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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2683
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Posted - 2016.09.13 01:59:24 -
[31] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Just make it so existing specialized T1 haulers can take Black Ops bridges. I'd rather have a new T2 Hauler than break the rule of only Cov Ops Cloaky things can use Covert Bridge.
I don't really care either way. They suggested a hauler, without a Covert Ops Cloak, with a specialized bay, that could use a Covert Bridge. I don't see much point in adding a completely new hauler to fill this role.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2683
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Posted - 2016.09.13 02:27:08 -
[32] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Welp, that did it. Sorry Lugh, but if Dryson thinks this is a good idea....
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3095
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Posted - 2016.09.13 13:44:53 -
[33] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Just make it so existing specialized T1 haulers can take Black Ops bridges.
the idea of giving this ship a 60k ore bay is already making me uncomfortable with what it may break im not sure how well a bunch of minni JFs would fit
BLOPS Hauler
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
423
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Posted - 2016.09.17 02:30:11 -
[34] - Quote
I think this is a great idea. Black ops capable and thus bridgeable Ore Transport. edit to add: a 20k to 30K ore bay would be just about right.
Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.
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Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
32
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Posted - 2016.09.17 10:55:20 -
[35] - Quote
Was thinking about this for a log time. +1
At the moment a POS is the only viable action to do this kind of stuff (and it's not really stealthy in SOV null where the owner gets a nice message of you doing stuff in his system)
Would also suggest to take a look at Ice compression and the ability to mine Ice with a covops ship again, with the current Stront need/supply difference you get from fuel blocks and highsec Ice being sh*t (1 Stront, really ?) I would love being able to do some stealth mining in null to get some of that Krystallos |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3129
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Posted - 2016.09.17 11:01:02 -
[36] - Quote
Yeah me and a few others had tried to get ccp to let the endurance bridge even if they didn't want it to have a cov cloak. It would be nice if the prospect could at least fit an ice harvester with no bonus.
BLOPS Hauler
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
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Posted - 2016.09.19 09:03:25 -
[37] - Quote
Petrified wrote:I think this is a great idea. Black ops capable and thus bridgeable Ore Transport. edit to add: a 20k to 30K ore bay would be just about right. Yer somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 in Ore Bay size compare to a Miasmos sounds about right. |
FT Cold
R3d Fire Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
86
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Posted - 2016.09.20 01:21:23 -
[38] - Quote
Guess I'm OK with this, so long as it's only appreciable cargo capacity is an ore bay. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3153
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Posted - 2016.09.20 03:41:19 -
[39] - Quote
the standard bay should be much smaller than a BR. It shouldn't even be able to try and compete with it when it comes to standard hauling
BLOPS Hauler
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Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
10
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Posted - 2016.09.20 04:17:18 -
[40] - Quote
I'd also consider a low signature option, similar to the Nestor - to allow a such a hauler into Shattered Wormholes.
Either this or a deployable non-scoopable Mobile Compression unit?
I was sadden to see that the Endurance/Prospect did not make Fozzie's usage list.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:basically i'm just sad that a more exciting option to mining is just not a good investment back on time spent. My corp still does it to break up the monotony
Pretty much my reason for ninja WH mining. But I personally find it's a lot of time to set up. When I can just as easily undock, warp to any belt. The trade the low end ore I mine for a high end, through the market. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3153
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Posted - 2016.09.20 04:33:15 -
[41] - Quote
Penance Toralen wrote:I'd also consider a low signature option, similar to the Nestor - to allow a such a hauler into Shattered Wormholes.
can you explain the reliance of sig in a shattered hole?
BLOPS Hauler
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Iain Cariaba
3209
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Posted - 2016.09.20 05:01:52 -
[42] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Penance Toralen wrote:I'd also consider a low mass option, similar to the Nestor - to allow a such a hauler into Shattered Wormholes.
can you explain the relevance of sig in a shattered hole? Fixed both of those for you.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
10
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Posted - 2016.09.20 05:38:51 -
[43] - Quote
Thanks Iain, mass of course.
