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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18065
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Posted - 2016.09.18 04:39:16 -
[1] - Quote
Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18067
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 08:43:09 -
[2] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal
Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
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Posted - 2016.09.18 11:30:44 -
[3] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:baltec1 wrote:Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled. Also it increases the risk for the gankers. If I put all my stuff in one freight container and then it is 50/50 that it drops. I thought you had a strong background in economics and statistics? It doesn't increase risk. 50/50 is still 50/50, whether it comes in one chunk or many tiny ones. Gank 10 freighters and it balances out, because every now and then a freight container full of goodies will drop.
Way more likely to get paid if the freighter is stuffed with 100 individual stacks than just the one big one. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
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Posted - 2016.09.18 11:33:20 -
[4] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about. Frankly the DST should not have gotten this hold anyway, it should be a normal hold so people can have the option to fit cargo extenders. This I disagree with, because the DST's are simply awesome ships with the current way they can be fit.
They took away the choice of cargo or tank. Thats not good in my book as it is effectively CCP saying you are too dumb to make that choice for yourself. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 13:38:25 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Not sure they really did considering there are still people who cargo fit them
They tend to get called plonkers. Adding cargo extenders to a 3k hold when you have a built in 60k hold isn't something most of us are going to do.
Its an oddity I have seen happen to a few ships, the blockade runner is a fine example. I have yet to understand why it gets immunity to cargo scanners when it spends the entire time its in space cloaked and thus unscannable. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 14:50:32 -
[6] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Faylee Freir wrote: It doesnt matter who it nerfs or buffs. Its a bad mechanic that needs to be looked at. The fact that gankers primarilly use it doesnt matter. If there were another activity that resulted in potential billions being scooped up in a risk averse manner, i would want that addressed as well.
Rewarding stupid is never a good move. Ever. How is this change rewarding stupid?
There is already a rather easy way to stop this from happening. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 15:00:27 -
[7] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:But again this isn't about ganking and freighters. It's about a way to work around the crim watch system. A system that was put in place so that actions would have easily predictable and intuitive consequences. This practice undermines that goal Ganking is the only reason this is getting whined about. Sure, youre right but I dont see the complaints as unjustified or "just another nerf to ganking" I see this as a fundamental issue in risk vs reward where a system of mechanics is being allowed to be bypassed in order to secure your reward while minimizing the risk in going suspect. I have been heavily involved in ganking myself and have different feelings depending on the specific part being discussed. I dont think im extreme towards either side of the ganking arguments because I know that there are reasonable counters as well as a few things that I find issues with... For example I think that haulers and players have all the necessary tools and information to not get bumped or ganked in the first place. I know that once you get bumped and the gank is likely to happen, there are still ways to escape or make the gank unprofitable, so I consider the actual act of ganking about as balanced as you can make it. Then we move on to looting the wreck where I find that not having to go suspect by looting into a fleet hangar isnt in line with the risk / reward. So this isnt about nerfing ganking specifically because I hate ganking. Thats simply not true becsuse I enjoy ganking. I did hyperdunking when it was at its prime and was able to both do it completely solo and with small groups of people. Its about bringing balance to a part of someones gameplay that is bypassing a set of mechanics put in place. I understand the need and want to preserve any edge or advantage in any of your preferred playstyles of gameplay, because I know plenty of gankers that are very extreme and hypocritical when it comes to balancing and nerfs to PvE and other various carebear things. In the end, everyone has an agenda and I dont fault people for pushing theirs. This is purely about balance though.
Frankly, if we are going to nerf this then it should be in the form of taking away the fleet bay and making it have a normal cargo bay again. DST should never have had this in the first place. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 16:02:36 -
[8] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: Sure thats an option, but I think the DST's fleet hangar has legit usefullness outside of looting gank wrecks. The balancing issues surrounding the DST isnt relevant here when you start bringing up the fact that it can't be scanned or can perform the cloak+mwd trick because even if you opt to rebalance the DST there is still the Orca that you can use.
Yeah I would say thay the easiest way to counter the DST looting would be to get bumps on it or to actuslly gank it yourself but I dont really see those as viable options in this situation. Just because something has a few way it could possibly be countered doesnt mean its practical or that the mechanic isnt flawed.
Gets even easier than that. Simply put your junk in a freight container and nothing but a freighter can loot the wreck. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18074
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 16:23:24 -
[9] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:ummm .... freight container? Contracts? Issue.
The people getting ganked tend to not be the likes of red freight |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18083
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Posted - 2016.09.19 04:12:46 -
[10] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Faylee Freir wrote: Sure thats an option, but I think the DST's fleet hangar has legit usefullness outside of looting gank wrecks. The balancing issues surrounding the DST isnt relevant here when you start bringing up the fact that it can't be scanned or can perform the cloak+mwd trick because even if you opt to rebalance the DST there is still the Orca that you can use.
Yeah I would say thay the easiest way to counter the DST looting would be to get bumps on it or to actuslly gank it yourself but I dont really see those as viable options in this situation. Just because something has a few way it could possibly be countered doesnt mean its practical or that the mechanic isnt flawed.
Gets even easier than that. Simply put your junk in a freight container and nothing but a freighter can loot the wreck. Sure that could work some of the time. How much ehp do freight containers have? Im not trying to make it impossible for gankers to secure their loot. Im just wanting it to be balanced and make sense.
Something like 500 hp. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18105
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Posted - 2016.09.19 18:38:16 -
[11] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Well maybe Endie can get CCP to buff container EHP?
