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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.16 20:51:19 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks,
Just as there exists a HIC, I think it could be fun if there was a battleship hull with a cyno jammer on it. Short range, probably something like 500km. Since it's short range, having it block covert cynos would be even more to the point. Or maybe with a script. Block one but not both, presence of one field blocks the other or something.
It would not break: BLOPs - you will see the ship on grid before you light your cyno. If you light it anyways you're deserving to get popped when nobody jumps through to help you. Hot Drops - Again you'll see it on grid. You can still cyno people in from off-grid and warp in. Cyno Generator array - yea okay it does break these, but that is the point. Rapid response would mean including a cyno ship to fly near grid and cyno in the capital/supercap fleet.
Why?
Less blappage (when the pilots who live in the space being roamed drop carriers on your gang), more fighting. More fighting means more fun. You can't just rock paper HOT DROP LOL. Or when you're on a strategic op, you can bring one of those to prevent a rapid response, forcing subcap response while the cap /supers mobilize and wait for someone to cyno them in off grid.
It would be more to the advantage of roamers who are outside of their home system, and small corps who do not have titans / blops. Both regular and covert cynos are still possible, you just can't do it with one of these battleships in the near vicinity.
The natural weakness: it's a battleship... slower than your mom, about as agile, and vulnerable to things like bombers. It could have a high resist profile, similar to HICs.
Thoughts? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3123
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 01:35:32 -
[2] - Quote
-1 use the jammer already in game. -1 jamers should never block cov cynos as cov cynos are the counter to jammers
-1 "short range" of 500km wtf
BLOPS Hauler
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
831
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 02:09:34 -
[3] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
-1 "short range" of 500km wtf
The goal would seem to not even having on grid warping. They are just not subtle about it lol.
rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe.
And op how does this not break BLOPS. Yes read we will see the effect in use on grid. Thats the point. Targets are getting ample time to think of what to do next as we can't jump right on them. From a combat perspective for those who use blops for more than bridges....this is breaking them.
Ninjya gangs are hit and run. Not setup over 500km's out, setup warp to's then hit and run. Element of surprise is gone at this point. And for covert ninjya ops, this is half the reason they work. The surprise element.
Blops don't tank well, blops have no real monster DPS (except redeemer, its passable but not monster)...in the time it takes to setup attack from 500 out...we are already in a bad spot potentially. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3124
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 02:11:49 -
[4] - Quote
side note
zan can i see your redeemer fit mine always feels meh dps wise. i get more out of widow and panther
BLOPS Hauler
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 04:06:12 -
[5] - Quote
The cyno jammer in game already takes time to anchor. I haven't even got anchoring skills on my pilot so I have no clue how long it takes, but dropping a tower every time you come across someone seems cumbersome. Then scooping it back up for the next jump.
By that logic you could remove a HIC's ability to bubble on the grounds that there are already bubbles that can be anchored. A lot of people would probably be unhappy with that.
The "short" range of 500km is indeed to stop people from dropping right on top of a prepared group. The whole point is to not end the sentence with "and then carriers came, turned on their NSAs and wiped us out". 500km seemed a good distance to me because it's still a short warp, it's far enough away that fighters would still take quite some time to arrive, and it's technically on-grid.
As for breaking blops, I guess it depends on how you define blops. To me, blops is a hunter lighting a cyno on someone and engaging in a very lopsided gank. No issues with that, it's fun.
If you're blopsing into a fleet battle, there are many who would argue that you are not using blops the way it was intended (sneak attacks).
Under the definition of blopsing as a sneak attack against unsuspecting targets, they probably wouldn't be multiboxing with a cyno-based interdictor alt. Even if they were, you'd still see it and wouldn't initiate the attack. Normal blops is warp to the target, light the cyno, jump and blap, and scatter / jump out.
If you're blopsing a well-prepared fleet you deserve to whelp.
I'm not talking about a module for any BS, I'm talking about a specific hull like the HICs (as a normal cruiser cannot generate bubbles). |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 04:18:01 -
[6] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe.
Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us".
At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs. |
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department
151
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 04:58:23 -
[7] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe.
Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us". At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs. Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets.
'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing.
And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'
Yeah, we're like that.
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3126
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 05:05:29 -
[8] - Quote
this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right?