I was crossing wires with the prospect's lower sig bonus. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3153
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Posted - 2016.09.20 05:55:29 -
[44] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Penance Toralen wrote:I'd also consider a low mass option, similar to the Nestor - to allow a such a hauler into Shattered Wormholes.
can you explain the relevance of sig in a shattered hole? Fixed both of those for you. well no i was thinking there was some mechanic that had ships relying on low sig but thx
BLOPS Hauler
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
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Posted - 2016.09.20 09:52:23 -
[45] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the standard bay should be much smaller than a BR. It shouldn't even be able to try and compete with it when it comes to standard hauling I was thinking the same size as a miasmos/other T1 Specialised bay haulers. |
Gerald Mardiska
Extraordinarii The Volition Cult
34
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Posted - 2016.09.20 22:17:09 -
[46] - Quote
i support BLOPs Hauler. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3321
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Posted - 2016.11.28 22:05:44 -
[47] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the standard bay should be much smaller than a BR. It shouldn't even be able to try and compete with it when it comes to standard hauling I was thinking the same size as a miasmos/other T1 Specialised bay haulers.
sounds about right
BLOPS Hauler
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
273
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Posted - 2016.11.29 03:46:37 -
[48] - Quote
i dont see much problems with this,
30k or 60k though makes it just that much easier to haul massive quanties of compressed ore from null to high, or the lowsec in between.
60k might be too much, cheaper, much safer transport over JF concerning compressed ores or ice.....just a thought |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3321
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Posted - 2016.11.29 06:36:30 -
[49] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:i dont see much problems with this,
30k or 60k though makes it just that much easier to haul massive quanties of compressed ore from null to high, or the lowsec in between.
60k might be too much, cheaper, much safer transport over JF concerning compressed ores or ice.....just a thought
not really with citadels there is 0 risk to moving JFs now and they have a much higher range not to mention the rorq still exists
BLOPS Hauler
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
239
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Posted - 2016.11.29 22:52:57 -
[50] - Quote
Just let the porpoise use a blops cyno and make it cloaky. Give it a special "Expedition fleet bridge" module that works like a blops cyno but only for mining ships (kinda like how the PANIC only works for mining ships)
It already:
Fits shattered holes
Has an appropriate sized ore bay and a small fleet bay for refits to support frig mining fleets.
Fits links and other mining command stuff
Has enough high slots that giving it a covops cloak would be interesting, but not overpowered due to fitting tradeoffs for logi/boosts
Is missing a role outside of "cheaper than an orca" for most parts of space.
Thus your ninja mining ops would not rely on haulers but rather rely on the porp regularly bridging itself or its fleet members to a nearby system to drop off in safe cans or friendly stations. And a couple of them, at a very low price point, could create an undergroup highway of bridges to support such an op.
That's way more in line with how a ninja ops should work than having a ninja freighter IMO. |
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Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
160
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Posted - 2016.11.30 03:03:11 -
[51] - Quote
Vincent Pelletier wrote:30k Covops hauler would be very overpowered because it has many uses other than hauling ore for a blops mining OP.
Ore hold. 'Nuff said. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3324
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Posted - 2016.11.30 04:36:37 -
[52] - Quote
PopeUrban wrote:Just let the porpoise use a blops cyno and make it cloaky. Give it a special "Expedition fleet bridge" module that works like a blops bridge but only for expedition frigs and other porps (kinda like how the PANIC only works for mining ships) and requires DRASTICALLY reduced fuel costs compared to normal bridges. Talking like 1/5 the cost.
It already:
Fits shattered holes
Has an appropriate sized ore bay and a small fleet bay for refits to support frig mining fleets. (62k ore at full skills)
Fits links and other mining command stuff
Has enough high slots that giving it a covops cloak would be interesting, but not overpowered due to fitting tradeoffs for logi/boosts
Is missing a role outside of "cheaper than an orca" for most parts of space.
