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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
157
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Posted - 2016.10.12 16:08:30 -
[1] - Quote
Dex Cordell wrote:Brusanan wrote:Robin Wren wrote:Games of chance are not games of skill (poker), but as part of poker involves elements of chance where is the line ? I'm sure Eve Online Hold'Em is covered by this ban on gambling as well. the alliance tournament is a gamble as well, if you get two teams of equal firepower and skill to play against each other, the outcome of that match is pure chance
Yeah, but it's run by the dev and not a third party. Straw man fail. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
157
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 16:23:49 -
[2] - Quote
Dex Cordell wrote:Urziel99 wrote:Dex Cordell wrote:Brusanan wrote:Robin Wren wrote:Games of chance are not games of skill (poker), but as part of poker involves elements of chance where is the line ? I'm sure Eve Online Hold'Em is covered by this ban on gambling as well. the alliance tournament is a gamble as well, if you get two teams of equal firepower and skill to play against each other, the outcome of that match is pure chance Yeah, but it's run by the dev and not a third party. Straw man fail. the protecting minors crap doesn't care about which party it is, actually :)
Of course then you have to prove that there is a minor competing in the tournament. Good luck with that. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
157
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 16:25:50 -
[3] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:Toobo wrote:Then suddenly, you change EULA. OK, CCP as a company can do that, any time, to change EULA and TOS, with or without notice. I can even accept that, I have no sense of entitlement on this at all.
But to TAKE AWAY something that has all been done within EULA, by applying the suddenly changed EULA to the previous periods and making any ISK gains from those void? You can say, ok from today, no more, fair enough. But to say, ok, no more from today, and we will take what you earned before too, because we changed the rules today and want to apply it to the time when this rule didn't exist.
CCP didn't change the EULA without notice. This dev blog was them giving notice that they will be changing it on Nov 8. CCP didn't ban IWI over the changed EULA. They banned them for RMT, something which has always been against the rules. Other gambling sites remain allowed until the changed EULA comes into force. They have the option for a graceful shutdown. They also have the option of keeping all the money they hold because today is when they decided to turn their legit gambling site into a scam. Actually, that raises a question: Are gambling scams allowed under the new EULA ? Operations which pretend to be a game of chance, but are really keeping all the ISK that they get their hand on. Nobody wins anything, because they aren't games of chance.
You'd probably have to prove it to Falcon and Peligro. Both of whom would probably ban first and ask questions later. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
157
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 16:33:18 -
[4] - Quote
Erika Mizune wrote:Obil Que wrote:TL:DR I gave billions of my money to a guy and he got banned *tears* Why CCP, why? Did you read his post? He's talking about the players and how Eve Bet got time to properly honor last minute withdraws until the change goes in full effect but honest players on IWI didn't get the same. CCP also closed and seized Eve Casino - Which haven't even been open yet! - they haven't accepted ANY ISK yet since it was still in testing, but yet all the bankers there have had their isk seized as well? There are things that don't make sense here - I understand it's a risk to hand over your isk to these sites in the first place to feed your addiction, but they did give Eve Bet the benefit of the doubt.
Probably due to IronBank's involvement with both. Guilt by association. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
157
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 16:38:24 -
[5] - Quote
Vicata Heth wrote:Janeos wrote:Momiji Sakora wrote:Dex Cordell wrote:so if I read this correctly, me playing Hold'em with and for ISK is going to be shut down as well? I'm somehow failing to catch the drift here. Why would RMT require this kind of harsh measures against everyone in general, instead of applying the rules already in place to those caught breaking them, as it was till now? That's just gross... I think the major bit of this is that it's cost CCP a ton of money and manhours to investigate RMT in the cases named, and others. Time and again isk gambling sites seem to slip into RMT along the way - and CCP have had to investigate. Not to mention accusations true or false on these sites having to be investigated. So why not save time and just cut them out entirely. Beyond that, it's a form of income that is completely immune to in-game interdiction of any kind. They have no stations to destroy, no logistics to disrupt, no ratters to gank. They were more untouchable by capsuleers than teh HK Fortizar. Tell us where the bad bankers touched you. Ironic to see a goon posting about untouchable income, of all people. Technetium anyone?
You mean the towers that could be reinforced to stop the moon mining? Apples meet oranges. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
161
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Posted - 2016.10.12 18:08:47 -
[6] - Quote
Erika Mizune wrote:Hesod Adee wrote:baltec1 wrote: From what I can tell, IWI and casino were running a RMT operation while EVEbet were legit. So EVEbet gets time to get its **** in order before shutting down while the other two got nuked.
Coupled with this is the whole steam getting sued for in game gambling so CCP are pulling the plug before something stupid happens and some American lawyer goes after them.