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3126
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 05:07:01 -
[9] - Quote
Rawmeat Mary wrote:Old Pervert wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe.
Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us". At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs. Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets.
i think i would just go for a rigged rokh cheaper and can still keep up with cruisers
BLOPS Hauler
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 06:02:40 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right?
Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time?
Rawmeat Mary wrote:Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets.
As mentioned. A special HULL. Like a HIC. You can't make a bubble with a Caracal can you? |
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Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department
151
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 06:22:18 -
[11] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time? Rawmeat Mary wrote:Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets. As mentioned. A special HULL. Like a HIC. You can't make a bubble with a Caracal can you? No, but you can fit Warp Speed rigs on any ship.
That being said, I am not against the idea, certainly open for discussion.
'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing.
And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'
Yeah, we're like that.
|
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 07:28:59 -
[12] - Quote
Oh you mean for warp-in? Entirely misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant putting the cyno jamming module/generator on a travel fit Mach so you could keep up with cruisers. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3128
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 08:21:05 -
[13] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time?
60s 100km range
This idea is not the same as a hicari. A bubble can not give one side grid superiority this ship can. Suddenly fights become who can pop all of the enemies anti cyno ships first. Once you do you drop your jamer just long enough to light a cyno and then put it back up b4 the enemy can react. Now you can flood the field with supers as they disengage
BLOPS Hauler
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1902
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 08:28:53 -
[14] - Quote
what would stop someone from putting one of these in every place where they dont want hotdropper?
Art of Explosions
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 09:08:18 -
[15] - Quote
I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs?
I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3128
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 10:31:40 -
[16] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs?
I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine.
Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important
BLOPS Hauler
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 11:15:45 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs?
I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important Maybe have the opposite of the drawback on speed then, set speed to double max and a penalty to agility during use? forcing it to zig-zag/patrol? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3129
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 11:21:25 -
[18] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs?
I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important Maybe have the opposite of the drawback on speed then, set speed to double max and a penalty to agility during use? forcing it to zig-zag/patrol?
The enemy fleet would only need to get out of range for 1 tick. Besides things don't go well when you try to force a square peg into a round hole
Another issue with making it a T2BB is cost. Each hull would be near 1b meaning large groups would be able to use it all g they like but small groups would have issue. That's double bad when you realise the small groups would have more need of it
BLOPS Hauler
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Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
423
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 18:14:23 -
[19] - Quote
What i'm reading here seems to describe a T2 Battleship continuing up the interdictor tree, which i am certainly open to discussion of, i do love My HIC and my Sabre. What we really need here OP is more details, which hulls would this use? is this a hull bonus or an active module? (Perhaps the un-used 3rd Battleships in the tree such as the Rokh and Hyperion could be used now that i think of it)
In addition what are we looking like for fitting this thing? what are the benefits vs drawbacks? What can someone do with it aside from its role, i forsee that if this were overdone people in 0.0 could use these to run sites since it would be much safer than using a marauder, carrier, T3, etc since you now can't be dropped or that people would put an alt in one to protect ratting carriers from drops at extra low risk to themselves.
Also -1 for blocking CovCyno As thats the counter play to cyno jamming,
In addition can this only be used in Null Sec? Can it be used in Low Sec? Etc.
Details, Details, Details
Will continue reading other opinions post-work.
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
775
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 18:51:23 -
[20] - Quote
I like the general idea, but I doubt it'd be tech I.
Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing. This thread might go places- I'll stay tuned! |
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Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department
151
|
Posted - 2016.09.17 20:39:40 -
[21] - Quote
No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).
Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.
'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing.
And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'
Yeah, we're like that.
|
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
424
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 02:52:33 -
[22] - Quote
Rawmeat Mary wrote:No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).
Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.
Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default.
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
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Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
424
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 02:55:08 -
[23] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:I like the general idea, but I doubt it'd be tech I.
Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing. This thread might go places- I'll stay tuned!
Well right now it is even really Marauders are PVE T2 Battleships that can do PVP And Black Ops do PVP and could possibly do some pve activities if fit right
I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3133
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 03:43:23 -
[24] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote: I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls
How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level?
"Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3133
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 03:45:11 -
[25] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Rawmeat Mary wrote:No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).
Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default.
It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants.
