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Lacori
Forum Alts Anonymous
16
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Posted - 2016.09.17 13:47:38 -
[571] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:]Goons aren't going to quit just because thy improve highsec mechanics for newbies, what have you been smoking?
It's some fine ****, let me tell you. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2388
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:48:33 -
[572] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then. like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly.
Skill injectors, and a month and a half train from new...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
832
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Posted - 2016.09.17 13:48:59 -
[573] - Quote
Welcome back to the forums baltec - was wondering where you went lol
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
832
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:51:11 -
[574] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then. like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly. Skill injectors, and a month and a half train from new... That is a stretch...
And then we begin the discussion:
If they've already gone and sunk a few hundred RL $$$ into the game to instantly train a freighter and load it up with valuables worth ganking...Will they *quit* when it gets blown up - or just spend another $50 to replace it?
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18058
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:51:48 -
[575] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Welcome back to the forums baltec - was wondering where you went lol
Japan for a few weeks, came back with a rice cooker |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18058
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 13:55:18 -
[576] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then. like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly. Skill injectors, and a month and a half train from new...
If you have the cash for that the newbie is either an alt and not new to EVE or has rich friends in which case they should be helping the newbie and telling them what not to do.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2731
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Posted - 2016.09.17 13:57:32 -
[577] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:The simple matter is we are talking about over all game balance, nothing to do with PvE as compared to PvP, ganking is an ISK making activity in terms of hauler/freighter just as shooting red crosses are. The risk for getting such huge rewards is obscenely imbalanced. Not at all. There is a fundamental difference between an activity that spawns resources into the universe (like most PvE) that devalues the existing resources, and one which just redistributes them amongst the players or even consumes them (like most PvP). This is a core concept of the design of a sandbox game which many people fail to grasp. Ganking generates zero ISK or resources into the economy.
One can be game-breaking and have negative impacts on the overall economy thus needs careful attention. The other has only beneficial, stimulating effects on the game economy. This is game design 101 here and, when you get right down to it, why CCP often buffs the ability of gankers and other antagonists to catch their prey.
That is not to say PvP has it's own balance issues important for a building a good game, but when considering risk vs. reward as it applies to resource generation or acquisition as you are trying to do here, more PvP is only a good thing for the economy as it consumes resources and gives reasons to build things. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7925
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Posted - 2016.09.17 14:04:36 -
[578] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The reward for a ganker is entirely dependent upon what the "victim" fits on their ship and in their holds. As for the gankers risk nothing, are we forgetting the simple fact that the gankers are going up against concord so a failed gank means they have to replace their ships. Replace their disposable ships on their disposable alts. There's ammo more expensive than ganking ships. And no, their reward is based on which victim they choose.
baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then.
You have whined about things like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly. Sure, in terms of risk/reward balance I certainly have raised them as an issues but then that's your problem if you think the only point being made is for the safety of noobs. Most ganks aren't against freighters, the vast majority of them are against much smaller ships that newbies can fly, and while there's certainly work to be done in terms of ensuring hauling is a viable playstyle (such as getting rid of infinite bumping) the biggest issue CCP are looking to address is new player retention.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2388
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 14:06:55 -
[579] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:The simple matter is we are talking about over all game balance, nothing to do with PvE as compared to PvP, ganking is an ISK making activity in terms of hauler/freighter just as shooting red crosses are. The risk for getting such huge rewards is obscenely imbalanced. Not at all. There is a fundamental difference between an activity that spawns resources into the universe (like most PvE) that devalues the existing resources, and one which just redistributes them amongst the players or even consumes them (like most PvP). This is a core concept of the design of a sandbox game which many people fail to grasp. Ganking generates zero ISK or resources into the economy. One can be game-breaking and have negative impacts on the overall economy thus needs careful attention. The other has only beneficial, stimulating effects on the game economy. This is game design 101 here and, when you get right down to it, why CCP often buffs the ability of gankers and other antagonists to catch their prey. That is not to say PvP has it's own balance issues important for a building a good game, but when considering risk vs. reward as it applies to resource generation or acquisition as you are trying to do here, more PvP is only a good thing for the economy as it consumes resources and gives reasons to build things. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.
