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Stan Durden
Anomalous Existence Spatial Instability
23
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Posted - 2016.10.16 07:57:43 -
[1] - Quote
Adding resistance or immunity to webs and grapplers for Assault Frigates could help them find a place in gangs and fleets again.
I think seeing AF as either a persistent threat to fragile support, or a highly survivable frig-class tackle option would be a good place for them to sit. They could be seen as the "behind enemy lines" frig class. Making them Immune or resistant to webs and grapplers would help them be more survivable when flying in a more aggressive style.
Resistance to Web effects would make AF uniquely survivable at close range while still preserving the importance of choice between MWD or AB fit.
Some care should be taken perhaps to tone them down a tad to ensure things like the harpy rail fleet doesn't get out of hand. It is likely that a balance pass would be in order at the same time to make sure AF are not OP if given the new role bonus. Care should also be taken to ensure 10mn AB fits would not be OP.
While it is likely that a flat out immunity to webs and grapplers may be too much, I think it is worth considering as an option for testing; especially if you include a balance pass to tone them down appropriately. |
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
93
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Posted - 2016.10.17 07:37:12 -
[2] - Quote
But then they are OP! I love AF and hate T3D, but this makes 10mn ab fits unstoppable. Also there will be little choice. AB op.
Come get some cancer @ my blog !
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Stan Durden
Anomalous Existence Spatial Instability
25
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Posted - 2016.10.17 07:45:32 -
[3] - Quote
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:But then they are OP! I love AF and hate T3D, but this makes 10mn ab fits unstoppable. Also there will be little choice. AB op.
Please read section 4 above. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3565
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Posted - 2016.10.17 11:38:23 -
[4] - Quote
Well that makes it fine then...
Nerfs? What nerfs? Care? What care?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3425
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Posted - 2016.10.17 11:42:31 -
[5] - Quote
AF should be revisited, there were the first ships in the parlance pass and could probably use a new look. I don't believe that web immunity would be a good idea though.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
18660
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Posted - 2016.10.17 12:15:59 -
[6] - Quote
never going to not want an ab bonus
Praposal:Un-F**k Locator Agents
Praposal:Un-F**k NPC Corps
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18310
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Posted - 2016.10.17 12:28:46 -
[7] - Quote
Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. |
Booty Mc Toothy
4
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Posted - 2016.10.17 13:54:53 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. Pretty much
An ab bonus would be cool though |
Paige Vyvorant
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.10.17 14:26:30 -
[9] - Quote
Single Prop Module that gives you MWD and AB in one for AF's only. Its been mentioned many times in the past. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1429
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Posted - 2016.10.17 15:29:12 -
[10] - Quote
While I agree that that tech 3 minmatar abominations needs a handful of target painters to make it large enough to be hit by the nerf-bat, may I remind everyone that the Confessor is not a titan class ship.
In addition to that a slasher should not ever fit a catalyst at point blank.
The assault ships were not meant to shoot down destroyer class ships but cruisers and up. They can still do exactly that but since the rest of the class has forgotten everything about it, people don't fly them with that purpose anymore.
The mobile battlefield got one more variable to consider and we lost 95% of the class already.
They should let me in charge of ship-balancing. At least I would do it right.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2283
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Posted - 2016.10.17 17:41:47 -
[11] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:never going to not want an ab bonus
Drop the misplaced mwd bonus and replace it with a frigate AB speed bonus - Eve becomes a better place! AF running around w/ speed bonused cruiser AB would not be an improvement.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10744
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Posted - 2016.10.17 17:46:24 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:The assault ships were not meant to shoot down destroyer class ships but cruisers and up. They can still do exactly that but since the rest of the class has forgotten everything about it, Yes and no.
An Assault Frig can potentially go toe to toe with a Tech 1 Destroyer... much in the same way a Heavy Assault Cruiser can go up against a Battle Cruiser.
The advantage both in terms of raw power and price will be with the larger class. Meanwhile the only real advantage the smaller classes have is mobility and speed.
No... even with all the changes that have been happening to other ships, AFs still had a bit of a niche in the world of small gangs.
Then came Tech 3 Destroyers. The Confessor was first and it was largely fine. It had strengths, it had weaknesses, and it had a nifty gimmick. Then came the rest of them. And they did not share the same "some strengths, some weaknesses" paradigm that the Confessor did. The Svipul in particular was the worst offender of this.
