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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
0
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Posted - 2016.09.06 10:23:09 -
[1] - Quote
Basic idea: Introduce a smaller freighter that's in between DST and a normal freighter while having increased defences.
Stats: - around 250k m-¦ - increased EHP compared to a normal freighter (so it trades cargo space for EHP) - slightly more agile and faster than a normal freighter - one for each race - only low slots just like a freighter - uses same skills as a freighter
pros: - in between options are good, right now the gap in cargo/EHP/speed is just too big - it doesn't make DST useless as it has no mid or high slots - it'll be faster and more secure for people who aren't looking for max bulk hauling (just like how each race has a small/fast hauler and a big one)
cons: - none?
Yes I know the orca exists but it's a completely different beast. I really do think there's a market for an in between freighter especially if it trades cargo space for increased EHP. To avoid overlap or power creep with DST and the Orca it'll only have low slots just like a freighter, meaning it's never going to be anything other than a basic "move stuff from A to B" without the cloak, mwd and whatever else one can think up.
I realise I'm not the first with this but when I played (5 years ago) we were asking for something like this and it still hasn't happened. Ideas and discussion very much welcomed. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3014
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Posted - 2016.09.06 10:59:17 -
[2] - Quote
Looking for an orca
Almost perfectly described a jf
/thread
Citadel worm hole tax
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
0
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:12:42 -
[3] - Quote
More room than an orca, increased defences compared to an orca. Doesn't have any of the other options.
Doesn't have the skill requirement or price of the JF. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3014
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:22:50 -
[4] - Quote
i'm sorry but you want to add a ship identical to one already in game and just remove the jump drive
its nothing more than a redundant unneeded ship
you can already get decent tank out of a freighter and decent cargo out of an orca if you dont have the isk for a jf
Citadel worm hole tax
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
0
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:33:58 -
[5] - Quote
According to that logic you might as well remove all normal BS the Black Ops are based on, they're cheaper but do the same thing minus a few options and require less skills. If fact, you might as well remove most T1 variants of T2 ships. They do exactly the same thing but are cheaper, with less skills required and a few less options.
An in between option with increased EHP, being slightly faster than a normal freighter but without the silly cost and "gank me" sign of a JF has merit. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3014
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:45:22 -
[6] - Quote
Quote: An in between option with increased EHP, being slightly faster than a normal freighter but without the silly cost of a JF has merit.
and is called an orca
i want you to try using a BLOPS in the same way you use a T1 BB then i want you to use a JF in the same way you want this new ship to work. Then you can see why that comparison is silly
Citadel worm hole tax
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45019
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:50:18 -
[7] - Quote
It's a no from me on this idea.
Can be easily achieved with a JF (up to around 340,000 m^3), or an Orca at slightly smaller total volume (up to about 183,000 m^3).
There's no gap that this idea fills.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1402
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Posted - 2016.09.06 11:57:59 -
[8] - Quote
Nope. Just fly more often or make a new kind of ship that is more helpful in EVE than any other boat would be.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
0
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Posted - 2016.09.06 13:58:10 -
[9] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Quote: An in between option with increased EHP, being slightly faster than a normal freighter but without the silly cost of a JF has merit.
and is called an orca i want you to try using a BLOPS in the same way you use a T1 BB then i want you to use a JF in the same way you want this new ship to work. Then you can see why that comparison is silly
You mean both are sub optimal for the normal stuff (BO in basic stats, proposed freighter with less cargo) while requiring a lot more skills and adding things the T1 doesn't need while you do have to pay through the nose for it. I'd say the comparison is quite on par, really.
Scipio Artelius wrote:It's a no from me on this idea.
Can be easily achieved with a JF (up to around 340,000 m^3), or an Orca at slightly smaller total volume (up to about 183,000 m^3).
There's no gap that this idea fills.
- JF with that amount of cargo has similar EHP to a normal freighter while being 6 times the cost. Given the regularity of random freighter ganks that makes no sense whatsoever.
