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Fzhal
Tessaract Industries
42
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Posted - 2016.09.12 01:21:44 -
[1] - Quote
Let's face it, the game mechanics for weapon accuracy and damage are not obvious for new players, and even many that are not so old. And even if you understand those mechanics, it is still difficult to know whether your weapons are doing maximum damage while in the heat of battle because there are too many factors for which to account.
Projectile Weapons: Range - Optimal, Falloff and out of range Signature Resolution versus Signature Radius of target Tracking Speed (radians per second) versus Transversal Speed of target
Missile Weapons: Flight Range versus Range of target Explosion Radius versus Signature Radius of target Explosion Velocity versus Velocity of target of target
(That is a lot of information for a person to memorize, recall, and estimate while doing everything else.)
In the end, it always comes down to comparing three sets of data. Is the target too far, too fast, or too small? That's basically all that the player needs to worry about. (Yes, I know can be a bit more complex than that, but it is close enough.)
My idea is that there should be an optional visual aid added around weapon module icons in the HUD. Here is a hasty example:
Weapon Effectiveness Indicators
If something like that (but less ugly) were used, it would drastically reduce the amount of confusion that new players experience while in combat. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3516
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Posted - 2016.09.12 02:18:35 -
[2] - Quote
You realise signature resolution has been taken out of the equation right? Or rather, it's been standardised across all weapons. So on you're graphic it doesn't matter if im using large artillery or small blasters, the bar will be the same size against the same ships. And since signature is irrelevant for turrets unless the target is moving why not combine the two bars into an 'evasion score'. Then put it on the overview.
Missiles are in range or not in range, and if this is done it might not even take into account moving targets, i.e missiles have less range against targets moving away from the launcher and more range against targets moving towards them. The distance bar would be irrelevant when it comes to missiles. Then speed and sig can be combined into one like above.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Fzhal
Tessaract Industries
42
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Posted - 2016.09.12 03:24:27 -
[3] - Quote
An evasion score doesn't help tell the player WHY a weapon is missing.The top-middle indicator could be the combined effectiveness score (for missiles too), while leaving the other scores visible to the player. That way not only can the player see why their guns will be less effective, but they can watch how those chances change as the maneuver their ship differently.
Like I said, I know that things are a little more complicated, but in most cases it will be close. Regardless, missile range estimation could easily account for the target's trajectory AND speed very easily. If the target maintains the same speed and direction, the target will be how close to the maximum distance the missile can travel?
By using color as an indicator, the new pilot can easily know what needs to be done to improve their weapon's effectiveness. If the Range indicator yellow or red? Get closer. Tracking/Explosion_Velocity indicator yellow or red? Web/Scramble to slow them down. Explosion Radius indicator yellow or red? Change to missiles with better explosion radius or use a Target Painter and SEE how much difference it makes.
In addition, this allows the players to quickly understand how much certain actions affect their ability to do damage to the target.
Honestly, I'm amazed that CCP has not implemented something like this already. This really would be a big win for the New Player Experience, and even existing players could get some benefit from it, as it reduces some of the mystery in PvP. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
827
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Posted - 2016.09.12 03:30:49 -
[4] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You realise signature resolution has been taken out of the equation right? Or rather, it's been standardised across all weapons. So on you're graphic it doesn't matter if im using large artillery or small blasters, the bar will be the same size against the same ships. And since signature is irrelevant for turrets unless the target is moving why not combine the two bars into an 'evasion score'. Then put it on the overview.
Missiles are in range or not in range, and if this is done it might not even take into account moving targets, i.e missiles have less range against targets moving away from the launcher and more range against targets moving towards them. The distance bar would be irrelevant when it comes to missiles. Then speed and sig can be combined into one like above.
That and as I see it...except for frigates most times the missile display would not be green anyway. Get to HML/HAM and cruise/torp and rarely are you getting ideal shooting conditions (this display being green I'd gather).
Hate to use pve for a reasoning (will expect some flames, level of care low lol).....but its why some tend to be more forgiving to stacking penalty. they know their rigors and missile mods are stacking up penalties. But its okay, better to stack and hit than not stack and hit less effectively a valid build tradeoff. Paint an alternative ofc, 54k max optimal though, pick your poison basically if going LR spec.
that and in terms of pvp I'd see this only be valid on the first shot or 2 out. Assuming target doesn't go deer in the headlights.....they move and such after. Pulse MWD, get the soon burst AOE boosts bursting (or the timer runs out), e-war in play, etc. This display will be ever changing basically beyond that. And its not like most go oh not green...turn off guns. In mere seconds things can change...better to spray and pray you catch those small breaks when you can.