And so now we have a some ships, in a particular ship class, that can pretty much do everything that Assault Frigates can do... but better in ever way. They are faster, hit harder, tank more, track better, and possess a much more forgiving slot layout and more generous amounts of CPU-PG.
Even if you give AFs an AB bonus... it still doesn't change the fact that T3ds are better in almost all respects.
How did you Veterans start?
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
856
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Posted - 2016.10.18 03:53:56 -
[13] - Quote
Stan Durden wrote: Some care should be taken perhaps to tone them down a tad to ensure things like the harpy rail fleet doesn't get out of hand. It is likely that a balance pass would be in order at the same time to make sure AF are not OP if given the new role bonus. Care should also be taken to ensure 10mn AB fits would not be OP. .
CCP only knows 2 ways to do this.
Remove low slots (presumably for MAPC installs). And/or gimp Grids.
Ships ccp has done to this become pita's to fit afterwards. You don't want to go here man. We can argue rabble rabble t3d all day long. The rabble rabble would get worse as even passable AF's get castrated even more.
I left in the days of 10mn worm and came back to the new castrated version. it got both low slot removed and grid nerf....fun times refitting that I tell you what. for me anyway. |
Valkin Mordirc
2592
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Posted - 2016.10.18 06:21:25 -
[14] - Quote
There is something called power creep and what Baltec said eluded to that,
If you keep buffing and buffing to achieve balance, You going to end up every ship having every role and bonus in the book.
AF's are useless because T3D's are borked, unborke the T3D's and AF's become viable.
#DeleteTheWeak
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1429
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Posted - 2016.10.18 07:04:04 -
[15] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:[...just shortening a bit... Then came Tech 3 Destroyers. The Confessor was first and it was largely fine. It had strengths, it had weaknesses, and it had a nifty gimmick. Then came the rest of them. And they did not share the same "some strengths, some weaknesses" paradigm that the Confessor did. The Svipul in particular was the worst offender of this.
And so now we have a some ships, in a particular ship class, that can pretty much do everything that Assault Frigates can do... but better in ever way. They are faster, hit harder, tank more, track better, and possess a much more forgiving slot layout and more generous amounts of CPU-PG.
Even if you give AFs an AB bonus... it still doesn't change the fact that T3ds are better in almost all respects.
You are the first one to say it out loud and I agree with you in full that the Confessor was okay on day one.
What followed was almost not entirely minmatar biased op boat without weaknesses or downsides and a pre-nerfed Caldari one with another Island office running gag - can reload zee missiles very fast and stuff to make zee joke about zee rapid shooting zee missiles launchers.
And a Gallente one that commits suicide by undocking with bonuses that give a real feeling of assisted euthanization.
Now how do we nerf the Confessor, CCP nurf-bat?
We give zee mass of galaxy and remove zee capacitor since lazorboat + cap = very bad.
Leave minmatar as is and Caldari and Gallente can suck it anyways.
Then we make zee focus group to drift the focus of zee ship-class and call it a day, noone will notice...
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
9
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Posted - 2016.10.20 18:36:35 -
[16] - Quote
T3D Rebalance is coming. Stuff I read from the logs.
Take all with a grain of salt these are not quotes but derivations of me reading logs.
All T3D's - Sig increase and still hit max dps. Jackdaw Either +1 low, or -1 mid and +1 low. All T3D's - reduce the role DPS bonus, and put a DPS bonus into sharpshooter mode, meaning you cant turtle in defence mode.
I believe the damage bonus in sharpshooter mode will be a ROF Bonus so that the svipul alpha is nerfed.
Buff to Jackaw Nerf to aspects of svipul without outright breaking it, DPS same but in sharpshooter mode, alpha reduced.
All T3D's get a sig bump, which in a way is more of a nerf to confessor as its a sig tank ****. Confessor/Hecate get a cap reduction bonus when in sharpshooter.
The question is that enough to help AF's become usable again... the prop mod MWD/AB is sexy AF on AF. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18334
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Posted - 2016.10.20 20:26:24 -
[17] - Quote
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:T3D Rebalance is coming. Stuff I read from the logs.
