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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:42:36 -
[151] - Quote
Just give me the number pls- as I said I don't have EFT so I don't even know what joke you're laughing about.
Is the 140k Orca so lolworthy, then don't bring it up as an alternative. |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:43:53 -
[152] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Just give me the number pls- as I said I don't have EFT so I don't even know what joke you're laughing about.
Is the 140k Orca so lolworthy, then don't bring it up as an alternative.
You have to realise that he has no facts, reason or logic to base his nonsense on. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:45:14 -
[153] - Quote
-.- says the one who cant even tell me whats wrong with the widow
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:47:57 -
[154] - Quote
Go make a thread on reddit or C&P with a "what's wrong with this widow". See what you get. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
750
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:48:49 -
[155] - Quote
I can tell you what's wrong with the Widow. I once knew a guy who tried to run a level IV in his redeemer. He lost it - got scrammed by a rat, couldn't hit it, didn't have the tank to take it and lost one BIL. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:49:18 -
[156] - Quote
that more resistant you are to giving info (even when its just the numbers you would like to see) the more this looks like a troll thread
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:50:45 -
[157] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:I can tell you what's wrong with the Widow. I once knew a guy who tried to run a level IV in his redeemer. He lost it - got scrammed by a rat, couldn't hit it, didn't have the tank to take it and lost one BIL.
No that would still make too much sense.
This Widow shows he has no understanding of game mechanics and fitting. Either way, lets stay on topic because that's his play really, derailing. |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:52:42 -
[158] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:that more resistant you are to giving info (even when its just the numbers you would like to see) the more this looks like a troll thread
How fcking dumb are you, it's posted in the OP to add 20% agility to a freighter, add 30-40% EHP to said freighter and then drop its cargo to ~250k. It's not exactly rocket science. If you do have issues with comprehending this then I'll just point to the whole soul searching thing again. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1807
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Posted - 2016.09.10 15:55:35 -
[159] - Quote
This would be a whole lot easier to swallow if you gave a practical situation where this would be useful.
You clearly have an underlying agenda here, everyone would take you more seriously if you just told us what it is instead of just saying ' we need a fast freighter' |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 16:00:43 -
[160] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:I can tell you what's wrong with the Widow. I once knew a guy who tried to run a level IV in his redeemer. He lost it - got scrammed by a rat, couldn't hit it, didn't have the tank to take it and lost one BIL.
hmm i see your point. however there is no point in putting ECM on a widow when you have falcons and the widow can easily be used to soak damage when the enemy fleet freaks out over your ECM. in that fight the widow did just that the enemy fleet took to long to kill the widow that the panther two redeemers and the recons/bombers all made it out
EDIT:
with that said i have found the widow far favors an active tank over a buffer
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 16:03:20 -
[161] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:This would be a whole lot easier to swallow if you gave a practical situation where this would be useful.
You clearly have an underlying agenda here, everyone would take you more seriously if you just told us what it is instead of just saying ' we need a fast freighter'
No agenda other than
- DST is a great hauler, using cloak MWD. But we could do with something bigger - Orca is not a good hauler because its cargo isn't exactly great and if you fit it to have some decent tank it's almost on par with a DST, while being slow. - Freighter is mightily slow and WAY too much cargo room, it's not like you can use it realistically - apparently there's a gap in haulers cargo wise. 60-100k on the "low end" and ~550 on a freighter. - cargo wise there's the JF that sits in the middle but its cost stems from a jump drive. The cost itself makes it not a logical hauler to use
- why can't we have something in between like 250k cargo and how would that best achieved without making it overpowered or diminishing the use of other cargo ships?
Hauler wise we have Sigil and Bestower, Badger and Tayra, Nereus and Itty 5, Wreathe and Mammoth. There's a small one with increased agility and warp speed, while sporting increased defences (using cloak/mwd). There's a bigger one that hauls more but is more sluggish and has less defences. Why not have a smaller version of a freighter that is, just as all the other haulers, faster with more defences. But as it can't fit MWD or cloak that means you give it some more EHP to be in line with the whole "smaller but safer" thing.
So a freighter (thus no cloak/mwd option as that would be OP as hell) that trades raw cargo space for somewhat increased speed and some EHP on the side to kinda upset the gankers a bit. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 16:37:46 -
[162] - Quote
basically the guy wants a JF but is to poor and thinks removing a jump drive constitutes a unique ship
BLOPS Hauler
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 16:42:25 -
[163] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:basically the guy wants a JF but is to poor and thinks removing a jump drive constitutes a unique ship
Basically a heron is exactly the same as a buzzard, it's just missing one specific option. That makes them both unique.
