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Lugh Crow-Slave
3071
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Posted - 2016.09.10 12:56:10 -
[121] - Quote
O.o rain is my alt how did you come to that conclusion
and what about the environment makes it so cooperation makes no sense?
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
14
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Posted - 2016.09.10 13:09:22 -
[122] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:O.o rain is my alt how did you come to that conclusion
and what about the environment makes it so cooperation makes no sense?
Basic high sec travelling outside war time. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3071
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Posted - 2016.09.10 13:14:58 -
[123] - Quote
why should that mean you don't need support for a capital? could it be you think HS is safe?
but no really why did you decide rain was my alt rather than the other celtic themed toons if she ever logs back in i have to tell her
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
15
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Posted - 2016.09.10 13:23:46 -
[124] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:why should that mean you don't need support for a capital? could it be you think HS is safe?
but no really why did you decide rain was my alt rather than the other celtic themed toons if she ever logs back in i have to tell her
Safe no, where did you get that from. But an empty ship that requires 20-30 pilots to gank should simply not be a target in and of itself, that makes no sense.
Given how both character joined the same corp on the same day and the overall history it's a reasonable assumption to make. Also, I like how you're actively avoiding me pointing out your clown losses btw. Your widow loss (how apt) show a hilarious lack of understanding.
Either way, back on topic. There's a use for an intermediate ~250k cargo hauler that isn't super expensive just because it has a jump drive tacked onto it. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
748
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Posted - 2016.09.10 13:29:09 -
[125] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: i'm not sure that follows the tank on a freighter doesn't discourage ganking but it does allow your fleet to help save you with links/rr and the tank current freighters have is more than enough for that. It's just for some reason ppl think freighters should be the only capital that doesn't need a support fleet
Just ...... don't go there. Comparing freighters to capital gameplay always comes off as slightly ******** knowing my carrier gets over one million EHP AND can shoort back - with a similar ship hangar to a bowhead.
So, what do we do about that?
Shall we just buff freighter EHP x3 then to bring them "on par" or shall we walk away silently and not push the whole "But it's a Capital!" argument? |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
15
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Posted - 2016.09.10 13:35:59 -
[126] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: i'm not sure that follows the tank on a freighter doesn't discourage ganking but it does allow your fleet to help save you with links/rr and the tank current freighters have is more than enough for that. It's just for some reason ppl think freighters should be the only capital that doesn't need a support fleet
Just ...... don't go there. Comparing freighters to capital gameplay always comes off as slightly ******** knowing my carrier gets over one million EHP AND can shoort back - with a similar ship hangar to a bowhead. So, what do we do about that? Shall we just buff freighter EHP x3 then to bring them "on par" or shall we walk away silently and not push the whole "But it's a Capital!" argument?
That's a grand idea. It's a capital right, lets treat it like one. A Chimera can easily get 3 mil EHP these days with just T2 mods, sounds like a great plan.
What, not so happy any more about making this comparison? Me neither tbh because 3 mil EHP is silly for HS but if you want to go there then sure. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:16:03 -
[127] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: i'm not sure that follows the tank on a freighter doesn't discourage ganking but it does allow your fleet to help save you with links/rr and the tank current freighters have is more than enough for that. It's just for some reason ppl think freighters should be the only capital that doesn't need a support fleet
Just ...... don't go there. Comparing freighters to capital gameplay always comes off as slightly ******** knowing my carrier gets over one million EHP AND can shoort back - with a similar ship hangar to a bowhead. So, what do we do about that? Shall we just buff freighter EHP x3 then to bring them "on par" or shall we walk away silently and not push the whole "But it's a Capital!" argument?
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
That's a grand idea. It's a capital right, lets treat it like one. A Chimera can easily get 3 mil EHP these days with just T2 mods, sounds like a great plan.
What, not so happy any more about making this comparison? Me neither tbh because 3 mil EHP is silly for HS but if you want to go there then sure.
