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V'oba
Cosmodynamics
1
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Posted - 2011.12.23 04:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Disclaimer: i'm a long time lurker of the forums, but don't often post. taking a stab at it here. I'm also not some extremely experienced guy with 500 solo kills, but through modest experience and lots of reading, i think i have a fair handle on the overall balance of the game.
Anyway, I think we can all agree that T1 cruisers are lackluster for various reasons. In no particular order:
1. They are outclassed by the marginally more expensive BC class.
2. They are outclassed in some cases by Assault Frigates. AFs are similarly priced, sometimes achieve the same role, and are MUCH more survivable. (EDIT: by similarly priced, I am meaning including modules)
3. They are outclassed by their T2 counterparts. (this is more understandable and even necessary, but still magnifies the overall problem).
4. The tier system makes the majority of cruisers useless when compared to other cruisers of higher tiers.
I'm sure there are other factors that I just can't think of right now. But the question is - how do we bring T1 cruisers back up to par? Or is there a reasonable argument for why we should not?
I'll make the first attempt at some balance suggestions. These are very broad, so some of our more experienced forum-goers can get into the particulars of each individual ship if they so desire.
1. Simply bring the price down by decreasing the mineral cost of all cruisers.
2. Eliminate the tier system and make all cruisers good at their intended roles, IE: make every cruiser roughly as viable as the highest tier cruisers of each race.
3. Reduce the sig radius and/or increase the agility of most cruisers to make them less cannon-fodder for battlecruisers.
These are just my ideas, and i'm sure many of you have a more in-depth idea of what should be done. Please share and let's try to keep discussion civil. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
212
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Posted - 2011.12.23 04:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
V'oba wrote: 2. Eliminate the tier system and make all cruisers good at their intended roles, IE: make every cruiser roughly as viable as the highest tier cruisers of each race.
This is the only one I like, personally.
-Liang
Ed: Also, fix the horribly broken fittings some cruisers have. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Alara IonStorm
680
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Posted - 2011.12.23 04:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
You have a lot of it right. just some quick notes.
V'oba wrote: 1. They are outclassed by the marginally more expensive BC class.
3. They are outclassed by their T2 counterparts. (this is more understandable and even necessary, but still magnifies the overall problem). [/quote] A good part off it but the problem is that ships like the Nanocane are just plain better in all the right places. Not just the Nanocane but Shield DPS / Shield Range Battlcruisers in general tend to have the Scan Res and Speed required to be effective whilst having better fitting, better cap, better dmg, on avg more Drones and wholly superior tanks. They have to look at this kind of thing in relation to what Cruisers need so ships like the Cane can not tow there line.
As for T2's many of them are out classed by Battlcruisers often but more on that later.
V'oba wrote: 4. The tier system makes the majority of cruisers useless when compared to other cruisers of higher tiers.
Absolutely and it helps little that the higher Tier Cruisers are still inadequate
V'oba wrote: 1. Simply bring the price down by decreasing the mineral cost of all cruisers.
People will still fly Battlecruisers over them because they are not expensive. It is usability vs cost.
V'oba wrote: 2. Eliminate the tier system and make all cruisers good at their intended roles, IE: make every cruiser roughly as viable as the highest tier cruisers of each race.
3. Reduce the sig radius and/or increase the agility of most cruisers to make them less cannon-fodder for battlecruisers.
These are both on the right track.
V'oba wrote: I'm sure there are other factors that I just can't think of right now. But the question is - how do we bring T1 cruisers back up to par?
Roles are a good start along with slot / grid / stat buffs.
What you have to understand is it is not just T1 Cruisers it is every Cruiser that can not outrun Nano Battlecruisers or out tank and DPS. That is Faction and T2.
Look at the most effective Cruisers. The Blackbird for one. It is a knife, focused on doing it's role and it can do it in a way that can not be copied. The other EWAR Ships have one EWAR Bonus and in general there EWAR is less then effective and can fit comfortably on a Battlecruiser. Recons get heavy use as do Logi and Cruisers that Kite or Sig Tank.