It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18058
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Posted - 2016.09.17 14:09:27 -
[580] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Replace their disposable ships on their disposable alts. There's ammo more expensive than ganking ships. And no, their reward is based on which victim they choose.
Please show me ammo that costs over 100 mil. Then by all means please show which mechanic forces people to stuff several billion into their cargo holds.
Lucas Kell wrote: Sure, in terms of risk/reward balance I certainly have raised them as an issues but then that's your problem if you think the only point being made is for the safety of noobs. Most ganks aren't against freighters, the vast majority of them are against much smaller ships that newbies can fly, and while there's certainly work to be done in terms of ensuring hauling is a viable playstyle (such as getting rid of infinite bumping) the biggest issue CCP are looking to address is new player retention.
Fun fact here, less than 1% of people who quit EVE cite ship loss as the reason. |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2733
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Posted - 2016.09.17 14:49:55 -
[581] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment. Piracy doesn't create an income. It takes income away from one player and redirects it to another.
It's not at all the same thing when looking to balance risk vs. reward in a sandbox game.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2388
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:02:24 -
[582] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment. Piracy doesn't create an income. It takes income away from one player and redirects it to another. It's not at all the same thing when looking to balance risk vs. reward in a sandbox game.
So you are saying that a pirate is not creating an income source for himself?
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
160
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Posted - 2016.09.17 15:15:00 -
[583] - Quote
Look, if people played 'correctly' it should not be so easy guaranteed ISK for gankers. It's definitely noy game mechanics issue, but player stupidity issue.
Instead of high sec freighter through known pipes, the same hauler could have taken jump freighter route, in which case anyone wishing to gank that will have to gank it at low sec transit with all the usual low sec risk attached to it. Such thinga do happen though, drive-by doomsday, gank super, bump rorqual, etc, which all increases the ISK put on field significantly for the gankers.
Or one could have decided to run Blockade Runner, and realistically that would mean gankers having to take random chance (i.e. Completely unknown reward) or if they can't catch you at undock then suicide smartbombing BS ships.
There is absolutely no reason to move multi-billion ISK cargo in a freighter with no support through known high sec gank pipes.
Only scenarios I can think of are for Fortizar/Keepstars, but you go read up on what kind of fleet ops people have arranged to move the first keepstar - THAT is respectable preparation in moving such high value cargo.
The reason the 'reward' for courier is so low is because people do not respect their work and risk and cargo value.
There are many ways to move high value cargos with extra cost and time and preparation, which will require gankers to put in 10+ times more effort. The highest cargo value I moved personally (not on his toon obviously) was 25b ISK worth cargo through a LOT of jumps, and it needed planning and waiting and coordination.
Gankers have low risk (as in low cost) in known pipes because people insist on being lazy or cheap, and I repeat, not having respect for the game mechanics and cargo they are carrying and duh... Gankers. If one considers CODE. And friends as low-lif scum of high sec, then surely you can do better than get killed by such low-life scums?
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2733
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:24:59 -
[584] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment. Piracy doesn't create an income. It takes income away from one player and redirects it to another. It's not at all the same thing when looking to balance risk vs. reward in a sandbox game. So you are saying that a pirate is not creating an income source for himself? No, I am saying a pirate is not creating an income into the shared universe. They are taking one from someone else. No resources are generated and there is little direct effect on the fundamentals of the economy of New Eden - just a redistribution of existing items.
This has none of the problematic balance considerations that PvE presents on a single-universe, shared economy. It's also why risk vs. reward has little meaning. PvP balance is important on its own, but it is another thing altogether from the PvE income balance CCP tries to balance risk vs. reward against.
There is no way CCP can prevent a player from stuffing 100 PLEX into a shuttle and giving a lucky ganker an effective income of 1T ISK/h, although I would say from experience that all said-and-done, piracy pays less on average than blitzing level 4 missions in highsec hour after hour (which is one of the safest activities in the game) . There is no imbalance even if you want to discuss just pure ISK/h as most carebears reduce the game to. Maybe there are some lucky or talented pirates out there that can manage more than that regularly, but I have seen no evidence of that and the fact that only a handful of players try to support themselves through piracy supports that notion.
The 8 Golden Rules of Eve
Why Do They Gank?