- Orca doesn't get to 180K, it gets ~100k cargo + 40k fleet hangar, in that fit it has 80k EHP. Makes no sense whatsoever to fit or use it that way
elitatwo wrote:Nope. Just fly more often or make a new kind of ship that is more helpful in EVE than any other boat would be.
You're asking for overpowered stuff, I'm asking for balanced stuff that fills a gap.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1082
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Posted - 2016.09.06 16:27:09 -
[10] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote: JF with that amount of cargo has similar EHP to a normal freighter while being 6 times the cost. Given the regularity of random freighter ganks that makes no sense whatsoever.
...except that it can immediately just jump out to safety the moment its spidey sense starts tingling?
I don't think you understand ganking at all. The HP something has isn't a deterrent at all, it's a challenge. The only defense is to not get caught in the first place, and that's exactly what JFs are amazing at. Honestly more JFs are probably dying to the super-trick in lowsec these days than to random Hi-Sec ganks.
I have lost some 1266 ships between all my characters, yet I have never lost one of my freighters. Why is that?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
0
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Posted - 2016.09.06 16:52:39 -
[11] - Quote
In high sec ganks EHP and ship cost is part of the equation, together with possible profit and amount of lulz to be had. Stating otherwise is either disingenuous or a result of not using the right perspective: a normal freighter is a high sec ship or used with jump bridges, the days of freighters runs into 0.0 are long gone. Outside that there's the JF.
This idea, being based on a normal freighter, is thus meant for HS use for the most part and as such any logic about "well why don't you just jump away using your magical cyno that magically was ready to be used even though you crossed HS, when you suddenly see a bunch of Catalysts on the gate in HS" is not realistic.
Here's a good example, profit is pretty much nill and is fully done because it's an 8 bil ship so purely for lulz. A smaller, faster freighter with slightly more EHP but at similar cost and skills compared to a normal freighter is something entirely different from a JF, its EHP/cost equation gives it a reason to exist without being overpowered or silly.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3023
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Posted - 2016.09.06 18:20:08 -
[12] - Quote
the only equation when going to gank something in HS is
"do we have enough guys to get that"
most of us are just trying to pass the time till something interesting happens on our mains. you can search zkill where its full of empty industrials of all types
Citadel worm hole tax
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 18:34:51 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the only equation when going to gank something in HS is
"do we have enough guys to get that"
most of us are just trying to pass the time till something interesting happens on our mains. you can search zkill where its full of empty industrials of all types
Thanks for admitting that you have ulterior motives in this regard. A freighter as described is not in your personal interest :)
Also, don't lie: expensive but relatively easy to hit is where the "fun" is. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3024
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Posted - 2016.09.06 19:20:02 -
[14] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote: Thanks for admitting that you have ulterior motives in this regard. A freighter as described is not in your personal interest :)
Also, don't lie: expensive but relatively easy to hit is where the "fun" is.
you do understand almost everyone in eve needs to use haulers right? like all the time and the ones who don't still rely on them.
and i know this may be hard for some one with severe risk adversity but there is a reason we love to target obs it isn't because they are easy its because they are hard
Citadel worm hole tax
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 21:49:16 -
[15] - Quote
Using faceless alts and throwaway ships to gank people who don't shoot back is the epitome of being risk averse.
Either way, back on topic. Having demonstrated that the JF nor the Orca are a viable alternative as an intermediate freighter it looks as if there is a gap between the DST and the normal freighter, a gap that I'm sure people would make use of if it would be filled. Apparently gankers aren't too happy about this idea and that in and of itself sounds like a recommendation to me. Especially so because the proposal isn't overpowered or silly. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3027
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Posted - 2016.09.06 21:55:45 -
[16] - Quote
where is the gap in 75km -> 140km ->350 km?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4739
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Posted - 2016.09.06 21:57:52 -
[17] - Quote
Except that you haven't demonstrated that at all, since both the orca and the jump freighter sit comfortably in the gab between the DST and the freighter (and the rorqual if you happen to not be in highsec), with tank, agility, escape methods etc, are faster than a regular freighter...