You could replace "heron" and "buzzard" with pretty much any T1/T2 or small/larger ship in EVE and you'd end up with the same sentence. Like Badger and Tayra, Scorp and Widow, etc etc etc. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3072
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Posted - 2016.09.10 16:51:20 -
[164] - Quote
and normally i would say yes this could fill a niche if the orca/jf wasn't already there basically you want tank and cargo agi and cost but give up only a bit of cargo when compared to a freighter
Edit
also the scorp and widow are not flown even remotely the same
BLOPS Hauler
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2680
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:00:10 -
[165] - Quote
So, basically what you want is a current freighter with 12 effective low slots, but a smaller max cargo size, right? Let's crunch some numbers:
1. Obelisk -unfitted = 550,000 cargo bay, 41.2 seconds align time, 303,436 EHP, 1.4 au/sec warp speed, sig radius 10,605m
2. Obelisk with 3 Expanded Cargohold II = 1,139,970 cargo bay, 41.2 seconds align time, 191,903 EHP, 1.4 au/sec warp speed, sig radius 10,605m
3. Obelisk with 3 Prototype Hyperspatial Accelerators = 550,000 cargo bay, 41.2 seconds align time, 303,436 EHP, 2.3 au/sec warp speed, sig radius 10,605m
4. Obelisk with 3 Inertial Stabilizer II's = 550,000 cargo bay, 24.1 seconds align time, 303,436 EHP, 2.3 1.4 au/sec warp speed, sig radius 13,706m
5. Obelisk with 3 Reinforced Bulkhead II's = 387,733 cargo bay, 46.5 seconds align time, 499,040 EHP, 1.4 au/sec warp speed, sig radius 10,605m
I am using the numbers above as the baseline for your ship. That's nine free effective low slots added to the current Freighter, while taking away all the drawbacks of those additional modules, and keeping three low slots for flexibility. In exchange for that, your ship loses most of the cargo bay.
1. Presumably, your new Freighter would max out at around 250,000 cargo bay with 3 Expanded Cargohold II's, while warping at 2.3 au/sec, aligning in 24.1 seconds, and having roughly 350,000 EHP.
2. Or, it could carry roughly 150,000 m3 and warp at 3.2 au/sec with 3 Prototype Hyperspatial Accelerators, while aligning in 24.1 seconds, and having roughly 500,000 EHP.
3. Or, it could carry roughly 150,000 m3 and align in approximately 15 seconds with 3 Inertial Stabilizer II's, while warping at 2.3 au/sec, having roughly 500,000 EHP, and with a sig radius of 13,706m.
4. Or, it could carry roughly 150,000 m3 and have 750,000 EHP with 3 Reinforced Bulkhead II's, while warping at 2.3 au/sec, and aligning in 24.1 seconds.
5. Or some balanced in between version of the above...
Frankly, I don't have a problem with that ship design. I don't think it is particularly overpowered.
I just don't have much use for it when compared to a Jump Freighter that can be flown on a neutral alt with a low sec cyno alt and have almost complete safety.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:00:16 -
[166] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:also the scorp and widow are not flown even remotely the same
And why is that?
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:09:23 -
[167] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Frankly, I don't have a problem with that ship design. I don't think it is particularly overpowered.
That's because it isn't, I KNOW how this game works and I don't like OP ships at all, not even if it would benefit me. So I simply came up with an idea that, from a neutral pov, makes good sense. Whether or not one might have a need for that ship is here nor there, the massive gap in cargo space between haulers and freighter could use an intermediate solution.
FT Diomedes wrote:An Orca is arguably better - 140,000 cargo bay with all cargohold mods, 100,000 EHP, can MWD+Cloak. its cargo option is not on par with this new "light freighter" idea, it's too small to be workable and too close to a DST (cargo/align/warp seed wise) to be worth it.
[quote=FT Diomedes]I just don't have much use for it when compared to a Jump Freighter that can be flown on a neutral alt with a low sec cyno alt and have almost complete safety. Sure but having a ship cost 7-8 bil JUST because of its jump drive forces you to.... make use of its jump drive. It's circular logic really, having the options means you gotta use it.
NOT having that jump drive would create a ship around a normal freighter's price point and using the same skills. As stated earlier, you effectively swap pure cargo for some agility and safety. It's balanced just fine. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2680
|
Posted - 2016.09.10 17:13:11 -
[168] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:also the scorp and widow are not flown even remotely the same And why is that?
Because no one flies the Scorpion these days, given that a Blackbird or Griffin do the job just as well if not better. Only slightly kidding... It's been a while since I saw a Scorpion in any kind of semi-serious gang (maybe 2-3 months?). The Scorpion is too cumbersome and does not lock fast enough.