BLOPS Hauler
|
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department
151
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 12:16:04 -
[26] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:Rawmeat Mary wrote:No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).
Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default. It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants. Likely, but then balance comes after an interesting idea becomes a development concept.
Range would certainly be part of that balance.
'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing.
And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'
Yeah, we're like that.
|
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
425
|
Posted - 2016.09.18 16:37:30 -
[27] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote: I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls
How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level? "Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools
As for the continuity of a tree i see it like this:
Logistics Goes all the way from Frigate class to the FAX with a gap where battleships are in of hull size linear progression Damage Ships move all the way up to the dreadnought Mining moves all the way to the rorqual Drone ships go as far as supercarriers Im hesitant to say boosts go all the way up to titan class since titans do a lot of things at once Ewar on the other hand stops at the battleship level with the scorpion being the only EWAR T1 BS hull i know of ( Discussion for another thread)
Now interdictors have just the 2 a destroyer hull that specializes in hit and run area tackle, and a cruiser hull that focuses on super-heavy tackle and area tackle. Adding this concept to the 3rd you get a balance of what interdictors do which is "Breach enemy warp tunnels" according to one of the skillbooks.
This idea while in need of refinement i think fits with the general hull concept: Interdictor - Pulls enemies out of warp, hit and run area denial through bubbles Heavy Dictor - Super heavy tackle that fills all of the above roles and has added effects on capital class ships BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement
Sure its a jump from A to C but i think with the right touch of balance this could at least become something worthy of a bit more discussion, at least thats how i see it. To each their own opinion
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 02:05:04 -
[28] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote: BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement
With the added distinction that this would not tackle. In my head at least, this would not prevent a capital from jumping out, it would merely "scramble" or prevent a cyno from being lit.
As others have said, balance is critical. The range would be one item to balance, and as I've never flown a (super)cap before, I honestly couldn't say either way what a good balance would be.
Regarding the cost, small gangs may or may not be able to afford it, but if it does what it is intended to do, it might be worth dropping ~500m on a battleship if it protects 1b in fleet assets. The way I see it, if it's a T2 BS, you'll probably have the isk to afford it.
Since there have been a few repeated questions on the matter, I'll repeat again that I do believe this would need to be a completely new hull, just as is the case with the HIC. No other cruisers can mount the bubble generator.
Regarding the point that it would just be a matter of burning down their cyno jammer first, my question is this: If you burn down our jammer ship and we burn down your dps, will we burn down your dps faster than you burn down our cyno jammers? Or logistics? It's not a clear cut case of "primary the cyno jammer and win". Sure if it's a 20+ pilot fleet you can start talking about alphas, but I personally haven't come across many of those while roaming unless we end up in someone's home space and they throw the kitchen sink at us. If they have logistics backing their cyno jammer, and it's a subcap fleet against a subcap fleet, you may find better value targets.
More importantly, I think that this will encourage fleets to more than just make a giant wrecking ball of one type of ship. Doctrines have their obvious benefits, but honestly they're boring as ****. I love flying kitchen sink roams personally.
I'll go RP-mode for a second, if you stop playing spreadsheet simulator and to back to spaceship battles, it's always more fun seeing movies when they've got an assortment of battlegroups, each group having a variety of ships to fill a certain need. A blob of the same ships would all have the same weaknesses and strengths. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3138
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 02:23:47 -
[29] - Quote
A t2 BB based of the tire 3 hull would be about 1b of based on the other hulls it would be 800-950 just like the current ones.
It would be a matter of just killing the James as that will remove dps be asure good as killing a cap as far as to isk war and once you can light your Cyno it doesn't matter if up to that point you have lost more dps you have now just won
BLOPS Hauler
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2686
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 02:27:01 -
[30] - Quote
This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 03:06:28 -
[31] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned.
It is about as much fun as flying a HIC or logistics. You serve a role. Your role may not land you on the killboards (which in this case I imagine such a cynodictor would still have guns to shoot with) but it would indeed be a role served for the win.
Consider the following: 1) Your hunter finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno 2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick, something/anything to kill the carrier) 3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and counter-drops you 4) You whelp on bait
Both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).
Versus: 1) Your tackle finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno 2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick) along with one of these cyno jammers 3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and lights a cyno 4) You say Stop! Jammertime! Go with the flow, it is said,If you can't groove to this then you probably are dead 4.5) Enemy carrier dies
Net result, both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).