Thus your ninja mining ops would not rely on haulers but rather rely on the porp regularly bridging itself or its fleet members to a nearby system to drop off in safe cans or friendly stations. And a couple of them, at a very low price point, could create an underground highway of super cheap bridges to support such an op, or link up with a proper blops combat fleet in the area and double up on the blops cynos for integrated fleet ops (where you have one element combat roaming and one ninja mining)
That's way more in line with how a ninja ops should work than having a ninja freighter IMO In stead your ninja op would be a "dark highway" that efficiently moved the ore or gas directly back to safe space at regular intervals at low fuel costs, and thus requires more active play.
porpoise has waaay to much dps/tank for it to be balanced with this not to mention they don't need bonused boosts. all covert ships like this are specialized into one role and are generally made out of glass the same should be true for a fleet like this
BLOPS Hauler
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
241
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Posted - 2016.11.30 10:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Covops Porpoise then. Strip the tank down, rip off a high slot, remove the logi bonus and one boost, and take away the drone damage, and cut down the drone mining bonus a little so it doesn't show up the frigs.
At that point it is to mining boosts what blops battleships are to a fleet fight. Glassy and generally shittier version of the non covops ships with better mobility and bridging.
Give it a big ass antennae thing on the ship model for the bridge effect. Call it the Narwhal. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3325
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Posted - 2016.11.30 12:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
it doesn't need to do anything other than haul. There are already ships that can mine, ships that can bridge, and ships that can boost. I think it would be over all better if we just gave it an ore hold and saw how players use them and see if this sort of mining draws in more players after becoming more viable with it. THEN we can look at adding more functionality to these fleets
BLOPS Hauler
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
241
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Posted - 2016.11.30 23:23:57 -
[55] - Quote
The problem with a blops mining fleet and hauling is very much that a blops fleet, even a combat one, doesn't work like a normal fleet. Blops fleets are all about targets of opportunity and expanded mobility. The ability to move more efficiently to identify targets and take them down before an armed response can form.
The primary difference is that in this case the targets are very high value rocks/ice/gas relative to what the same group of players could safely mine in a more traditional fleet.
If you're talking about an addition to the game to buff blops mining (and thus make t2 expedition frigs more attractive miners) I think its actually a huge mistake to just add a hauler and call it a day. That doesn't do a whole lot to encourage blops mining. It just encourages blops hauling.
My entire point here is that if you're going to try and make blops mining fleets a thing, the fundamental gameplay OF those fleets deserves a paradigm shift. Blops mining shouldn't just amount to "its mining ops, but with cloaks and warp stabs" and attempting to simply add a hauler and call it a day is exactly the kind of thing that the game really doesn't need.
On the other hand, if you're designing a dedicated blops mining fleet ship it should be focused on blops doctrine principles of mobility and rapid target exploitation while suffering the drawbacks of being less prepared to deal with an adverse response on grid.
With the most recent round of changes, even barges boast significant response power in terms of tank and drone DPS, but also suffer from very long strip miner cycles which can make them inefficient at 'ninja mining'
When considering a blops fleet ship, also consider why it would be a BAD idea for a standard mining fleet, because it absolutely should be a bad idea for a standard mining fleet in the same manner as a blops battleship is a bad idea in a normal battleship gang.
The entire concept of a dedicated plops ore hauler is counter to the concept of blops mining. Expedition frigs are designed to be agile miners with extreme mobility and escape capability. They aren't designed to sit in one place and mine enough ore to necessitate a hauler in the first place, but rather to fill their holds and leave before it gets too hot.
You're focusing on giving them the ability to stay in one place better by giving them a big ore hold to carry their stuff so they can stay on grid and keep mining. What you should be focusing on is making them more efficient at their designed role of NOT staying on one place and mining the same thing for extended periods, but rather constantly being on the move to exploit only the most high value stuff, much of which is going to be found in hostile space on virtue of the spawn mechanics of those shiniest of shiny rocks.
Adding a hauler so they can sit in one place longer doesn't create any kind of new mining paradigm. It just takes exciting ships designed for more exciting and dangerous ops and asks them to operate in the same manner as larger, more profitable, tankier, and ultimately more boring ships. it asks them to sit for longer in one place in ships specifically designed to be on the move, ready to abandon their position and simply move to another one at a moment's notice, narrowly avoiding ganks, and coming out with a smaller hold of ore, but one that is far more valuable.
That means a focus on operational speed and projection over ore capacity, hence I maintain that a dedicated boosting ship with cheap bridging and a minimally sized ore hold is a much better way to buff blops mining than just adding another cloaky hauler to the game.