Casino wasn't involved in RMT. They were banned for breaking a different rule. From the dev blog: Quote:The third party service EVE Casino has been shut down in game, and all ISK and assets have been confiscated after multiple and sustained breaches of our Developer License Agreement. Permanent account suspensions have been issued against those involved. But they were still banned for doing something that was against the rules at the time they did it. Even if so, the isk they took from the bankers on Eve Casino was their own isk that they earned and had never touched the casino 'floor' because it wasn't even open yet - why did they take their isk? Also it was pretty vague on the 'developer tos' violation.
Word on the street is a violation of the TOS for use of the SSO and API for the gambling site. Can't verify though as I'm not a developer. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
162
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Posted - 2016.10.12 19:33:12 -
[7] - Quote
Toobo wrote:The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.
Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?
Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.
This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.
All those things would be against EULA now right?
Pretty much. Safe bet you can thank the people suing Valve for triggering the legal team at CCP. Or thank the UK Gambling Commission's recent white paper on the subject of gambling and virtual currencies. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
163
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Posted - 2016.10.12 20:12:01 -
[8] - Quote
Minerva Arbosa wrote:Elliott Spitzer wrote:Toobo wrote:If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?
WTF is going on seriously. What? They are doing this because there is a massive amount of evidence involved. There is no evidence as they can just do what they want why they want to. If there was evidence, then CCP would release reports on big items such as this and explain in wording how they found the link between RMT and IWI. No report, no evidence. Goes back to just because they wanted to.
Or they don't want to reveal how they know so the next guy covers their tracks better. They stand to lose out on plex purchases from compulsive gamblers. So they would want to have cause. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
167
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Posted - 2016.10.12 22:53:04 -
[9] - Quote
Lyra Everstar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ruddger wrote:Elenahina wrote:Lyra Everstar wrote:The one good thing about this change is it bans isk doublers. I was unaware they were third parties. I mean let's be honest. Those are scams As ccp has used the word... they are. You and ccp are first and second party. Anyone else is third party. According to the new eula even internal corp hosted pvp tournaments would be now bannable if they have a buy in. Hahahahaha No. I'm serious, ISK doublers are encouraging people to engage in a game of chance, the only change might be if CCP banned ISK doublers from paying out ISK to lure more suckers in, turning it from a lottery into a 'donation', but the current system where they do sometimes pay out (unless they argued it wasn't based on chance, but only on a purely predator/prey decision to see how much they could scam off someone, which might lead to someone trying to create a 'legit' lottery), it'd lead to the absurd situation of having a fake lottery is fine, but a real one is not.
Fake lotteries that reference the API were smacked down by CCP some time ago. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
173
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Posted - 2016.10.13 12:40:56 -
[10] - Quote
Senjiu Kanuba wrote:Elenahina wrote:Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:Ex-post facto punishments with rule changes--e.g., punishing IWI gamblers and dealers--isn't cool, ever; it's immoral (read: dickish) and creates an unstable economy.
Guess I'm taking another extended break from the game, though I don't foresee any big events on the horizon to draw me back in. Maybe you should go back and actually read what happened. They aren't being punished because of changes to the rules. They're being punished for breaking rules that were already in place. Stupidity isn't cool either. You should try and avoid it in the future. Is that what happened? To me it looks more like they're changing the rules and stopping gambling that way. It's not about the RMT-people, it's about the other parties that also did gambling, like eve-bet for example. They didn't break any rules that were already in place (at least not to my knowledge and apparently also not to CCP's knowledge). But they will break the rules if they continue doing what they do and THAT is why they're shut down. Yes, IWI was punished for RMT and that's okay. But I don't see why all the other 'legal' gambling services are also shut down. On a related but different topic: Will CCP host the alliance tournament stream on all weekends again next year, like they did in the past?
1. Eve-bet isn't shut down. The have been ordered to case operations by Nov. 8th. 2. If you want to know why they are are doing it. Possible answers include the Valve lawsuits. The UK Gaming Commission's recent White paper. That they got sick and tired of dealing with RMT through the casino websites. Or they just felt like changing the rules to their game, which is their right. I'm sure they have already anticipated losing customers over it. I'm sure they don't really care. |
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
175
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Posted - 2016.10.13 19:27:04 -
[11] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Eve Bet didn't break any rules that we know of.