Hot-drop-o-clock is indeed fun. Getting baited is "one of the risks". What does the bait ship risk? Very little considering they're tanked up to the 9s and have a significant fleet ready to roflstomp whatever lands on it. That's not to say you can't counter-counter-drop, and so on and so forth, but really how often does that happen?
Much like logi-love, you get to be known amongst your corp/alliance/fleet as the one that saved the whole fleet. Epeens will swell and everyone will have a grand time. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 03:18:08 -
[32] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:It would be a matter of just killing the James as that will remove dps be asure good as killing a cap as far as to isk war and once you can light your Cyno it doesn't matter if up to that point you have lost more dps you have now just won
If you lose too much DPS before you break their logistics, are you going to kill their cynodictor? (I'm calling it a cynodictor because that seems a relevant name).
If you can blap it sure. That ends the fight. But if you can't blap it, maybe you can blap their logi first. Or their DPS, so they don't blap yours.
Or maybe you ignore it because your capitals are just getting jumped in from outside of the jam radius and will warp in. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3138
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 03:29:29 -
[33] - Quote
Either it's ehp will be low enough that several will be blapable in a large fight or it will be so high that small groups will not stand a chance.
I need to ask have you ever been in a large fleet fight (400+)
As for warping in that will not be an option in null sec where it takes no time at all to get bubbles using HICs and DICS into place and capitals are not fast enough to burn through these
BLOPS Hauler
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2686
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:56:56 -
[34] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned. It is about as much fun as flying a HIC or logistics. You serve a role. Your role may not land you on the killboards (which in this case I imagine such a cynodictor would still have guns to shoot with) but it would indeed be a role served for the win. Consider the following: 1) Your hunter finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno 2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick, something/anything to kill the carrier) 3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and counter-drops you 4) You whelp on bait Both sides had fun (if you call losing fun). Versus: 1) Your tackle finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno 2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick) along with one of these cyno jammers3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and lights a cyno 4) You say Stop! Jammertime! Go with the flow, it is said,If you can't groove to this then you probably are dead 4.5) Enemy carrier dies Net result, both sides had fun (if you call losing fun). Hot-drop-o-clock is indeed fun. Getting baited is "one of the risks". What does the bait ship risk? Very little considering they're tanked up to the 9s and have a significant fleet ready to roflstomp whatever lands on it. That's not to say you can't counter-counter-drop, and so on and so forth, but really how often does that happen? Much like logi-love, you get to be known amongst your corp/alliance/fleet as the one that saved the whole fleet. Epeens will swell and everyone will have a grand time.
The HIC is a very fun ship to fly - especially the Onyx in small gang fights. It can completely shut down a kiting gang - if they make the mistake of coming with 37km of you. The drawback is that you cannot be remote repaired with your point active or your bubble up. And it's fun in large fleets too. In a large fleet fight, where you have multiple Carriers or Supercapitals tackled, you have to carefully coordinate your point/bubble to avoid dying, without letting the hostiles escape. You have to fly a HIC - maintaining awareness of your relative position to your fleet and the enemy and awareness of your point cycle, EHP, and etc. relative to your fellow HIC pilots.
The ship you describe does not seem to have any skill associated with using it, nor does it appear to have any drawbacks. The ship you describe is a 500 km sphere of boring. You are proposing a ship that basically you bridge in and put the blocker up and then focus on your main. Not to mention that it's a ship that literally has no purpose other than to keep other players from coming to a fight, which is the opposite of exciting.
Nearly every new ship and every new change that CCP has made has the goal of making Eve combat more unpredictable and more interactive. Your proposal is the opposite of that.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
429
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Posted - 2016.09.19 04:52:43 -
[35] - Quote
1. Not my proposal 2. I suggested several times balancing the range 3. I suggested the ship use an active module multiple times 4. A good point regarding that last line of text and it being the opposite of the goal 5. Ship does need to do other things and requires balancing, Polish not included in OP Post 6. Some skill level should be required, what makes it do this however is the discussion needed
@Diomedes (combined post too long to quote)
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
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Posted - 2016.09.19 07:54:40 -
[36] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: The HIC is a very fun ship to fly - especially the Onyx in small gang fights. It can completely shut down a kiting gang - if they make the mistake of coming with 37km of you. The drawback is that you cannot be remote repaired with your point active or your bubble up. And it's fun in large fleets too. In a large fleet fight, where you have multiple Carriers or Supercapitals tackled, you have to carefully coordinate your point/bubble to avoid dying, without letting the hostiles escape. You have to fly a HIC - maintaining awareness of your relative position to your fleet and the enemy and awareness of your point cycle, EHP, and etc. relative to your fellow HIC pilots.