Why would anyone want or need that to happen?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18133
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Posted - 2016.09.21 21:58:43 -
[12] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: All I'm saying is that this isn't about nerfing ganking. Sure it might nerf gankers in the fact that they can no longer use a ****** throwaway alt to scoop billions of loot into a DST's fleet hangar.
If freighters use freight containers then this tactic won't work anyway. We already have a counter to this. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18133
|
Posted - 2016.09.21 22:11:28 -
[13] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Faylee Freir wrote: All I'm saying is that this isn't about nerfing ganking. Sure it might nerf gankers in the fact that they can no longer use a ****** throwaway alt to scoop billions of loot into a DST's fleet hangar.
If freighters use freight containers then this tactic won't work anyway. We already have a counter to this. Sure if the freighter uses a freight container then you have to put a freighter at risk to secure the loot. So looking back at ganks in hisec, the number of freighters that are using freight containers is hilariously low... too low for you to use that as an excuse of actual examples of common risk in ganking. Yeah it happens, but its much more common for the loot to fit inside of a DST with a trip or two.
Doesn't matter if its getting used, point is its there already and super easy and cheap to do. That people choose not to use it is up to them. Frankly, why should this not be the responsibility of the haulers? Why should CCP yet again step in if haulers are not willing to do it themselves? |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18140
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Posted - 2016.09.22 09:43:10 -
[14] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: Thanks for reinforcing my point. People dont use them because they arent a necessety for hauling stuff around. People shouldnt be pressure into using them just so they can force gankers to go suspect in a freighter in order to secure loot. In your opinion wjat is the point of using these containers?
This is the problem with a lot of haulers, they don't think they should have to do anything when it comes to their own security. If haulers did actually do this then this issue of yours would be gone. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18145
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Posted - 2016.09.22 11:43:29 -
[15] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Faylee Freir wrote: Thanks for reinforcing my point. People dont use them because they arent a necessety for hauling stuff around. People shouldnt be pressure into using them just so they can force gankers to go suspect in a freighter in order to secure loot. In your opinion wjat is the point of using these containers?
This is the problem with a lot of haulers, they don't think they should have to do anything when it comes to their own security. If haulers did actually do this then this issue of yours would be gone. I agree that haulers have the sole responsibility for making sure they are taking the proper precautions such as scouting, using intel channels, webbing frigates, and more. You just dont make sense because using containers doesnt make you less likely to get ganked. Its not a method of defense or deterrance.
It would increase safety as gankers would want to target the people who allow them to use this trick. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18152
|
Posted - 2016.09.22 16:44:39 -
[16] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: Thats proven false by the amount of freighters that are killed without freight containers. Its not a deterrance at all because theyve only ever lost a small handful of freighters while going suspect.. Even on top of AG they still manage to get them out... Hell ive personally done it too when i was hyperdunking. Looted 50b and went suspect in an expanded Obelisk with no webber and warped away to safet with the help of a MMJD.
So no containers arent something they worry about.
Because you are not using them. Same with web alts, escort logi, scouts, breaking your expensive load into smaller cheap loads and so on.
I recall the ice interdictions and all of the bitching by miner over how easy it was to kill them for profit. We are talking multiple threads every day for months on end. The reality was that out of 600 exhumers we killed in the first 2 weeks of the caldari ice interdiction not a single one fitted a tank.
If you don't use the tools available then you wont see their benefit. Load your junk into a freight container and force gankers to use a freighter to scoop the loot. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18155
|
Posted - 2016.09.22 18:10:52 -
[17] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: Hello, im a broken record. You obviously arent reading because the existance of containers in a freighter is not a deterrance for gankers. Sure they get screwed every once in a while where all the loot is in a can and the can burns, but it hasnt slowed them down yet.
So get promoting then. When people ask for hauling advice tell them to use them.
As I said, haulers have tools, that they do not use them is not the fault of the gankers. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18158
|
Posted - 2016.09.22 21:23:40 -
[18] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote: This tool you speak of isnt a tool at all. Containers in a freighter have no effect on protecting the cargo nor does it make the gankers recalculate their strategy.
Ive explained this twice now. Do you need to see a physician?
There are two freighters, both have 4 bil in the hold but one of them is lugging their cargo in freight containers. Gankers can only go for one target so they go for the better target. The freighter with the freight containers gets away with it because the gankers can't filter his cargo through a DST.
Again, you have the tools to make yourself safer. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18161
|
Posted - 2016.09.23 09:39:57 -
[19] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:I will repeat this again for the people here that seem to have a lack of reading comprehension. This is not intended as a replacement for haulers using their brains before loading 8b+ into a freighter with no support... This idea was never even pitched as such a replacement.
This isn't a calling for CCP to fix a mechanic so that gankers won't want to gank freighters because I know very well that it won't stop. I don't want ganking to stop. I enjoy killing freighters and jump freighters myself. If you guys could stop parroting the same stuff that has nothing to do with the points I'm making then you will see that this is purely about the looting mechanic itself. It's a bad mechanic. It allows you to bypass crimewatch. It should be changed. Just because that is your intent does not mean that won't be the effect. Removal of the watchlist was not intended to kill focused HS wardecs...but it did.
Its a hypothetical exercise.
If you have two freighters with the same fittings, same piloting and the same amount of isk in the hold but one of them has its cargo in freight containers then the one with freight containers is less likely to be the one targeted because its harder to loot.
Again, we have the equipment in game to stop DST filtering. Its cheap, easy to find and easy to use. |
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