Literally what is the difference between an orca and what you're asking for, besides HURR MY SKILLS, which is nonsensical considering the damn thing takes less than three weeks to train into from a brand new character? |
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises Goonswarm Federation
478
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:02:19 -
[18] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Except that you haven't demonstrated that at all, since both the orca and the jump freighter sit comfortably in the gab between the DST and the freighter (and the rorqual if you happen to not be in highsec), with tank, agility, escape methods etc, are faster than a regular freighter...
Literally what is the difference between an orca and what you're asking for, besides HURR MY SKILLS, which is nonsensical considering the damn thing takes less than three weeks to train into from a brand new character?
I've also heard the lack of jingle in his purse, and the complaint of being easily gankable. Just Say No To Poors.
Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:10:09 -
[19] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Except that you haven't demonstrated that at all, since both the orca and the jump freighter sit comfortably in the gab between the DST and the freighter (and the rorqual if you happen to not be in highsec), with tank, agility, escape methods etc, are faster than a regular freighter...
Literally what is the difference between an orca and what you're asking for, besides HURR MY SKILLS, which is nonsensical considering the damn thing takes less than three weeks to train into from a brand new character?
1) cargo room - Orca gets to 140k max 2) having that max cargo fitting means it has no tank meaning it's a lulz gank target incapable of actually moving stuff that requires such cargo space
3) JF is a lulz gank target in high sec because it's too expensive what what is it, in high sec. Its use it outside HS.
I'm sure this doesn't need explaining.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2670
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:13:44 -
[20] - Quote
You are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:17:03 -
[21] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:You are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.
I'd say that there is a use and need for an intermediate hauler with increased defences because both the JF and Orca aren't viable in that role.
It's no different from how most races have 2 different haulers, a faster smaller one and a slower bigger one that's an easier gank target. There's a use for the Iteron 5 and there's a use for the Nereus: different stats, different sizes, different speeds, different survivability. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4740
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:17:49 -
[22] - Quote
Please explain HOW it's even possible to lose a jump freighter to gankers, assuming you have a pulse. Have you never heard of an exit cyno?
How much EHP do you want your new baby freighter to have? Why do you think that is acceptable, and that an entirely new ship class needs to be added because you cannot be bothered to use a scout/webbing alt, and wish to completely avoid fitting compromises.
Why do you even perceive a gap here? What role are you trying to fill that a normal freighter can't do?
If you're going to accuse me of whatever the hell that edit was, can you maybe not act like a tremendous homophobe? |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:41:44 -
[23] - Quote
I'll explain it again:
- a JF is worth its money IF you make use of the jump capability, ie outside high sec. IN high sec it's just a very expensive small freighter that's even more of a gank target due to its cost. If you want to increase its limited base cargo (~170k) then you drop EHP to normal freighter levels making it even more of a hilarious gank target. In high sec a JF is like a fish out of water, its capabilities aren't used and thus its price/performance is completely whack.
If you use a freighter you generally cover quite a few systems which means that having an exit cyno (which in itself is a bit silly for a high sec used ship) doesn't work because you'll move out of reach so easily. This would mean that you'd have to have several cynos all across low sec, close to high sec to cover the distances. Even mentioning it as a valid escape route for a high sec ship is silly and unrealistic.
- An Orca lacks the pure cargo space and if you'd fit for cargo space it's be a hilarious and obvious gank target, also fitting for cargo means it can't do cloak/mwd trick because it'll be way too slow to align meaning it would still have to accelerate after decloaking, making it a lol-easy 80k EHP gank target with 140k M-¦ cargo on board. IF you tank it then its cargo capability drops to ~70k making it useless again.
Neither are a logical and viable option if you're looking for a HS intermediate hauler. Now if my idea would be entirely silly and overpowered then I could understand why people are against it but it's not overpowered at all, it is in fact quite balanced.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:48:22 -
[24] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:How much EHP do you want your new baby freighter to have?