Also see a scaling problem. As in tidi saying ohh....1000 people need updates, right now. Let me just drop the 300 other things I am doing to show the minmatar pilots they are out of range. |
Fzhal
Tessaract Industries
42
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Posted - 2016.09.12 03:45:02 -
[5] - Quote
Again, you're talking about high level PvP. Regardless of how fast things change, people will be able to see them change in real time, which enhances experience and understanding. The math involved is not complex, as even a Commadore 64 could keep up. And, combat is rarely as hectic as you indicate.
As far as server impact, there would be no server impact. The Eve client already has all of that information by default. Just look in the overview. The only one that isn't obvious is signature radius, but it's there embedded in the Size column. The other thing that people might bring up is trajectory, but that can now be displayed with an arrow in the tactical overlay. The current eve client already has all the needed information, so it should not affect server performance. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3082
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Posted - 2016.09.12 03:51:12 -
[6] - Quote
is the "hits" "glances" "pens" ect not covering this already? what would be much more helpful to players is a mouse over tool tip for things like expl vel/rad or the WAS so players know what they mean and how they can expect them to affect a fight.
some colors over the mods will either be so bulky they irritate players that don't need them or so small new players wont notice them
BLOPS Hauler
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Fzhal
Tessaract Industries
42
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Posted - 2016.09.12 04:00:57 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:is the "hits" "glances" "pens" ect not covering this already? what would be much more helpful to players is a mouse over tool tip for things like expl vel/rad or the WAS so players know what they mean and how they can expect them to affect a fight.
some colors over the mods will either be so bulky they irritate players that don't need them or so small new players wont notice them LOL! How fast does that text scroll without major customization? And the fact that it is a glancing hit does not tell the player WHY it was a glancing hit.
I'm pretty sure I said they should be optional somewhere in there... And what makes you think CCP can't make them noticeable? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3082
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Posted - 2016.09.12 05:21:20 -
[8] - Quote
you know you can open the log to see right?
ccp hates options
missiles you know if the target is faster or smaller you don't need a further indicator.
turrets the only real variables are range and tracking you know if the ship is outside your optimal and you used to be able to tell tracking easy as well (but ccp judged that to be a confusing number ffs)
it is not hard to figure out why you are not hitting just by looking at your own attributes.
I said they will either be bulky or hard for new players to notice. best examples of things hard to notice for new players is
just about everything that has to do with over heating.
and t3 d mode buttons
however make any of these more noticeable for new players and they begin to get bulky
BLOPS Hauler
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3518
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Posted - 2016.09.12 10:17:33 -
[9] - Quote
sometimes it wont give a good idea of hit chances, sometimes it will be out right misleading.
Situation one: I am using large weapons to hit a stationary pod. Sig bar = almost zero Velocity bar = max
Chance to hit = almost 100%
Situation two: I am using large guns to hit a battleship that is very close and moving fast. Sig bar = max Velocity bar = almost zero
Chance to hit = almost zero (what?)
To a noob it looks like the chance to hit should be the same because one bar is full and the other is almost empty. With an evasion score you simply compare two numbers, if your tracking is higher you make good hits, if your tracking is lower you dont make as good hits.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3087
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Posted - 2016.09.12 10:21:48 -
[10] - Quote
to add onto what Xero said it gets ever worse when you add missiles in that reverse that issue
sig = max
vel bar = poor
apply decent damage
sig = poor
vel = great
apply almost no damage
so even if they figure out how the turret bars are used once they swap to missiles the UI will look like its giving the opposite info
BLOPS Hauler
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Fzhal
Tessaract Industries
42
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Posted - 2016.09.12 15:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
(Is that really the best you've got?) Well, then one of two things: Have an indicator that takes all into account, or give people two seconds to figure out that your chance is only as good as the worst value.
And each indicator doesn't show you simply the sig values and such, it shows you the percent of 100% when the values are compared. Was that not obvious? |
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