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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.18 23:22:50 -
[1] - Quote
This is an idea I pitched over on Reddit. The idea is to change high security space so that security level has a rest point at .5 and everything above that floats, recalculated every day at downtime.
Quote:High Sec System Security Level = .5 + ( .5 * (system jumps last 24 hours / average 24 hour system jumps for the top # systems in New Eden) )
# starting out at say 100
The result is a high sec space where the high traffic trade routes are very high security, while the vast majority of high sec drops to .5. Consequently, miners, mission runners, and alliance jump freighter pilots moving in from lowsec are at much greater risk to ganking, but the ships on the main trade routes between hubs are very difficult to gank.
The result is the demise of fish-in-a-barrel style ganking we see in Uedama and Niarja, but an overall buff to gankers who actively hunt for targets or play the meta game. |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2016.09.19 00:03:02 -
[2] - Quote
So what Sec lvl Jita or Amarr will have? i m bad at maths. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26866
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Posted - 2016.09.19 00:03:12 -
[3] - Quote
Changing the security status of the choke points on a dynamic basis such as you suggest won't really change the amount of ganking that occurs in those systems; as long as people make themselves profitable or easy to gank, gankers will simply throw more ships at them.
TL;DR N+1 would negate such a change.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3525
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Posted - 2016.09.19 00:08:17 -
[4] - Quote
Do it the other way round.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 00:11:01 -
[5] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:will simply throw more ships at them.
Increasing the price of doing so and thus the point at which it ceases to be profitable.
It is much more difficult to suicide gank in 1.0 than 0.5.
Thus gankers who go slightly OFF the beaten path will be rewarded by greater profitability.
Atomeon wrote:So what Sec lvl Jita or Amarr will have? i m bad at maths.
Well, the number of systems counted in the average for the divisor would have to be fine tuned, but the result should be that the trade routes will all be above the average and thus result in a security of 1.0. |
Faylee Freir
Commonwealth Mercenaries Vendetta Mercenary Group
320
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Posted - 2016.09.19 00:50:42 -
[6] - Quote
No youre wrong. The main ganking group, Miniluv has a threshold for what they will gank. Even in systems like Jita and Perimeter they are ganking because Jonah is right... People make it profitable for them to gank, even in worst case scenario situations.
Even though your change wouldnt effect a group like Miniluv much, it will make the smaller guys move around a bit more. I think a dybamix security status is a cool idea but I think it would be a bit tilted in the other direction to basically have these trade hub highways with 1.0 sec status.
With some more discussion this seems like a potentially cool idea.
HTFU
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 01:03:40 -
[7] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:it will make the smaller guys move around a bit more
I'm going to interpret this as a backhanded acknowledgement that **** has gotten well out of hand with some groups blowing up freighters that are just on the breakeven line.
Faylee Freir wrote:With some more discussion this seems like a potentially cool idea.
Thank you.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 01:42:29 -
[8] - Quote
I think the general idea has merit, but is tracking the wrong indicator of security and is the wrong way around.
Particularly in highsec, what makes a system risky is the amount of criminal activity occurring, not the amount of traffic passing through.
So it should be based on kills, not jumps.
Keep the trade hubs as they are and then change the sec status based on the number of losses in a system. Start high and then drop the sec status as the amount of PvP kills increase. An inverse relationship.
Then it's in the gankers interests to keep activity high and also in the haulers interest to avoid being ganked. Freighter pilots would not only be making themselves safer by flying safely, but they'd also be making it harder for gankers as the sec status of a system remains/returns to a high level.
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 01:51:31 -
[9] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: Keep the trade hubs as they are and then change the sec status based on the number of losses in a system. Start high and then drop the sec status as the amount of PvP kills increase. An inverse relationship.
I like where you're going, but there's just one problem.
To avoid JUST Niarja, takes the route from Jita to Amarr from 10 jumps to 46.
It is ALWAYS going to be a choke point. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:03:55 -
[10] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: Keep the trade hubs as they are and then change the sec status based on the number of losses in a system. Start high and then drop the sec status as the amount of PvP kills increase. An inverse relationship.
I like where you're going, but there's just one problem. To avoid JUST Niarja, takes the route from Jita to Amarr from 10 jumps to 46. It is ALWAYS going to be a choke point. Faylee is correct that there are groups in EVE that can pull off a hit no matter what the security status is, and they will naturally congregate to the best hunting grounds, WHICH ARE THE CHOKE POINTS. And they will bring the security status down, increasing profitability to more groups, who bring it down further. The security system you described turns ganking in chokepoint systems into a positive feedback loop. Sure, but with the change in structure along these lines, all systems would start out at 1.0 or 0.9 sec status.
So gankers would have to work hard to, with the one major issue being sacrificial altos they could gank in order yo bring the sec status down. If there is an algorithm that could be used so the risk of that was minimised, then that would be a good thing.
In addition, people don't avoid Niarja now. Why would they under a new system?
Plus, gankers might find a different system more appropriate to try to bring down the sec status. Play all around and more at a meta level, which provides more challenge and varied play for everyone.