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26853
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:35:12 -
[585] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The risk is low because people aren't generally willing to do anything to stop them, the reward is high because their victims often indulge in excessive stupidity and expect to get away with it. Not much can be done to stop them in any reliable way and everything that can carries basically zero reward. Haulers could try not doing dumb shite like afking high value cargos through chokepoints; not being a worthwhile target, because I have a (R)isk limit and pay attention to what I'm doing, generally means that they pick a dumb schmuck over me, from my perspective that's as good as stopping them. There's a reason the professional haulers have a limit on the isk value of their cargo.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:40:55 -
[586] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I'll skip over much of the repetition here. Teckos Pech wrote:This game exists for players to compete against one another in a variety of ways. That much is well understood. Further it is a sandbox, so this notion of "balanced and fair competition" when it comes to player actions is not really relevant. We are not here for some sort of Marquess of Queensberry Rules to this competition. ROFL, so when they were nerfing the hell out of force projection to break up the null blocks, I take it you were there saying "the game shouldn't be balanced because it's not relevant in a sandbox", right?
No, what I said it should be balanced on player actions. Balancing in game items is another story. I figured I was being to subtle.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
4
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Posted - 2016.09.17 15:41:51 -
[587] - Quote
Blowing up a ship injects isk into the game via insurance. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2388
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:43:10 -
[588] - Quote
Toobo wrote:Look, if people played 'correctly' it should not be so easy guaranteed ISK for gankers. It's definitely noy game mechanics issue, but player stupidity issue.
Instead of high sec freighter through known pipes, the same hauler could have taken jump freighter route, in which case anyone wishing to gank that will have to gank it at low sec transit with all the usual low sec risk attached to it. Such thinga do happen though, drive-by doomsday, gank super, bump rorqual, etc, which all increases the ISK put on field significantly for the gankers.
Or one could have decided to run Blockade Runner, and realistically that would mean gankers having to take random chance (i.e. Completely unknown reward) or if they can't catch you at undock then suicide smartbombing BS ships.
There is absolutely no reason to move multi-billion ISK cargo in a freighter with no support through known high sec gank pipes.
Only scenarios I can think of are for Fortizar/Keepstars, but you go read up on what kind of fleet ops people have arranged to move the first keepstar - THAT is respectable preparation in moving such high value cargo.
The reason the 'reward' for courier is so low is because people do not respect their work and risk and cargo value.
There are many ways to move high value cargos with extra cost and time and preparation, which will require gankers to put in 10+ times more effort. The highest cargo value I moved personally (not on his toon obviously) was 25b ISK worth cargo through a LOT of jumps, and it needed planning and waiting and coordination.
Gankers have low risk (as in low cost) in known pipes because people insist on being lazy or cheap, and I repeat, not having respect for the game mechanics and cargo they are carrying and duh... Gankers. If one considers CODE. And friends as low-lif scum of high sec, then surely you can do better than get killed by such low-life scums?
Still it is no risk and high reward which is the point I was making.
I am however very interested in what you actually mean by support, I would be fascinated to hear what you actually had covered.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:43:11 -
[589] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And you have literally no data. Yes, ships that are capable of being flown by 8 day old pilots die all the time, how well that correlates to the age of the player is completely missing. For example, how many are cyno ships? How many are people in shuttles? What about the fitting? Sure might be a T1 frig...with a complete T2 fitting? You have nothing here.
As for firms and honesty try google. Firms play plenty to protect, enhance and repair their reputations. I don't have hard data because I don't have access to CCPs databases...
So you got nothing. As I said. Yes, yes "logic" but here is the thing the reason people study data is because there are counter intuitive results.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:46:05 -
[590] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:As for ganking yes, that is exactly risk/reward. The problem is one of the parties was completely an totally foolish and imprudent. He took a significant risk with with substantial downside losses for a pathetic reward. And the other party came along and imposed that downside on him. The freighter pilot...I have no sympathy for. None. He should have known better.
And yes, the gankers have minimized their risk, good on them! That is called being smart and prudent. There is literally nothing wrong with that. ROFL, it's not risk reward if someone else takes a risk and you get a reward.
Yes, it is. Just because one party reduces their risk through prudent decisions and behavior does not change this. This is a game where you have considerable input into the level of risk you take on. Yes, so do other players, but you keep focusing on other players and not the foolish and imprudent. You have only half the story. And you are wrong.
