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Lugia3
Tri-gun Escalating Entropy
1514
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Posted - 2016.08.31 17:26:21 -
[1] - Quote
The attribute system is old, archaic, and restricts players for no good reason.
Get rid of it and make accounts passively generate free skillpoints like they did in DUST.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2201
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Posted - 2016.08.31 17:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
If I could put your character in a cargo container and bury it - I would.
Skilling now is a zillion times easier than it ever was. Put your feet up and enjoy the SP cake this game is providing you. Keep your mouth shut while it is full of said SP cake. |
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
73
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Posted - 2016.08.31 17:50:05 -
[3] - Quote
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2203
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Posted - 2016.08.31 18:05:52 -
[4] - Quote
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.
I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.
Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!
(I know right!!) |
Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
21
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Posted - 2016.08.31 18:44:10 -
[5] - Quote
Massively agree - attributes are not fun. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2932
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Posted - 2016.08.31 18:50:47 -
[6] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!)
just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system.
in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.
why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugia3
Tri-gun Escalating Entropy
1515
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Posted - 2016.08.31 19:47:27 -
[7] - Quote
Well it looks like we found that one guy who likes bad game design.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
812
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Posted - 2016.08.31 23:24:54 -
[8] - Quote
Flat stats with +3's the first 9 months. Gets you a nice core char setup. You will be all over the first year. the flat stats cover this well imo. Doing pvp....run the 2 +3's for the skill in training to reduce costs.
Remap to taste after that.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1389
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Posted - 2016.08.31 23:44:08 -
[9] - Quote
Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong??
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
812
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Posted - 2016.09.01 03:39:35 -
[10] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong??
That I think they are thinking CCP will be generous here and give base attributes and a healthy dose of bonus points (for implants and to simulate remaps spacing) to base a new training speed on.
I don't see that. 3 points to current base start stats and call it done. 2 point for attribute implants using lowest one. 1 to be nice.
Reasons:
Not all use +4's and 5's. Not going to be a freebie. CCP bothered to split up set implants to be lg/mg/hg....lg +2 the lowest common denominator. And people have whined that even +3's for pvp expensive. So we will say not even +3 common, so not getting this for free either.
Attribute gone....not all min maxed on remaps. Base stats with implants works well enough imo...1 point to be nice here.
Basically...yay for them the char is now flexible at +3 to base stat for training speed in new system. And...will have crap train times on the long 5's. This is where remaps make their money.
Inb4 it won't be +3....rarely is ccp nice here. We got lucky on learning skill removal. I have been burned more than helped on CCP readjustments tbh. Part of me is hoping I am wrong here. I'd love uber training boosts. Why I don't see the generosity. Malcanis' law....it have me bang out some pita cap level 5's so much faster. I'd get more from it than lower sp chars would. Many older players would really. We see the 5's even with remaps and +4's that still suck ass time wise. |
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Luscius Uta
Hek Squad What Squad
226
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Posted - 2016.09.01 07:46:51 -
[11] - Quote
I would not have anything against attributes if they were arranged more sensibly, so that, for example, all the industrial skills, including those for flying ships such as freighters and transports, would share the same primary and secondary attributes. But those ship skills share attributes with combat ship skills that industry-oriented characters don't need! The most extreme case is training for a FAX - you need INT/MEM remap to train support skills, then you need to remap to PER/WIL to train Logistics and FAX skills and remap back to INT/MEM for Capital module and Triage skills. One way to fix this is to remove attributes entirely. Another way is to rearrange skill attributes by application, rather than skill group.
Workarounds are not bugfixes.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2206
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Posted - 2016.09.01 15:39:56 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?
Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread...
Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2956
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Posted - 2016.09.01 16:11:59 -
[13] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread... Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff.
Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope
Citadel worm hole tax
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2206
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Posted - 2016.09.01 16:52:07 -
[14] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up. I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that. Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this! (I know right!!) just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system. in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon? Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread... Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff. Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope
Fallacies... such as:
"ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment....
"why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that???
"You aquire SP while logged off and pooping".... oh wait, this one IS true |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2713
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Posted - 2016.09.01 16:54:32 -
[15] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem. I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the other hand, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2956
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:12:48 -
[16] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain. And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem with a partial set of +3s (Admittedly, I used +4s before I went into null sec because I could and it was actually beneficial). I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the contrary, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system.
didn't say limit i said push
Citadel worm hole tax
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Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
72
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:15:23 -
[17] - Quote
EVE's attribute is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake for sure. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2956
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:22:31 -
[18] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: "ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment....
except it is a punishment
"the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense."
buy going off attribute i get a penalty to how fast i gain sp
Quote: "why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that???
i never said it should take as much time but why should i gain sp slower just because supporting a fleet interests me over mining.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2959
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Posted - 2016.09.01 19:05:33 -
[19] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake.
good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope
Citadel worm hole tax
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1390
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Posted - 2016.09.01 23:37:43 -
[20] - Quote
Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea.
Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3??
Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Gregorius Goldstein
Ze One Man Show
139
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Posted - 2016.09.02 08:08:15 -
[21] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gregorius Goldstein wrote:EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope
I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2965
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Posted - 2016.09.02 10:18:54 -
[22] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gregorius Goldstein wrote:EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right?
correct.
but it is not the first game where high str will help me learn sword skills faster or high int help me learn more powerful magics
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2965
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Posted - 2016.09.02 10:20:52 -
[23] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea.
Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3??
Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end.
how does not wanting to be punished for wanting to train a certain combination = insta titans?
even with perfect training now you are not going to have max skills in less than two decades not that it matters anymore since people already have max skills thanks to injectors
Citadel worm hole tax
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2210
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Posted - 2016.09.02 11:09:16 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:elitatwo wrote:Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea.
Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3??
Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end. how does not wanting to be punished for wanting to train a certain combination = insta titans? even with perfect training now you are not going to have max skills in less than two decades not that it matters anymore since people already have max skills thanks to injectors
That's a good point. CCP has provided you with a way to totally bypass the whole thing.... AND YOU'RE STILL BITCHING ABOUT IT??????
Just one more buff and skilling will be OK. Just one more buff. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
971
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Posted - 2016.09.02 12:31:04 -
[25] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:If I could put your character in a cargo container and bury it - I would.
Skilling now is a zillion times easier than it ever was. Put your feet up and enjoy the SP cake this game is providing you. Keep your mouth shut while it is full of said SP cake. What was in times past is not relevant to what is today.
Because it is better than it was does that mean that it cannot or should not be improved?
Attributes and how and when to change them has been and still is one of the biggest areas of confusion for the new to EvE players that I come into contact with for this reason alone removing them would be an excellent idea.
And I remind everyone that CCP has stated that attributes will be going away, it is not a matter of IF it is a matter of when and what will they be replaced with and in that way any and all discussion on attributes and how to replace them is valid, even if you think the idea is terrible. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
138
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Posted - 2016.09.02 15:44:32 -
[26] - Quote
"But but but... muh consequences!"
They should have dumped attributes when they dumped the attribute enhancing skills, which were just compounding the original problem. I'm all for finally getting that stupid system out of the game. |
Bubba Freedom
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.09.03 10:04:13 -
[27] - Quote
I've played in both eras of skill training we've had so far. Ths current system is better than the old one, which is actually relatively simple compared to some I've seen. Yes the system is a pain, however between skill injectors and remaps, if you manage them properly, it's not all that bad of a system. Not to the point personally that it would be worth rewriting half the game. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2981
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Posted - 2016.09.03 13:19:29 -
[28] - Quote
Bubba Freedom wrote:I've played in both eras of skill training we've had so far. Ths current system is better than the old one, which is actually relatively simple compared to some I've seen. Yes the system is a pain, however between skill injectors and remaps, if you manage them properly, it's not all that bad of a system. Not to the point personally that it would be worth rewriting half the game.
how would setting all attributes to one number require rewriting half the game?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2219
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Posted - 2016.09.06 10:45:37 -
[29] - Quote
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gregorius Goldstein wrote:EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right?
You are correct in your understanding.
This whole argument is based on the lack of patience. Children these days are conditioned for immediate reward and can't get their arms around the satisfaction of completing long term goals. They derive no pleasure from earning, just attaining. This is an example of the fall of modern society.
Donnachadh is a perfect example "What was in times past is not relevant to what is today." This is precisely the line of thinking that shackles us to a rise and fall species. The further we rise, the more convenient it is to forget.
We are doomed as a society and CCP is a pawn forced to adjust a rich and beautiful game to the falling standards and whims of a self indulgent player base.
If you take anything from this thread - it's learn how to fish - it may save your life.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3014
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:08:27 -
[30] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Gregorius Goldstein wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gregorius Goldstein wrote:EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not. But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake. good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope I am quite new so let me ask: Attributes don't affect my acutal skills but only the time needed to learn them, right? You are correct in your understanding. This whole argument is based on the lack of patience. Children these days are conditioned for immediate reward and can't get their arms around the satisfaction of completing long term goals. They derive no pleasure from earning, just attaining. This is an example of the fall of modern society. Donnachadh is a perfect example "What was in times past is not relevant to what is today." This is precisely the line of thinking that shackles us to a rise and fall species. The further we rise, the more convenient it is to forget. We are doomed as a society and CCP is a pawn forced to adjust a rich and beautiful game to the falling standards and whims of a self indulgent player base. If you take anything from this thread - it's learn how to fish - it may save your life.
Yet my argument had nothing to do with patience at all. It was built around not being punished for wanting to fill a particular role in eve by losing sp
Citadel worm hole tax
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