be maybe 1.6 mil clear (mission and bonus) and the rats sucked assed bounty wise. Usually has me have system travel time as well.
RNG is RNG....when she is good to me and gives me a feast of a mission I clean my plate and ask for seconds basically. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
959
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Posted - 2016.08.24 13:08:55 -
[16] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:YOu'd make your money on the mission run. Level 5 just spammed more rats, many of them BS level. YOu'd work that angle for the money. You keep missing the point of AVERAGE pay outs. Do you have the slightest comprehension of what an average is? In case you are not sure about what an average is this link should help to clarify it. Average defined.
If you take the AVERAGE payout in total ISK / LP of the current level 4's, please note I said "total" which includes the bounties paid by Concord for the ships you kill. Increase that by 5% and make that the AVERAGE payout ( again including bounties ) for these new level 5's and there is very little chance of the ISK / LP / hour going up compared to average level 4 missions. And even f it does go up some the added difficulty of the level 5 missions justifies a small increase.
Yes level 5's are more difficult to run, the higher concentration of larger NPC ships with their higher DPS levels combined with the nuet towers you keep rambling about make them harder to run than level 4's. The fact that they seem to be as easy to run is a function of the increased capabilities your ships posses BECAUSE of your characters SP and the modules / bonuses that SP unlocks combiined with access to better modules because more ISK. An example of this I have a new character that I started recently to review the NPE and that character has more struggles getting through level 2 mission than this character does getting through level 4 and level 5 missions. ISK to buy the best ships and modules both can fly is not a factor since ISK available to one character can easily be moved to another, personal knowledge of HOW to run missions quickly and easily is not the issue since I have been running mission since I started in 2009 and I am playing both characters so the only change in the situation is the characters SP levels. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
658
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Posted - 2016.08.25 05:43:49 -
[17] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Zus keep posting, you're making a fantastic case for my proposal.
DIZ GON B GUD!
Care to lift a tip of the veil? |
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