Creating roles that can not be copied by Battlecruiser both Combat and Support that rely on Cruisers Sig / Speed /Scan Res and Bonuses to be effective in Skirmesh Warfare would be a big boost.
That and looking at there Fitting, Grid, Utility, Cap, Slot Number, Slot Layout, Bonuses, Tank, Speed, Agility and so on to find roles for each of them. |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
26
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Posted - 2011.12.23 04:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Stuff. For the sake of all that is holy Alara IonStorm, please read this!
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Liam Mirren
43
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Posted - 2011.12.23 04:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
You don't need to buff T1 cruisers apart from a select few that have fitting issues. What needs to be done is nerfing some tier 2 BCs and some of the faction/pirate ships. Removing the tiers does make sense and I'd really like that tbh. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. |
Alara IonStorm
680
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Posted - 2011.12.23 05:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Stuff. For the sake of all that is holy Alara IonStorm, please read this! There are more important concerns to deal with then what they're website thinks of me.
Please feel free to deposit all complaints about my grammar in the trash bin over their.
It will help the thread stay focused.
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Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.12.23 12:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
From a Gallente point of view, While fixing tiers would be great the Vexor would become a beast with more grid, hp and slot. |
Nidokai
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.12.23 13:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
The root of the problem really seems to be the tier system in ship balance, these days. Like you, I really just lurk and come and go from this time over the course of several years now, and it's always baffled me why CCP would make a system in which certain ships (most notably in the frigate and cruiser line-ups) several ships are always worse than others, in every way, even if they're intended to fill a certain role that they arbitrarily can't.
Cruisers of all races definitely need to be balanced with each other; as should frigates, and the battlecruisers. |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
48
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Posted - 2011.12.23 13:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
There are Gallente and Minmatar cruisers and then Amarr and Caldari. The former are clearly a bit better than the latter. Even when T1 cruisers as a whole are buffed, the Amarr/Caldari ones are going to need some extra attention.
Also, I think Battlecruisers should be nerfed a little. They are the ones marginalizing HACs and obsoleting T1 cruisers. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2011.12.23 13:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anything you can pick faults with for the T1 cruiser line up also applies to the T1 frigate lineup.
The only way now is to either condense the tier system into just two levels (to keep some price distinctions and progression), or to do away with it completely and go for a role based line up.
The problem with doing away with the tier system and balancing the boats out lies with material costs. Previously CCP have been pretty adamant about keeping the prices of the tier system so that newbies into the game have some sort of progression on the isk side and if you balance it all out for roles, you're going to end up with all the cruisers costing about 6 million isk.
FWIW I'm in favour of doing away with tiers completely and having a sense of "progression" simply be between the classes, not tiers.
(Tier 2 BC's need to be looked at tbh, I think they're a bit too flexible) |
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V'oba
Cosmodynamics
1
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Posted - 2011.12.23 23:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
I agree that changing the tier system (for both frigates and cruisers) is probably the best way to go about this. But Alara makes a good point about making each ship more specialized.
I think having each ship fill a more defined role would allow a more fluid progression from T1 frigate --> T1 cruiser --> HAC/ Recon/ Logistics --> carrier/dread.
For example, a new player that's unfamiliar with eve could start out saying 'i want to be a healer', look at the ships and see a clear line all the way from frigates to capitals in logistics ships.
Taking a hypothetical modification of each race's mining frigate to include some kind of remote repping bonus as a given, the progression would look like this: Bantam --> Osprey --> Basilisk --> Chimera.
Of course this isn't perfect, as the skill requirements for each of these ships are all pretty big jumps, but it gives a general idea. The same kind of progression would be there for ewar, brawlers, and tackling ships. |
Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
18
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Posted - 2011.12.23 23:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
I got as far as "BC is better" and stopped reading.
0/10 |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
70
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Posted - 2011.12.24 05:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tiericide thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=467771#post467771
Cruisers don't need buffed above the level of current tier3- although they should all be brought up to this level to allow more roles and fits. A few do need tweaked though, like giving the maller some drones for example. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
177
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Posted - 2011.12.24 06:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
You're obviously a native speaker. Respect your audience by proofreading your posts.