I didn't know there was an EHP minimum to be a capital i thought it was based on size and production method
a freighter gives up its EHP and defensive for more cargo and relies on support to protect it.
but your right its not like the other t1 industrial ships have less than 1/2 the EHP of their cruiser counterparts
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
15
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:18:19 -
[128] - Quote
Sure, we'll take half of a 3.5 mil EHP T2 fitted Chimera. 1.7m EHP. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:25:00 -
[129] - Quote
lol why would we take the number from the capital that specializes in buffer tanking
lets see most t1 idustrials get about 20k ehp cruisers can get well over 60k
considering the ehp on most caps is closer to 1.2M the 500k of an ob seems right on the $
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:29:16 -
[130] - Quote
besides that even if you don't want to call it a capital all large ships need support even BBs are not going to last long on their own
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
15
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:32:07 -
[131] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:lol why would we take the number from the capital that specializes in buffer tanking
lets see most t1 idustrials get about 20k ehp cruisers can get well over 60k
considering the ehp on most caps is closer to 1.2M the 500k of an ob seems right on the $
Just a very basic T2 DC, CSA+invul and T1 CCDFE gets you to 3.5mil EHP. Nothing special. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:36:46 -
[132] - Quote
no i mean a carrier is built around buffer tank thats like if we went and compared the t1 haulers to a drake
BLOPS Hauler
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
749
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:42:49 -
[133] - Quote
Well, bringing the point home:
you have T2 cruisers --- Deep Space Transports. you have T1 battlecruisers --- Orca. ** The Glaring Hole ** you have T1 Carriers --- Freighters.
What we're looking for, is an in-between. Less cargo but faster. There is a lot of variation in T1 industrials, blockade runners and deep space transports but (a) they have fitting options, hence the variation, (b) they're all in the cruiser/HAC ballpark.
Orcas are only nice if you want to transport Ore or ships -- for regular cargo they're really not that good.
Freighters really are a joke in my opinion, because you are given "options" that aren't really options at all. Almost as if they were invented by gankers wanting to allow people to failfit their ships. An inertial stabbed freighter can't get away from a bumper; at most it shaves 30 seconds of align time. Followed by 5 minutes in a warp tunnel.
A downsized freighter (triple bulkheads) STILL has too much free space for me, and it's too slow.
A Jump Freighter, as our friend pointed out, pays for the ability to jump. This requires multiple cyno characters, and therefore does not meet the requirement. If I need two characters, then compare it to TWO Deep Space Transports ... see where I'm going with this?
An Orca trading in ship maintenance array and ore hold for more cargo space would do the trick -- a BC/BS sized hauler.
Currently, freighters are balanced so that the regular one practically HAS to fit bulkheads to achieve a modest tank (still less than an Orca by the way), whereas Jumpfreighters can go all expanded cargohold because they're never in the line of fire. Eventually achieving the same cargospace or around 350-400k.
That's 6 or 7 DST loads. 5 Orca loads.
Those of us who turned hauling into a career, know the joys of setting up cyno alts left and right and once you do that, you can jumpfreighter everything you want relatively easy. In reality, you spend hours setting up cyno locations, moving characters, loading, jumping, awaiting the cyno ... a jumpfreighter really shines in low/null but it's not a highsec hauler.
One does not simply grab say 180k cargo, drop it in a JF and deliver in the next 40 minutes; it's an oversimplification. IF you have multiple characters and IF your chain is set up, sure. Then a JF is your tool.
Single-Player hauling low volume stops at the Orca, and it can hold no more than 70k-80k. Surely you wouldn't advise anyone to drop the DCU for a second cargoexpanded, just to be able to LOL at the lossmail? That DCU will always be there, realistically speaking. |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
15
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:45:34 -
[134] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:no i mean a carrier is built around buffer tank thats like if we went and compared the t1 haulers to a drake
Not at all, a Drake is a BC.
See this is the problem when you do the "they're capitals lol, they're fleet ships so you gotta treat them like that. how dare you fly a freighter solo" silly logic. It bites you in the arse and now you have to back pedal left&right about it.
So lets not go there and drop that silly notion. Freighters in high sec that don't have silly cargo on board shouldn't require 4 alts and a fleet to move around, if you use that as an excuse for why they're so easy to gank then you're being disingenuous. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 14:57:45 -
[135] - Quote
O.o again ehp has nothing to do with being a capital and even BBs and BCs need support all larger ships do. why should any one ship be able to solo 30? and tbh you don't need 4 alts you only need one with a web
BLOPS Hauler
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:04:22 -
[136] - Quote
ummm.... that's some great philosophy but does it actually address anything we said?
You web a freighter usually, yes. This still gives you 5 minutes warptunnel but rather than 45 sec you're in warp in 5. Cool.
Neither of us asked to solo 30 dudes- we want to move cargo. At acceptable speeds.