Take all with a grain of salt these are not quotes but derivations of me reading logs.
All T3D's - Sig increase and still hit max dps. Jackdaw Either +1 low, or -1 mid and +1 low. All T3D's - reduce the role DPS bonus, and put a DPS bonus into sharpshooter mode, meaning you cant turtle in defence mode.
I believe the damage bonus in sharpshooter mode will be a ROF Bonus so that the svipul alpha is nerfed.
Buff to Jackaw Nerf to aspects of svipul without outright breaking it, DPS same but in sharpshooter mode, alpha reduced.
All T3D's get a sig bump, which in a way is more of a nerf to confessor as its a sig tank ****. Confessor/Hecate get a cap reduction bonus when in sharpshooter.
The question is that enough to help AF's become usable again... the prop mod MWD/AB is sexy AF on AF.
Probably not, but at least they will just be overpowered rather than ridiculously overpowered |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1433
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Posted - 2016.10.20 23:16:02 -
[18] - Quote
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:T3D Rebalance is coming. Stuff I read from the logs.
...more terrible news for Ascension....
Oh god no!
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3254
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Posted - 2016.10.21 04:18:06 -
[19] - Quote
Booty Mc Toothy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. Pretty much
even before t3d AFs were not in a good place
BLOPS Hauler
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
869
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Posted - 2016.10.21 11:11:13 -
[20] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Booty Mc Toothy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. Pretty much even before t3d AFs were not in a good place
Pirates made them look bad before t3d.
Hell then CCP did t1 rebalance to frigs...and they looked bad.
then inty rebalance, and they looked bad lol.
This ship class just has been meh forever. There are decent AF's out there. Its just the slight catch you have to cough up the massive isk amounts for a say freki. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3266
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Posted - 2016.10.21 12:29:50 -
[21] - Quote
I could see a Web reducing being interesting but immunity would be to strong imo
BLOPS Hauler
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
8
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Posted - 2016.10.24 05:50:13 -
[22] - Quote
Instead of Web immune you could also take it the other way and make their MWD Scram immune. They do get MWD sig bonuses already after all. This would just be taking that technology one step further.
This would make it so that they are free to get completely in your face without getting completely shut down in a dog fight. Sure webs would still slow them down but they may be able to overheat their way out of it. They would be the Aces of MWD combat, always being able to keep the speed advantage |
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
9
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Posted - 2016.10.24 12:51:43 -
[23] - Quote
Deckel wrote:Instead of Web immune you could also take it the other way and make their MWD Scram immune. They do get MWD sig bonuses already after all. This would just be taking that technology one step further.
This would make it so that they are free to get completely in your face without getting completely shut down in a dog fight. Sure webs would still slow them down but they may be able to overheat their way out of it. They would be the Aces of MWD combat, always being able to keep the speed advantage
The AB/MWD dual module would solve that without having them be too OP.
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
8
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Posted - 2016.10.24 23:24:17 -
[24] - Quote
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:Deckel wrote:Instead of Web immune you could also take it the other way and make their MWD Scram immune. They do get MWD sig bonuses already after all. This would just be taking that technology one step further.
This would make it so that they are free to get completely in your face without getting completely shut down in a dog fight. Sure webs would still slow them down but they may be able to overheat their way out of it. They would be the Aces of MWD combat, always being able to keep the speed advantage The AB/MWD dual module would solve that without having them be too OP.
And further gimp the AF by making it necessary to use up a utility Mid and stressing the powergrid? It would be better to make it so that such a dual prop fit becomes completely irrelevant on these ships. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
711
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Posted - 2016.10.25 01:10:10 -
[25] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. You know, I'm probably not going to be the first person to notice/point this out, but I think the T3D problem is speed. It borks one of the biggest pillars of CCP ship balance to have T3Ds go that fast. The only thing frigates really have is speed, and to have a bigger class of ship with more weaponry, defense, speed, and broad tactical ability, means that it literally obsoletes everything below it in a heartbeat.
Some of those advantages come naturally from being a bigger ship class, and some others come naturally from being another tech tier higher. But you can't have all that AND speed. That's the frigates' domain. I think the only thing the T3D need is removal of propulsion mode, and then they're fine. They'd still be pretty powerful (especially in the right hands), but that puts them back in line where they're supposed to be.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18364
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Posted - 2016.10.25 05:07:47 -
[26] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:baltec1 wrote:Want to buff AF?