And you do not balance the game on risk/reward. If a player is stupid and takes on tremendous risk IT IS ON THAT PLAYER. As it should be.
Lets think of it this way, a guy puts 100 PLEX in his cargo hold. Picks a fast moving ship, but gets ganked. Do we blame the guy who ganks him? Or does he share some of the blame for being dumb and putting t hat many PLEX into his cargo hold IN ANY SHIP and undocking?
You are saying, "Nope, that needs to be balanced on risk/reward." Like the difficulty in destroying that ship should somehow depend on the value of the cargo. Bullshit. If any player in this games takes on stupid levels of risk...they should expect to be ganked. Anywhere. The fact that CCP are, according to you, changing this is simply bad as it removes a fundamental aspect of this game. Looked to players on line to continue their downward trend.
The situation with freighter ganking is exactly analogous but with less pay off.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2388
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:49:27 -
[591] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment. Piracy doesn't create an income. It takes income away from one player and redirects it to another. It's not at all the same thing when looking to balance risk vs. reward in a sandbox game. So you are saying that a pirate is not creating an income source for himself? No, I am saying a pirate is not creating an income into the shared universe. They are taking one from someone else. No resources are generated and there is little direct effect on the fundamentals of the economy of New Eden - just a redistribution of existing items. This has none of the problematic balance considerations that PvE presents on a single-universe, shared economy. It's also why risk vs. reward has little meaning. PvP balance is important on its own, but it is another thing altogether from the PvE income balance CCP tries to balance risk vs. reward against. There is no way CCP can prevent a player from stuffing 100 PLEX into a shuttle and giving a lucky ganker an effective income of 1T ISK/h, although I would say from experience that all said-and-done, piracy pays less on average than blitzing level 4 missions in highsec hour after hour (which is one of the safest activities in the game) . There is no imbalance even if you want to discuss just pure ISK/h as most carebears reduce the game to. Maybe there are some lucky or talented pirates out there that can manage more than that regularly, but I have seen no evidence of that and the fact that only a handful of players try to support themselves through piracy supports that notion.
Wow, I am aware of a certain number of freighter gankers who became super rich from their activities, I am surprised at you saying that you are unaware of such people....
It is still game balance, ganking in hisec is low risk and very high rewards and affects the game massively.
This is not about a small number of dimwits stuffing a load of plex into a shuttle, nice try at deflection...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 15:56:42 -
[592] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:CCP has simply got the balance wrong in terms of Gankers, a point that Lucas Kell made very well.
No, Lucas is flat out wrong and so are you.
Risk/reward in this game involves two parties. Those who would do the ganking and those who would be ganked.
You and Lucas are arguing for, and I mean this literally, stupid.
Go ahead, over fill your freighter, don't use a scout. In fact, take absolutely no protective measures at all.
You think that because one side minimizes their exposure to risk while the other side does not...this is bad.
What is bad is that the other side has apparently not learned "Do not put all your eggs in one basket." This kind of thing should absolutely be in the game. It is an inherent feature of the game. If you are overly trusting....you can be taken advantage of.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 15:57:31 -
[593] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:So be cause it's not the gankers fault that newbies are new, game mechanics shouldn't be balanced to push people toward risk/reward balance? I'll remember that next time you ***** about carebears getting an easy ride.
Got any evidence its new players getting ganked?
No he does not.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 15:59:44 -
[594] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:So you are happy with the insane level of low risk vs massive reward in terms of gankers in hisec, so much for risk and reward .
This is just stupid. Stupid beyond belief.
If people did not over fill their freighters there would be no "insane level vs. massive reward".
It is the actions of imprudent and foolish players that are the cause here. Balancing the game to protect the foolish and imprudent given the nature of this game is wrong.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:02:57 -
[595] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So you are happy with the insane level of low risk vs massive reward in terms of gankers in hisec, so much for risk and reward . Why complain about the levels of risk gankers run when the level of risk their targets run is so low that it's not worth taking even minimal precations to avoid or mitigate the gankers? It is rather amusing to see the reaction to the point made about no risk and massive reward for hisec ganking. There is no doubt that this is massively out of balance with the concept of risk and reward in Eve, rather amusingly so.