2 characters = 2 DST = 120 m3 moving at around 3-3.5 AU/sec. You're halfway there convincing me to sell my freighter but nowhere near offering an alternative to propelling 200k at acceptable hyperspeed velocities through highsec ;-) |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
16
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:06:08 -
[137] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:tbh you don't need 4 alts you only need one with a web
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the tank on a freighter doesn't discourage ganking but it does allow your fleet to help save you with links/rr
So which is it?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:08:20 -
[138] - Quote
? both you don't need RR/links but if you *** up the ehp will let those things save you not only that but ppl do use these outside of HS you know that right
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
16
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:14:13 -
[139] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:? both you don't need RR/links but if you *** up the ehp will let those things save you not only that but ppl do use these outside of HS you know that right
At this point you're just full of ****, not saying you weren't before but now it's just painstakingly obvious to anyone. We on the other hand, the people asking for something that isn't silly or overpowered and actually rather logical and understandable, will simply continue and probably have to deal with yet another batch uniformed meme clowns who state things that simply aren't true.
Instead of polluting the forum even more with your nonsense how about you take a break, do some soul searching and try to comprehend the enormity of that **** fit Widow lossmail. If you don't see how or why that thing is so bad then that just kinda proves the point even more. QED. |
Zerzzes Markarian
Andraste.
5
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:15:24 -
[140] - Quote
Yoou still haven't given us concrete numbers of what you want. If you are the uber-smart 'I-know-it-all' player that you claim to be, that shouldn't be a problem. The we dumb idiots will all be enlightened.
I think it speaks for itself that you don't use your main for this thread. |
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
16
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:19:55 -
[141] - Quote
Zerzzes Markarian wrote:Yoou still haven't given us concrete numbers of what you want. If you are the uber-smart 'I-know-it-all' player that you claim to be, that shouldn't be a problem. The we dumb idiots will all be enlightened.
I think it speaks for itself that you don't use your main for this thread.
Learn to read the OP. If you can't figure it out from that first post then you should probably join Lugh's soul searching session. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:21:24 -
[142] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:If you don't see how or why that thing is so bad then that just kinda proves the point even more. QED.
lol so its bad because you say its bad and your evidence is just "i wouldn't understand?" rather than pointing out why it is bad?
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
16
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:23:39 -
[143] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Vincent Pelletier wrote:If you don't see how or why that thing is so bad then that just kinda proves the point even more. QED. lol so its bad because you say its bad and your evidence is just "i wouldn't understand?" rather than pointing out why it is bad?
Let me quote myself here:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:At this point you're just full of ****
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:27:15 -
[144] - Quote
Zerzzes- I know I'm not OP but I'll give you some numbers on what I want; maybe I can benefit from your expertise or see how I can improve on my existing hauler fits.
I didn't put hours of thought and comparison in it, I'll just give you a wet-finger approximation. Hope you can work with that.
What I dream about, after fitting:
* 180k Cargo space. (fitting options may vary between 120 - 240k) * 2.3AU / sec * 15-25 sec align time (depending on fitting; use 20 sec as a one-fits-all) * it does not HAVE to be capable of the MWD align trick, nor does it have to be able to fit a cloak. * no offensive modules nor drone bay required. * 280k EHP (corresponding to the 180k cargo space, obviously-- less space = more EHP OR faster align)
How does this sound to you? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:32:19 -
[145] - Quote
thats less tank and cargo than a freighter with just better align.... tell me again why an orca doesn't cut it
BLOPS Hauler
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:34:25 -
[146] - Quote
Because an Orca has 70-80k cargo. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:35:29 -
[147] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Because an Orca has 70-80k cargo.
orca can get 140 if you are not moving ore
BLOPS Hauler
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:37:41 -
[148] - Quote
with all cargo expanders and cargo rigs I take it? How much EHP are you getting at that point if I might ask (I don't have EFT handy atm) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:39:35 -
[149] - Quote
lol so you want cargo aaand tank.... yeah that's balanced
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:42:07 -
[150] - Quote
Making it a cloak/mwd ships would be hilarious. You could fill its whole cargohold with Pith-A Invuls, undock from Amarr, fly to Jita and dock without breaking a sweat. That is why I'm not a fan of a "super DST" or "cargo Orca", because it's too good. A "light freighter" like this is actually more dangerous to use, which is funny because ppl say this idea means I'm a risk averse carebear. Shows how good they are at reasoned logic.
Numbers based on all lvl 5, not base ship stats. Stats depend on faction obviously.
250k ish cargo 350-380k base EHP 30-34 sec align 2 AU/s
2 or 3 low slots (open to discussion) to augment stats. |
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