Nerf the T3D. You know, I'm probably not going to be the first person to notice/point this out, but I think the T3D problem is speed. It borks one of the biggest pillars of CCP ship balance to have T3Ds go that fast. The only thing frigates really have is speed, and to have a bigger class of ship with more weaponry, defense, speed, and broad tactical ability, means that it literally obsoletes everything below it in a heartbeat. Some of those advantages come naturally from being a bigger ship class, and some others come naturally from being another tech tier higher. But you can't have all that AND speed. That's the frigates' domain. I think the only thing the T3D need is removal of propulsion mode, and then they're fine. They'd still be pretty powerful (especially in the right hands), but that puts them back in line where they're supposed to be.
Way more than just speed. They are rolling around with 30k EHP, tiny sig, speed long range and firepower. I mean, compare your average svipul with a thrasher. There is no way a svipul is a destroyer when you look at those stats. |
GROUND XERO
Rennfeuer Project.Mayhem.
11
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Posted - 2016.10.25 05:37:52 -
[27] - Quote
So if we compare it to some other things.....
AF are like this .... compared to T3Ds ...
so why should ppl spend time on something that is "oldschool" like this? :_)
Nerf T3Ds and stop thinking about buffing ships or modules arround the OP thinngys! |
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
9
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Posted - 2016.10.25 12:50:40 -
[28] - Quote
GROUND XERO wrote:So if we compare it to some other things..... AF are like this .... compared to T3Ds ...so why should ppl spend time on something that is "oldschool" like this? :_) Nerf T3Ds and stop thinking about buffing ships or modules arround the OP thinngys!
Given they are T3's I guess they are supposed to be OP. Nerf announcement is imminent so we can all wait and see. Maybe they need more cost associated with the T3's if they are going to remain OP to represent the T3ness of it.
Whatever nerf is a week away.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2309
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Posted - 2016.10.25 14:46:32 -
[29] - Quote
GROUND XERO wrote:So if we compare it to some other things..... AF are like this .... compared to T3Ds ...so why should ppl spend time on something that is "oldschool" like this? :_) Nerf T3Ds and stop thinking about buffing ships or modules arround the OP thinngys!
AF were underused before T3D were in the game. They had a brief surge after their balance pass as everyone tried them out. They came out better due to some cpu/grid adjustments and a few mid and low slot adjustments. Folks hopped in and took to the skies. The problem was the misplaced MWD bonus. A scrammed AF dies quickly. Long range kiting fits just weren't that fun as drams and inties made a mockery of them. Sure they died slowly, but the point is they died.
Web resistance won't help them. Once they get scrammed - poof. The armor AF don't have enough mids for dual prop and tackle and the shield AF give up their tankability to sport all that mid slot candy. Neither option has been enough to ever put AF in a good place. MWD bonus makes them vulnerable to scrams which makes them unpopular. Web resistance won't fix that. Just about anything can kill a scrammed AF.
T3D - sure they are OP. That doesn't preclude making AF good. Again - just about anything kills a scrammed AF. Nerfing T3D won't bring AF back in line because they never were in line, so back isn't an option.
I may dislike T3D more than everyone (except Baltec1 - he's a nutter though), but that doesn't mean AF are in a good place.
AB bonus or bust!!!! |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
777
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Posted - 2016.10.25 16:28:46 -
[30] - Quote
AFs dont need gimmicks. They need grid and slot adjustments, potentially trait adjustments as well.
By making them web resistant, its a nerf to larger ships that dont need nerfing. AF are still good at dealing with larger ships for the most part. Its in their own class that they suffer.
To make them competitive in their class, they need more grid to fit decent fits without excessive pg/cpu mods. More cap, more base HP, and rolling some roles together to make room for other roles. Example is the jag and wolf both having 2 5% damage skills. Just make it a 10% damage and give the jag a shield boost bonus. Change hawk from shield boost to shield HP or missile explosion velocity bonus (like a good, tankier corax). Would be enough to make them strong, but not rely on silly gimmicks. More about fits and experience. As it should be.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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