Not much. Stats wise I'd probably give is ~20% more agility and speed while having some 30-40% more EHP compared to a normal freighter, which given that it's less of 1/3rd of the cargo sounds sensible to me. Again, I'm not looking for overpowered "can tank Cthulhu himself" lol levels of tank but lets be honest ganking freighters is just too easy.
It would be a combination of increased speed, increased survivability at the cost of much less cargo, requiring the same skills as a normal freighter and probably for a similar price/cost. Not OP, not unbalanced. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4740
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Posted - 2016.09.06 22:55:20 -
[25] - Quote
It is not possible to gank a jump freighter if the pilot is awake, thanks to the existence of exit cynos.
If you are a jump freighter pilot and you do not have an exit cyno at all times, you should immediately sell your jump freighter, because you are not capable of using it.
EHP is kind of irrelevant on freighters, the way to keep them alive is to not get caught in the first place. By using scouts, webs, agility fits etc.
JF jump range is huge. It' really not hard to position an exit cyno to protect your seven billion isk investment, if you can't be bothered to do that then see previous comment.
The very fact that you think exit cynos are silly and unrealistic proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain what is silly and pointless about being able to simply jump away from a gank team before they can even lock you. Do you not think an escape button is a good investment?
hell. What are you hauling in your baby freighter that a real freighter cannot cover with a sensible fit? What kind of EHP do you want from your baby freighter? What sort of pricetag do you see it having? Why should an entirely new ship class be added because you simply cannot be bothered to use the tools already available to you? |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 23:01:16 -
[26] - Quote
Most of your questions are explained in the post above. Your logic is backwards btw, you're stating that if you're using an 8 bil ship you better be ready to have an exit strategy and you're right on that, thing is that I'm saying "the concept of flying an 8 bil ship in high sec, sans cargo, is a silly notion given the prevalence of ganking. I'll gladly trade pure cargo space for slightly increased speed and EHP".
On Cyno range, lets pick a fairly logical route: Jita to Agil. That is going to require more than one cyno location. And again, the whole "use the cyno dummy" stems from the JF not being a HS logical ship which is exactly WHY I'd like to have an alternative. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3505
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Posted - 2016.09.06 23:05:53 -
[27] - Quote
So a freighter with inertia stabilisers?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1402
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Posted - 2016.09.06 23:07:33 -
[28] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:...blurrbhhh... elitatwo wrote:Nope. Just fly more often or make a new kind of ship that is more helpful in EVE than any other boat would be. You're asking for overpowered stuff, I'm asking for balanced stuff that fills a gap.
lolwut? (it's new word I just learned..)
What -ship am I suggesting you make in an online world with more than one player on? You can find the answer in all o7 show on twitch, youtube, facetube, twittle, read-stumble and whatnot.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
2
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Posted - 2016.09.06 23:11:25 -
[29] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:So a freighter with inertia stabilisers?
Bulkheads and istabs. Yes, sortof. Thing is of course that said ship would have these stats as base allowing for modules to augment them further. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
733
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Posted - 2016.09.06 23:58:26 -
[30] - Quote
I can see where OP is coming from: need to transport stuff but don't want to exceed 1bil in cargohold ... find cargohold 70% empty but it'd still take three DST runs to get there (or two Orca runs but those warp slower so no-go) am I right?
Bite the bullet man. Use a DST. I too would buy a demi-freighter if I could but it'd probably have to be slower, wouldn't have a MWD slot to get in warp and at the end of the day, I'd amount to the same.
In other news, I did post a proposal for an improved faction DST and even I don't know if I'm serious or not. 40 jumps in a DST is painful. 40 jumps in an Orca is painful. 40 jumps in a Freighter is painful. Basically you just have to sit down and get it over with because somehow, the goods gotta get there. Another transport won't make it any less painful I'm afraid. |
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