The ship you describe does not seem to have any skill associated with using it, nor does it appear to have any drawbacks. The ship you describe is a 500 km sphere of boring. You are proposing a ship that basically you bridge in and put the blocker up and then focus on your main. Not to mention that it's a ship that literally has no purpose other than to keep other players from coming to a fight, which is the opposite of exciting.
Nearly every new ship and every new change that CCP has made has the goal of making Eve combat more unpredictable and more interactive. Your proposal is the opposite of that.
Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3138
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Posted - 2016.09.19 08:18:46 -
[37] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote: Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps.
the majority of things using the cyno can't mjd and will not be able to warp before bubbles are up. you would simply be forced to kill off the enemy cyno jammers b4 your own.
the problems with turning the mobile cyno jammer into a ship mod is that it gives up everything used to balance it. the two biggest ones being
lighting a cyno then imminently stopping your enemy
blocking entire grids
the mobile unit takes 60 seconds to online and can not be anchored with in 100km of another one ensuring gaps in the coverage
BLOPS Hauler
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
461
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Posted - 2016.09.19 08:53:50 -
[38] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Caldari 5 wrote: Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps.
the majority of things using the cyno can't mjd and will not be able to warp before bubbles are up. you would simply be forced to kill off the enemy cyno jammers b4 your own. I was talking in reference to Bridging subcaps, not jumping in Caps/Supers. There are lots of Subcaps that MJD or be MJD'd by a Command Destroyer.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the problems with turning the mobile cyno jammer into a ship mod is that it gives up everything used to balance it. the two biggest ones being
lighting a cyno then imminently stopping your enemy
blocking entire grids
the mobile unit takes 60 seconds to online and can not be anchored with in 100km of another one ensuring gaps in the coverage If you have enough of these on field to block an entire grid you deserve the control of the grid. As for the timing of things, you could make it have a warmup cycle like the Entosis modules.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2687
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Posted - 2016.09.19 13:52:20 -
[39] - Quote
The only way this idea could be made workable is if you made it a module, not a new ship. Some suggestions:
This module could only be fitted to Battlecruisers and Battleships that do not have jump drives (i.e. T1, Faction, Command Ships, Marauders, not Black Ops).
It takes a utility high slot.
Give it substantial fitting costs - the T1 version is like a cynosural field generator. The T2 version gets higher fitting costs and costs more.
Put a fitting restriction on it such that fitting one is not possible if you have a cynosural field generator fitted to your ship.
Like a cynosural field generator, it consumes Liquid Ozone or some other such fuel. I'd suggest 100-250 LO per cycle at max skills.
The T1 version gets 30km range and blocks regular cynosural fields only.
The T2 version gets 30km range and blocks regular and covert cynosural fields.
When activated, it acts like a warp disruption field generator in terms of penalties (you can still move, albeit slowly).
You can MJD or be MJDed with it active, unless you are warp scrambled.
You cannot warp, dock, take a bridge, jump gate, or tether with it active.
One minute cycle time, one minute weapons timer (like a bastion module).
Entering a POS force field automatically disables the module.
Activating the module untethers you.
You cannot be remote repaired while the module is active.
Now you have a module that has some situational uses, but is not totally boring and OP. It keeps someone from hotdropping right on top of you, but only if you are paying attention and activate it before they do.
Veteran forum posters might say that an idea with that many restrictions is a bad idea, but I believe it could be workable with the above.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.09.19 15:48:50 -
[40] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: This module could only be fitted to Battlecruisers and Battleships that do not have jump drives (i.e. T1, Faction, Command Ships, Marauders, not Black Ops).
I would go a step further with this and say that the module can only be fit to a special hull. Just like with HICs. This makes it exceedingly easy to identify which ship(s) is(are) running the module
FT Diomedes wrote: It takes a utility high slot.