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:06:34 -
[11] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Sure, but with the change in structure along these lines, all systems would start out at 1.0 or 0.9 sec status.
So what you're proposing is that instead of security starting out in negative numbers out in nullsec and gradually ramping up as you get closer and closer to dense civilization, that as soon as you cross out of low security it shoots up to 1.0 and then drops back down towards .5 as you get closer and closer to dense civilization?
You realize how ridiculous that sounds? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:11:07 -
[12] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Sure, but with the change in structure along these lines, all systems would start out at 1.0 or 0.9 sec status. So what you're proposing is that instead of security starting out in negative numbers out in nullsec and gradually ramping up as you get closer and closer to dense civilization, that as soon as you cross out of low security it shoots up to 1.0 and then drops back down towards .5 as you get closer and closer to dense civilization? You realize how ridiculous that sounds? No, that's a ridiculous interpretation.
Sec status now is not strictly tied to proximity and doesn't gradually ramp up.
Orvolle for example is highsec borderng nullsec.
You're talking about making highsec safer based on traffic. Nourvakaiken then could end up at sec status 1.0 right next to lowsec. Some of the starter systems at sec status 1.0 are 2 jumps from lowsec.
If you want to widen this so that proximity is included, then the whole idea is stupid because there is no guarantee with your system that 'density of population' has any match to proximity in relation to lowsec or nullsec.
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Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
429
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:22:44 -
[13] - Quote
1. No 2. People gank succesfully in 1.0 so whats the point
Fixing sec level of the system doesn't fix stupid
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:22:59 -
[14] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:If you want to widen this so that proximity is included, then the whole idea is stupid because there is no guarantee with your system that 'density of population' has any match to proximity in relation to lowsec or nullsec.
You've started to illustrate why I worded it the way I did.
Set aside the starter systems. Automatic 1.0 for those; better paid police, whatever explanation you need.
So...
As I see it, ASIDE FROM THE STARTER SYSTEMS, there is no 1.0 space by default. Every system in high security space (aside from starters) has a resting point of .5 for security.
As player population increases (however you want to measure it) security increases. There are more people, ergo there are more eyes on things and more police.
This forces ALL behaviors (ratting, ganking, mining) to balance safety against return (or for gankers, certainty of prey vs profitability). But it dynamically adapts to the players behavior. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:25:42 -
[15] - Quote
I actually see this being a very one-sided benefit for freighters.
They're rewarded for following the beaten path. It increases sec status, making ganking more costly. Gankers on the other hand are rewarded for avoiding the beaten path.
Net result is the gankers all end up where the freighters are not.
If you want to make it better, I would actually do the opposite. The more you use a route, the lower the security status goes. If you want an RP reason, you could think that the increased traffic makes security of the system more onerous and difficult, thus causing a lower response time.
With the sec status moving the other way, freighters are encouraged to forge their own path, spreading them and the gankers out. Seems a shame to have such a huge universe, and only use a small part of it. |
Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:38:48 -
[16] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote: They're rewarded for following the beaten path. It increases sec status, making ganking more costly. Gankers on the other hand are rewarded for avoiding the beaten path.
I do believe you've grasped the basic idea. Except you're missing one key point.
THEY DON'T ALL LIVE ON THE BEATEN PATH.
What this does is incentivize gankers to spend more time trying to hunt alliance traffic moving in from lowsec with moon goo and moving out towards their jump freighter staging points.
As it is right now it's SAFER to move something from your jump freighter staging station to the closest hub than it is to move from one hub to another hub. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:43:54 -
[17] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Old Pervert wrote: They're rewarded for following the beaten path. It increases sec status, making ganking more costly. Gankers on the other hand are rewarded for avoiding the beaten path.
I do believe you've grasped the basic idea. Except you're missing one key point. THEY DON'T ALL LIVE ON THE BEATEN PATH. What this does is incentivize gankers to spend more time trying to hunt alliance traffic moving in from lowsec with moon goo and moving out towards their jump freighter staging points. With free clones coming in a couple of months, what this incentivises is people to roll lots of free accounts, placing the characters along the common hauling paths so those systems are always at high sec status.
Those characters never need to move, so even if 1 system was at a low sec status, players could I'll accounts and log characters off in system even if there's no station. Log them in the jump a few gates, or just leave them logged off if its population based and not jump based.
The server would see the system population/jumps increase and increase the sec status.
This would be easy to manipulate and players would do it.
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:45:33 -
[18] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
The server would see the system population increase and increase the sec status.
This would be easy to manipulate.
Which is why I proposed using jump traffic. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:46:51 -
[19] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
The server would see the system population increase and increase the sec status.
This would be easy to manipulate.
Which is why I proposed using jump traffic. See my edit.
Can be manipulated either way.
On top of that, as jumps increase and sec status increases, more gankers are required to achieve the same gank; which of course means more jumps and a further increase in sec status, even where a lot of the jumps re by people wanting to make the system dangerous.
That's arse backwards.
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 02:53:53 -
[20] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: See my edit.
Can be manipulated either way.
You're correct that people could create traffic elsewhere off the paths to mess with the averages. However it would take A LOT of traffic.