If you can't be bothered to compose your post legibly legibly, I'm not going to bother to read it.
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
708
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Also, I think tier 2 Battlecruisers should be nerfed a little. They are the ones marginalizing HACs and obsoleting T1 cruisers. They're too good all-around. A speed reduction would be good to leave more room for cruisers and HACs to fill speedy roles.
I fully agree - Tier 2 BCs are a plague - I seriously doubt speed reduction would suffice. Probably reducing their highslots and switching them to use large turrets as well so they have to deal with worse tracking and sig resolution would do the trick. Overall dps should be a tad lower than they are now and they'd need a 50% range/falloff nerf. I actually proposed that about a year back.
However, T1 Cruisers still wont get better because of that although I don't have a problem with that - they're disposable low-cost, low SP ships. As for them being outclassed by AFs: That's exactly how it should be.
I agree on them needing some balance against each other - especially the Maller and Omen vs the rest (I kinda gave up on the logi T1s).
morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Luba Cibre
2
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:The Maller is terrible compared to the other tier 3 cruisers, The Maller is ******* baller. 36k ehp, long point, 260 deeps, 460m/s, low sig radius and a remote armor rep on top. I really don't know, why you consider the maller as terrible. |
Alara IonStorm
705
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Luba Cibre wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:The Maller is terrible compared to the other tier 3 cruisers, The Maller is ******* baller. 36k ehp, long point, 260 deeps, 460m/s, low sig radius and a remote armor rep on top.I really don't know, why you consider the maller as terrible. That is why.
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A'Brantox Foson
Spiritus Draconis
4
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Spend 30+5mil fitting a cruiser or spend 35+25mil for battlecruiser. That's all, 30milmore and you have yourself far stonger hull, then the extra guns/launchers they need. To get similar performances from cruisers, you'd need to fit faction, deadspace and officer mods... fork that.
Maybe give high tier cruisers more bonuses. Perhaps +5% damage / level with the moa, +5% shield resistance for caracal, +5% agility for thorax etc. So they aren't so ****!. :) |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
95
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
A'Brantox Foson wrote:
Maybe give high tier cruisers more bonuses. Perhaps +5% damage / level with the moa, +5% shield resistance for caracal, +5% agility for thorax etc. So they aren't so ****!. :)
O___o
Someone revoke this mans forum access. |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
48
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Luba Cibre wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:The Maller is terrible compared to the other tier 3 cruisers, The Maller is ******* baller. 36k ehp, long point, 260 deeps, 460m/s, low sig radius and a remote armor rep on top. I really don't know, why you consider the maller as terrible.
Because it's junk with its frigate-like dps no matter how you turn it.
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
70
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:For the sake of all that is holy Alara IonStorm, please read this!
Alara Ionstorm wrote:There are more important concerns to deal with then what they're website thinks of me.
Oh. My *******. God:
Pathological self-absorption, much? Look at the link again and tell us what in every Hell that ever existed that website could possibly have to do directly with you, and why they should even be aware of your special-little-snowflake existence, let alone think anything of you, one way or the other?
It must take a certain kind of special to think that something that tangential to you revolves around you in any way, shape, or form...
Grow up, princess.
Alara Ionstorm wrote:Please feel free to deposit all complaints about my grammar in the trash bin over their.
It will help the thread stay focused.
It will help your credibility if your posts don't look like they were written by a barely literate 14 year old on her phone, as well.
(It's "toe their line," by the way...) I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
70
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Posted - 2011.12.24 13:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Also, I think tier 2 Battlecruisers should be nerfed a little. They are the ones marginalizing HACs and obsoleting T1 cruisers. They're too good all-around. A speed reduction would be good to leave more room for cruisers and HACs to fill speedy roles.
No, they shouldn't.
The Tier2 BCs are exactly as they should be given their ratio of cost : performance : overall versatility. The Tier1s (possible exception of Brutix and Cyclone) need a little love.
That the other classes are simply bad is no reason to make a good class worse. The bad classes simply need to be brought up to standard, and if individual examples can't be, then those should be eliminated. But then, this requires actual forethought and work, instead of mindlessly swinging the nerf-bat.