If you are going after a ratting Carrier, you should use Falcons to jam out the hostile Fighters. They do this better than Widows. The Widow can do a surprise active tank pretty well, but if you are tanking anything in a Black Ops drop, something has probably gone horribly wrong.
The only use I have for the Widow is running DED sites in hostile space. It does this beautifully. Other ships do the Black Ops battleship ganking jobs much better than the Widow (Panther or Sin).
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2680
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:14:05 -
[169] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Frankly, I don't have a problem with that ship design. I don't think it is particularly overpowered. That's because it isn't, I KNOW how this game works and I don't like OP ships at all, not even if it would benefit me. So I simply came up with an idea that, from a neutral pov, makes good sense. Whether or not one might have a need for that ship is here nor there, the massive gap in cargo space between haulers and freighter could use an intermediate solution. FT Diomedes wrote:I just don't have much use for it when compared to a Jump Freighter that can be flown on a neutral alt with a low sec cyno alt and have almost complete safety. Sure but having a ship cost 7-8 bil JUST because of its jump drive forces you to.... make use of its jump drive. It's circular logic really, having the options means you gotta use it. NOT having that jump drive would create a ship around a normal freighter's price point and using the same skills. As stated earlier, you effectively swap pure cargo for some agility and safety. It's balanced just fine.
Even when I am agreeing with you, you manage to be a combative jerk.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:16:02 -
[170] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Vincent Pelletier wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Frankly, I don't have a problem with that ship design. I don't think it is particularly overpowered. That's because it isn't, I KNOW how this game works and I don't like OP ships at all, not even if it would benefit me. So I simply came up with an idea that, from a neutral pov, makes good sense. Whether or not one might have a need for that ship is here nor there, the massive gap in cargo space between haulers and freighter could use an intermediate solution. FT Diomedes wrote:I just don't have much use for it when compared to a Jump Freighter that can be flown on a neutral alt with a low sec cyno alt and have almost complete safety. Sure but having a ship cost 7-8 bil JUST because of its jump drive forces you to.... make use of its jump drive. It's circular logic really, having the options means you gotta use it. NOT having that jump drive would create a ship around a normal freighter's price point and using the same skills. As stated earlier, you effectively swap pure cargo for some agility and safety. It's balanced just fine. Even when I am agreeing with you, you manage to be a combative jerk.
Yeah, the thread is just one listing of uninformed clown troll posts using circular logic so I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it all 17 times :D So when a normal post appears I might have trouble switching back to normality.
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:17:34 -
[171] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Vincent Pelletier wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:also the scorp and widow are not flown even remotely the same And why is that? Because no one flies the Scorpion these days, given that a Blackbird or Griffin do the job just as well if not better. Only slightly kidding... It's been a while since I saw a Scorpion in any kind of semi-serious gang (maybe 2-3 months?). The Scorpion is too cumbersome and does not lock fast enough. If you are going after a ratting Carrier, you should use Falcons to jam out the hostile Fighters. They do this better than Widows. The Widow can do a surprise active tank pretty well, but if you are tanking anything in a Black Ops drop, something has probably gone horribly wrong. The only use I have for the Widow is running DED sites in hostile space. It does this beautifully. Other ships do the Black Ops battleship ganking jobs much better than the Widow (Panther or Sin).
So you mean that the ships, through bonuses and capabilities aren't the same at all even though they look alike. Sounds familiar? |
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:27:23 -
[172] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Frankly, I think if you had provided some solid numbers up front, your idea is solid enough to be worth pursuing. Instead, you let Lugh troll you for seven pages and resorted to ad hominem attacks.
They were, in the OP. It's not very difficult for people to realise that "-50% cargo", "20% more agility and a bit of warp speed" plus "40% more EHP" isn't overpowered. One change cancels out the others making it balanced and if you give it some thought it's not an issue.
If people want to figure out if something is OP or not they can simply fire up EFT or Pyfa, read the stats you get from that and use some simple math. Would I have simply blurted out the base stats without the link to what we already have in regards to a freighter it wouldn't have helped. Mostly because the people who can't use reasoned logic based on understanding wouldn't have been able to work with the numbers either.
Lugh here isn't being a clown shoe because he thinks it's OP or the stats are too good. He's only here because "crap, with this idea I might get less JF ganks" combined with the "all changes are carebear changes" meme, like a broken record. On top of a stunted intelligence, of course.