So why punish them? Because gambling with virtual game currencies while legal become dubious when RL currencies become involved. So, no RMTing then, why make a new rule for that? Look any legit site was operating within the law because there was no conversion to real money, it was all just 0's and 1's somewhere. So you ban and destroy the sites that break the law and you leave the sites alone that operate within the rules. You know, like a normal sane person would do. EDIT: Like honestly, does it not feel really damn dumb that EOH poker takes a hit in this? Its been here since here was here. Well technically these days lots of RL money is just 0's and 1's too. But putting that aside... Did you not read anything about the problems with just going after the ones engaged in RMT? Are you 100% absolutely positive that Eve-Bet has NOT and NEVER will engage in RMT? If the answer is no, then there is risk associated with keeping them around. And you know very damn well that governments do not always do the sensible and/or sane thing. The government (State and/or Federal) could decide that instead of going after every gambling site it is easier to go after the common denominator that is facilitating the gambling.
With the Valve cases ongoing from CS:GO and the UK going after the FIFA gambling sites. I am not surprised that CCP is trying to kill it before they get dragged into a court somewhere.
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
177
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Posted - 2016.10.13 20:30:41 -
[12] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: You're not really gambling, everything in use is actually CCP's.
I'm sure Valve has similar terminology in their ToS, and I am sure EA did with FIFA '16. It hasn't kept the regulators away.
So, yeah it sucks that there is some collateral damage with more reputable groups and a big source of isk funding for events and media is going away. But it's either that or risk CCP getting sued into bankruptcy. For all it's flaws I'll take a diminished Eve over no Eve any day. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
178
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Posted - 2016.10.14 00:32:54 -
[13] - Quote
slphy vansyl wrote:slphy vansyl wrote:was so happy to make my little raffle when doing some hauling.... just lose some billions here... (why dont ccp use them for charity?dont be greedy!) anyway ,now i talk to wife while hauling! thanks ;) find on a forum.... Here is a little fun fact if the math is right: ISK banned from the latest CCP tweet of two pilots involved : https://twitter.com/...800037326221314 GM X (RMT)> 19,506,787,657,474.00 ISK GM Z (Botting)> 10,031,843,994,887.00 ISK ISK converted into PLEX: 25,685.77 PLEX (JITA average as of this post of 1.15 bill ISK) PLEX converted to USD if you use the largest bulk buy of 28 from the EvE Online website: ($17.495 per PLEX) $449,372.55 TOTAL Someone just might be jumping out of a window over this....... ....
That tweet from peligro is over 1 year old. also you link is broken.
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
179
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Posted - 2016.10.14 13:40:54 -
[14] - Quote
Eisen Wor'sha wrote:I apologize if this has been asked but will this apply to ISK sports betting? It's not a game of chance. In fact, ISK gambling on sports has made me better at fantasy sports because there's value associated with my bets, and I tend to care more about it.
What gambling I could have done with real money has been moved to New Eden where I'm more betting my pride and half an hour of ratting.
If this constitutes transferring ISK or assets to a third party for games of chance, then me becoming a bookie for NFL and MLB games is also a violation of the EULA?
WHAT THE HELL IT SOUNDS LIKE FUN PLEASE LET ME DO IT
Safe bet is they will treat it as a game of chance. |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
180
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Posted - 2016.10.14 18:38:52 -
[15] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:I'm going to agree with this last line, not because of this thread, but overall over the last couple of years and the changes they put in.
This change almost smells like a distraction to what's coming in November, almost sort of maybe definitley. Please explain. I'm having a really hard time seeing how a response to a breach of the EULA linked to IWI and the resulting policy change could be in anyone's mind related to upcoming changes in the manner you state. Sure, it could be in relation to the possible influx of alphas making gambling more prolific and/or leading to larger operations with new ways to hide RMT, but that doesn't seem like what you're insinuating.
I think he's referencing CCP's unerring ability to lose portions of their player base to bad changes (Phoebe, Aegis, etc.) |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
180
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Posted - 2016.10.14 19:34:49 -
[16] - Quote
PsychoBitch wrote:When does eve-bet get shut down?
These third party services are free to finalize these wagers over the course of the weekend given that they have not broken our rules, but must wind down operations in an orderly fashion before 11:00 UTC on Tuesday November 8th, 2016.
It's in the dev blog, near the top |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
186
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Posted - 2016.10.20 22:57:30 -
[17] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Elenahina wrote:Hetty Lang wrote:So does this mean that if your account hasn't been sub or played with for 3 months is a breach of the EULA and your account will be deleted?
For the thousandth time, no. It means that if your account isn't subbed for 90 consecutive days, CCP can, at their discretion, delete it. For the record, they could always do this - they just shortened the timeline to 90 days from 180. However, in thirteen years, I don't think they've ever actually deleted any account. The only reason they would do that is if they needed to trim back the database size for some reason. I thought they deleted a bunch of trial accounts past the 180 day mark, but as they were trials...meh...who cares. As for paid subs, I don't think they have ever done this.
They were from trials that were never subbed, they did it to free up names. and IIRC they only did it once. |
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