Asking a dedicated ninja mining organization like the sort you're hoping would form to also have people train in to blops battleships just to bridge works directly in the opposite direction of what you're trying to do, and lets be frank, if you're not utilizing blops bridges, is there really any point at all in running a blops fleet? Just put t1 cloaks on literally any other ship. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3334
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Posted - 2016.12.01 03:24:13 -
[56] - Quote
except as i have explained we already do these fleets every tool you need is there except a ship that can bridge with a hold big enough to keep up with the prospect.
you have miners you have a bridge and you have boosts you do not need any of these built into the ship
if you give this ship it's own Jump drive it becomes far far more powerful even if you did also let it mine and boost
BLOPS Hauler
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
242
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Posted - 2016.12.01 05:13:07 -
[57] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:except as i have explained we already do these fleets every tool you need is there except a ship that can bridge with a hold big enough to keep up with the prospect.
you have miners you have a bridge and you have boosts you do not need any of these built into the ship
if you give this ship it's own Jump drive it becomes far far more powerful even if you did also let it mine and boost
and in case you have not read the thread with the numbers we found for the hull there is no sitting around it fills just slow enough to wait out the two way fatigue timer.
and you can already move these fleets around fast using a BLOPs so that's not an issue.
EDIT:
basically you don't need to add a ship to fill a niche that is already filled and when you do let ships fill several roles better than any other ship you get a broken ship
Saying a titan or blops BS is an appropriate tool is like saying a JF is an appropriate tool.
You're basically saying "We don't need an industrial covops bridge because we have a battleship that already does the job" while simultaneously saying "We need a new covops hauler because the existing covops hauler is bad for this specific purpose."
Do you see how those two statements contradict themselves?
If a blops BS is sufficient for bridging despite having no other utility to your mining op, why is a blockade runner not sufficient despite having very limited utility to your mining op?
Either you stick to the idea that if it exists and works it is fine, or you don't. What you want DOES in fact already exist, it just isn't designed for the things you want to do with it. This is also true of the blops BS.
You're basically saying it is okay that a member of your industrial fleet is required to shove tons of trains in to a ship with zero industrial utility simply because it is the only avaliable bridging tool. Do you not see how that's actually a bigger problem for a blops mining fleet than not having a bigger cloaky hauler? |
Morbius Karlock
Alpha State Cl0nes
10
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Posted - 2016.12.03 11:16:14 -
[58] - Quote
you can bridge transport ships with blops cyno or is this simply not good enough for you? use a rorq then. |
Satchel Darkmatter
Massive Dynamic inc. Care Factor
20
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Posted - 2016.12.03 19:53:21 -
[59] - Quote
the solution here is a temporary jump bridge, like a mini bridge that only lasts a few hours, can only be placed in High Sec going to low/null and that only allows miners and ore hold haulers to pass through it.
That would allow miners to setup up an op for the day, place the bridge and then hop into low or null for all their mining needs without the need for a permanently anchored thing, which also allows them to move often, this would get way more miners into low and null sec I think for a reasonable cost, but would only work or be viable if it locked access down to only miners and haulers with ore holds. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3343
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Posted - 2016.12.04 10:09:59 -
[60] - Quote
Morbius Karlock wrote:you can bridge transport ships with blops cyno or is this simply not good enough for you? use a rorq then.
explanation as to why this doesn't work was given
Satchel Darkmatter wrote:the solution here is a temporary jump bridge, like a mini bridge that only lasts a few hours, can only be placed in High Sec going to low/null and that only allows miners and ore hold haulers to pass through it.
That would allow miners to setup up an op for the day, place the bridge and then hop into low or null for all their mining needs without the need for a permanently anchored thing, which also allows them to move often, this would get way more miners into low and null sec I think for a reasonable cost, but would only work or be viable if it locked access down to only miners and haulers with ore holds.
... this would be far far more powerful than what i'm asking for.
we just need one small tool to make these fleets viable nothing fancy
basically the current hauler can not keep up with mining even w/o fatigue and to get enough haulers to keep up you would make more isk with the same number of pilots in HS mining with proper barges/exhumers afk. the fuel cost and time lost moving the prospects back and forth also removes and isk/hr gain. a hauler like this would give a reason to do these far more interactive forms of mining while not breaking anything else.
BLOPS Hauler
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