To put it bluntly: the people who couldn't recognise whether or not the proposal is OP or not based on the first post, are also entirely unqualified to react to it or have an opinion on it. |
Iain Cariaba
3191
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:30:42 -
[173] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:Yeah, the thread is just one listing of uninformed clown troll posts using circular logic so I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it all 17 times :D So when a normal post appears I might have trouble switching back to normality.
You do realize that half the circular logic came from you, right? The personal insults didn't help you any either.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
17
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Posted - 2016.09.10 17:32:11 -
[174] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Vincent Pelletier wrote:Yeah, the thread is just one listing of uninformed clown troll posts using circular logic so I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it all 17 times :D So when a normal post appears I might have trouble switching back to normality.
You do realize that half the circular logic came from you, right? The personal insults didn't help you any either.
After explaining something 3 times one has to conclude that said person is an idiot, so I'll call him an idiot. In the mean time it keeps the thread nicely at the top. |
Iain Cariaba
3192
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:01:48 -
[175] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Vincent Pelletier wrote:Yeah, the thread is just one listing of uninformed clown troll posts using circular logic so I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it all 17 times :D So when a normal post appears I might have trouble switching back to normality.
You do realize that half the circular logic came from you, right? The personal insults didn't help you any either. After explaining something 3 times one has to conclude that said person is an idiot, so I'll call him an idiot. In the mean time it keeps the thread nicely at the top. And Lugh likely has the exact same opinion about you, having had to explain his point repeatedly.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Faylee Freir
The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group
302
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:06:47 -
[176] - Quote
Why does this thread still exist? You've had multiple people explain EXACTLY how to achieve what you want to achieve. Yet here we are with you still arguing and calling names and we keep explaining things to you.
Fitting a ship according to the task at hand should have to have pros, cons, and above all it must have balance. The current ships we have in our arsenal for hauling are all done fairly well. So between fitting your ship to accomplish the task, and your clear lack of interest in using alts or friends to complete this task safely and responsibly... I can only assume that you are just a cry baby that wants CCP to design a ship around your risk averse attitude.
Sorry, but no thanks. This isn't about preserving any style of ganking or killing, but is simply the way EVE Online works. You can't have your cake and eat it too, it'll make you fat and lazy (or are we already too late?).
HTFU
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
751
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:09:17 -
[177] - Quote
To be fair, he *did* try to stay on topic- initial response was mostly "But Why?" and "LOLOrca"
it didn't come over as a sincere attempt to move conversation along; most counterproposals were ridiculously easy to gank and constitute failfits to the highest degree.
Glad to see things are moving along now. |
Faylee Freir
The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group
302
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:26:35 -
[178] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:To be fair, he *did* try to stay on topic- initial response was mostly "But Why?" and "LOLOrca"
it didn't come over as a sincere attempt to move conversation along; most counterproposals were ridiculously easy to gank and constitute failfits to the highest degree.
Glad to see things are moving along now. What do you mean "ridiculously easy to gank"? Everything in eve online should be gankable and it's only as easy as the pilot makes it to be.
You look at the EHP of your target and look at how many ships you need to make it go boom. There's nothing hard or easy about this at all. The meta comes into play where its the haulers responsibility to not get himself caught or to not make himself a target at all. There are ways to do this, and the OP is just lazy.
HTFU
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
751
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:31:33 -
[179] - Quote
100k EHP. 140k cargo space. That's ridiculous.
But, you know ... that's just like your opinion man. I can clearly see who's actually hauling stuff and who's just EFT warrioring sitting on the undock all day. |
Faylee Freir
The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group
302
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Posted - 2016.09.10 18:38:00 -
[180] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:100k EHP. 140k cargo space. That's ridiculous.
But, you know ... that's just like your opinion man. I can clearly see who's actually hauling stuff and who's just EFT warrioring sitting on the undock all day. If you had the ship that the OP is asking for, what kind of implants would you use? How much value would you haul in it? Would you use a scout if you knew you were going through a hostile area?
Of course here, you'll say the right things but look at almost EVERYONE that gets ganked or killed. Very few of them are doing it right: triple expanded freighters hauling a few plex, triple expanded freighters hauling low m3 - high value items, freighters with nothing in their lows carrying high value items, freighter pilots autopiloting through gankers choke points with high value items, and so many more idiotic things that these people do.
There's an infinite amount of combinations for ways that these uninformed, bad, lazy, and/or brain dead people can get themselves killed. The crazy thing is that there are REALLY good methods that drastically decrease the chances of getting ganked or even bumped in the first place.
So the key here is to not get bumped, because when was the last time you saw gankers sitting on a gate waiting for your freighter to jump through so they could alpha you? I don't know if it's ever happened. People cry about bumping all the time, but these are the people that are too bad or lazy to prevent themselves from being bumped.
HTFU
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