Now, you could mitigate it by calculating the amount of mass moved... or ignoring alpha traffic for the calculation. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:00:57 -
[21] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: See my edit.
Can be manipulated either way.
You're correct that people could create traffic elsewhere off the paths to mess with the averages. However it would take A LOT of traffic. Now, you could mitigate it by calculating the amount of mass moved... or ignoring alpha traffic for the calculation. Then put some numbers down.
If your saying it would be a lot of traffic required, then most of highsec will be 0.5, so what are your numbers?
The big disadvantage being that all the current hauling not being done directly between the trade hubs becomes more difficult, making industry more difficult in the process.
Join the haulers channel mailing list and see how much hauling is done all across highsec.
Drop the sec status of many of those systems and freighters won't go there. No freighters, hauling contracts don't get picked up and industry suffers.
So what's your numbers?
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:04:27 -
[22] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
If your saying it would be a lot of traffic required, then most of highsec will be 0.5, so what are your numbers?
I'd have to actually simulate it by downloading the API data and running it.
If a CCP member actually shows any interest in this idea, I'll do that work. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
45087
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:06:56 -
[23] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
If your saying it would be a lot of traffic required, then most of highsec will be 0.5, so what are your numbers?
I'd have to actually simulate it by downloading the API data and running it. If a CCP member actually shows any interest in this idea, I'll do that work. So you won't even do the work to show it will work until CCP show interest?
Yeah good luck.
How can anyone judge the worth if it's all just imaginary numbers?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:22:23 -
[24] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Pirokobo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
If your saying it would be a lot of traffic required, then most of highsec will be 0.5, so what are your numbers?
I'd have to actually simulate it by downloading the API data and running it. If a CCP member actually shows any interest in this idea, I'll do that work. So you won't even do the work to show it will work until CCP show interest? Yeah good luck. How can anyone judge the worth if it's all just imaginary numbers?
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:24:30 -
[25] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote: THEY DON'T ALL LIVE ON THE BEATEN PATH.
No need to yell.
As you originally proposed it you'll see a bunch of small branches coalesce into big trunks of traffic. The big trunks of traffic will be avoided, and it will be the small branches that the gankers are encouraged to target. Sadly because the traffic is very low in those systems (1-2 jumps per hour, lets say) they don't find many people to gank. Lets say they're 3 jumps away on average from a heavy traffic route, you've got those 3 jumps to find them before the profit point on ganking goes way down.
As I proposed it, small branches of traffic remain small branches. Traffic spreads out more, and a ganker stands a greater likelihood that a freighter will come through their small branch. Those 3 jumps away become moot, you've got until they get to a few systems out where traffic starts to naturally coalesce through lack of different options. |
Pirokobo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:27:02 -
[26] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:
As you originally proposed it you'll see a bunch of small branches coalesce into big trunks of traffic. The big trunks of traffic will be avoided, and it will be the small branches that the gankers are encouraged to target. Sadly because the traffic is very low in those systems (1-2 jumps per hour, lets say) they don't find many people to gank. Lets say they're 3 jumps away on average from a heavy traffic route, you've got those 3 jumps to find them before the profit point on ganking goes way down.
:CLAP:
You have just described EXACTLY what I was aiming to achieve. Bravo. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
1050
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Posted - 2016.09.19 03:56:01 -
[27] - Quote
This idea is stupid for all the wrong reasons.
>It makes high traffic areas safe making dangerous systems (people avoid them) more dangerous forever concentrating that. It doesn't make for dangerous chokepoints but rather reverses the whole thingmaking systems like haatamo and juunigashi more dangerous than uedama.
Now if you turned this around and maybe excluded trade hubs because that would just make everything wrong you might be on to something but your current math is whacked in the head with a freaking sledgehammer.
I swear these carebears get the most "balanced ideas" balanced for oh it's gota be some equation let me write down some random numbers to make it look valid because science is truth and science is numbers my crap idea has numbers so its automatically right yeah, yeah?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18083
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Posted - 2016.09.19 04:49:46 -
[28] - Quote
Why do we even need to do this?
The chances of being ganked in a freighter stands at 0.2% per 1.5-2 million jumps. |
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
429
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Posted - 2016.09.19 04:55:21 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Why do we even need to do this?
The chances of being ganked in a freighter stands at 0.2% per 1.5-2 million jumps.
Because apparently for OP and many other haulers this simply lacks their stamp of approval of "Safe Enough" wherein they would probably prefer the number sit around 0.002% per however million jumps they want.
GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú
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Sitting Bull Lakota
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
164
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Posted - 2016.09.19 09:16:02 -
[30] - Quote
I don't particularly care for reddit. Maybe I'm just some prejudiced against them for their public statements on political matters. Maybe I don't like the system of rewarding group think. Maybe I'm not-so-secretly jealous of the attention the devs (one or two higher ups in particular) give to reddit instead of their own forum. I don't know.
Whatever the case, starting a proposal with a link to reddit and a phrase alluding to its popularity or your intent to "share it here too" seems to drastically lower my interest in the proposal. But then, I'm just some random on the forums. Why should anyone care if I'm interested? |
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