Give it substantial fitting costs - the T1 version is like a cynosural field generator. The T2 version gets higher fitting costs and costs more.
Also agree with this. Given the power in controlling the field, you can't have this ship contributing in other meaningful ways.
FT Diomedes wrote: Put a fitting restriction on it such that fitting one is not possible if you have a cynosural field generator fitted to your ship.
Like a cynosural field generator, it consumes Liquid Ozone or some other such fuel. I'd suggest 100-250 LO per cycle at max skills.
Excellent ideas, having the mutual exclusion will prevent people from playing games (turn off, light, turn on)
FT Diomedes wrote: The T1 version gets 30km range and blocks regular cynosural fields only.
The T2 version gets 30km range and blocks regular and covert cynosural fields.
I would still argue for a bit more range, 30km still puts jumped in capitals well within optimal for non-brawling fits.
FT Diomedes wrote: When activated, it acts like a warp disruption field generator in terms of penalties (you can still move, albeit slowly).
You can MJD or be MJDed with it active, unless you are warp scrambled.
You cannot warp, dock, take a bridge, jump gate, or tether with it active.
One minute cycle time, one minute weapons timer (like a bastion module).
Entering a POS force field automatically disables the module.
Activating the module untethers you.
Agree with all of these as well. These are all excellent.
The only one I disagree with is remote reps. If you deny remote reps, then it becomes a simple DPS race as was mentioned to kill the cyno jammers first. If you allow remote reps, then all of a sudden it may not be the clear-cut path to kill their jammer first. If they're light on logistics, maybe you can pop their logistics first to burn theirs down faster, if they're light on dps maybe you can reduce their dps below critical values (such that they can no longer break your logistics). Once they've lost too much DPS, they've lost reinforcements because they can't jump in more.
As a potential compromise/solution to having unbreakable cyno jammers, perhaps a (strength to be discussed) penalty to remote reps? Oh... how about diminishing returns on reps? That would likely take a significant code change from CCP, but it would certainly mean that cyno jammers could stay up for a while, but without relief they would eventually eat it. |
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Mercenary Coalition
3104
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 16:23:25 -
[41] - Quote
I can get behind a cyno-jamming ship idea, but 500km is way to much imo |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.09.19 16:29:28 -
[42] - Quote
500 is a number, numbers can be tweaked (even twerked). |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
786
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 17:16:36 -
[43] - Quote
It'd have to be something like 30km (pointrange), because I strongly suspect every gatecamp will have one of these. I know we would.
Warpstabbed with a cloak and a battery of undersized whore guns.
It's not a bad idea but assume people will 'abuse' it (well .... abuse is a strong word, given that it's intended to counter hotdrops) and work from there. |
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department
151
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Posted - 2016.09.19 21:25:17 -
[44] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:It'd have to be something like 30km (pointrange), because I strongly suspect every gatecamp will have one of these. I know we would.
Warpstabbed with a cloak and a battery of undersized whore guns.
It's not a bad idea but assume people will 'abuse' it (well .... abuse is a strong word, given that it's intended to counter hotdrops) and work from there. I would suggest 25km to 35km, considering what CCP did with HIC infinite points: T1 (base range) to the different meta (better range/fitting/cap usuage) to T2 (best range/worse fitting/worse cap consumption) to Faction.
I'd also prefer a specific hull, with the module's range modified by skill ship skill.
'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing.
And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'
Yeah, we're like that.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1093
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Posted - 2016.09.20 06:23:17 -
[45] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:The cyno jammer in game already takes time to anchor. As it should. If it did not, then the entire game would be about dropping your fleet and immediately anchoring one, so you could not be counter dropped. This is also sort of a problem with your idea; if you titan drop one of these guys on top of someone, you also, could not be counter-dropped. Counter drops are the balance to drops.
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing.
You've never seen what a marauder can do then! Also, some blops set ups are actually really effective at clearing DEDs fast.
So long as you have local, free, instant, 100% reliable intel, the only counter is cynos. Take away local, and cynos can be discarded as the questionable mechanic they are. Plenty of ways to work around them as they are:
A)Don't take obvious bait
B)Fly kite/nano.
C)Jam out the bait ship, warp off.
D)Counter drop.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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