And it is a result of stupid players--freighter pilots who over fill their freighters. They are creating the massive reward.
Solution: remove freighters from the game.
And by the way you are flat out wrong on the low risk.
While the gankers have low risk, the freighter pilots have massive risk.
Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.
Most people who talk about risk-reward don't have a ******* clue what they are talking about.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:05:00 -
[596] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dracvlad wrote:So you are happy with the insane level of low risk vs massive reward in terms of gankers in hisec, so much for risk and reward . The risk is low because people aren't generally willing to do anything to stop them, the reward is high because their victims often indulge in excessive stupidity and expect to get away with it.
No!
Stop.
I love your posts Jonah, but you are falling into Dracvlad and Lucas' false narrative here.
The risk for the gankers is low.
But the risk for fools who over fill their freighters is high. Do it frequently enough you will almost surely get ganked. That is high risk. And for those who do the ganking potentially high reward.
These foolish and imprudent players are creating this situation.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:14:00 -
[597] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then. like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly. Skill injectors, and a month and a half train from new...
And a few PLEX to afford.
So each one of these things shrinks the numbers of those newbies who are ganked. Think of a Venn diagram and each of those conditions is a smaller circle inside the circle of those who would be ganked.
How many are we actually talking about? Nobody knows, but here we have some bad posters trying to make the case against ganking the imprudent and foolish....because of the newbies!!!
Please.
And, lets look at these newbies who buy skill injectors and PLEX to get that brand new shiny freighter on day one. What does he do with it? He doesn't have lots of stuff to haul. So he starts doing courier contracts?
And gets ganked.
This is like a guy who hears about how people make money, sometimes lots of it in the stock market. He decides he wants in. So he takes $50,000 and starts investing and 2 months later is down to $15,000.
Why? Probably because he was a newbie and was foolish and imprudent and didn't sit down an think:
Those people who make money in the stock market, do they know stuff I don't know? Yes. Those people who make money in the stock market, have they been doing it a long time? Yes. Might those people who make money in the stock market have learned things I can't learn from a book, video, or other source? Yes.
So, our intrepid investor has lost money because he...jumped into the deep end without first learning to swim.
Boo fricking hoo.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:15:22 -
[598] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets try this logic then. like freighters, a ship that no newbie can fly. Skill injectors, and a month and a half train from new... If you have the cash for that the newbie is either an alt and not new to EVE or has rich friends in which case they should be helping the newbie and telling them what not to do.
Dammit...I hate it when baltec says what I say so much more succinctly.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:16:18 -
[599] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:The simple matter is we are talking about over all game balance, nothing to do with PvE as compared to PvP, ganking is an ISK making activity in terms of hauler/freighter just as shooting red crosses are. The risk for getting such huge rewards is obscenely imbalanced. Not at all. There is a fundamental difference between an activity that spawns resources into the universe (like most PvE) that devalues the existing resources, and one which just redistributes them amongst the players or even consumes them (like most PvP). This is a core concept of the design of a sandbox game which many people fail to grasp. Ganking generates zero ISK or resources into the economy. One can be game-breaking and have negative impacts on the overall economy thus needs careful attention. The other has only beneficial, stimulating effects on the game economy. This is game design 101 here and, when you get right down to it, why CCP often buffs the ability of gankers and other antagonists to catch their prey. That is not to say PvP has it's own balance issues important for a building a good game, but when considering risk vs. reward as it applies to resource generation or acquisition as you are trying to do here, more PvP is only a good thing for the economy as it consumes resources and gives reasons to build things. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here. It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment.
No income is being creating, income is being redistributed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5250
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Posted - 2016.09.17 16:17:45 -
[600] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:It is a way of creating an income, and CCP actually attempts rather badly to balance it as something that affects the game and risk and reward is a factor in that balance assessment. Piracy doesn't create an income. It takes income away from one player and redirects it to another. It's not at all the same thing when looking to balance risk vs. reward in a sandbox game. So you are saying that a pirate is not creating an income source for himself?
No, he is saying that it is not creating a new stream of in game ISK or resources. It is merely redistributing them. From those taking on massive risk, to those not.
Working as intended.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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