Even a dual nano-Hurricane with PolyCarb rigs isn't that fast ( ca. 2.0km/s IIRC, and this gimps it a lot in other areas).
WTB: Nano/HM Drake that can do 2.5+ km/s un-heated and without implants (IE, a Vagabond with actual tank and damage-projection, that's much easier/more forgiving to fly, not to mention 1/3rd the cost)...That, indeed, would be hopelessly over-powered. Fortunately it isn't, nor are any of the others.
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Alara IonStorm
705
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Posted - 2011.12.24 13:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:special-little-snowflake existence, Your not the first to be jealous of my snowy hair.
Lyrrashae wrote: princess
Sums it up, you may bow at my feet surf.
Lyrrashae wrote: It will help your credibility if your posts don't look like they were written by a barely literate 14 year old on her phone, as well.
My Valley Girl image is well crafted.
Instead of training spelling and grammar to V, I maxed out my Hate Shield Composition.
You little lady can't even get past the recharge let alone my Gist X Self Esteem Booster.
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Death Toll007
Fleet of Doom Ushra'Khan
9
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Posted - 2011.12.24 13:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
I love how players' first reaction is to nerf what they dislike, rather than find a way to pwn it.
Rupture ( large shield extender, point, MWD, ECM drones) will pwn drake/cane properly fitted. It will have a harder time with the drake.
Moa(Large shield extender, invuln, web scram, small blaster), will pwn a cane, drake will pwn it.
Omen Active AB, will pwn a cane/ drake if properly fit. (EM!!!)
Thorax... well may have issues here, slow tank = fail tank for cruisers.
More importantly, they will PWN BS's.
Now raw damage frontal assault... yes, they will die, that's where orbits, getting in under guns, manipulating your transversal, ECM drones, EWAR, and reducing sig radius come into play.
Skill... it's the great equalizer, those without play with nerf so as not to get hurt... odd how they are also the first to scream for it.
-DT |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cruisers are fine. Battle-cruisers are just better. Deal with it. However, I'd like CCP to make the Omen, Maller, Moa, and Caracal alot more viable.
@ the moment. Only The Rupture, Bellicose, Arbitrator, Thorax, Vexor, Celestis and Blackbird seem to be the most viable. Hmm!? That is alot of viable cruisers when I look @ it, to be honest. Still CCP should boost the aforementioned cruisers. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
70
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
[quote=Alara IonStorm Sums it up, you may bow at my feet surf.
Instead of training spelling and grammar to V, I maxed out my Hate Shield Composition.
You little lady can't even get past the recharge let alone my Gist X Self Esteem Booster. [/quote]
"Serf," not surf. Alberta is land-locked, so no surfing for me, unfortunately...
That's narcissism, not healthy self-esteem, by the way.
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Alara IonStorm
708
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote: That's narcissism, not healthy self-esteem, by the way.
Huh I am sorry I wasn't listening. I caught my reflection in your Sunglasses.
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V'oba
Cosmodynamics
1
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Death Toll007 wrote:I love how players' first reaction is to nerf what they dislike, rather than find a way to pwn it.
Rupture ( large shield extender, point, MWD, ECM drones) will pwn drake/cane properly fitted. It will have a harder time with the drake.
Moa(Large shield extender, invuln, web scram, small blaster), will pwn a cane, drake will pwn it.
Omen Active AB, will pwn a cane/ drake if properly fit. (EM!!!)
Thorax... well may have issues here, slow tank = fail tank for cruisers.
More importantly, they will PWN BS's.
Now raw damage frontal assault... yes, they will die, that's where orbits, getting in under guns, manipulating your transversal, ECM drones, EWAR, and reducing sig radius come into play.
Skill... it's the great equalizer, those without play with nerf so as not to get hurt... odd how they are also the first to scream for it.
-DT
A single med. neut on a BC cancels out all of these setups (not to mention the heavy neuts on battleships). Any drake regardless of neuts would also just laugh at all of these. None of them would have even close to the agility needed to "out-fly" a similarly skilled BC.
IIRC I haven't called for any nerfs. As a class, T1 cruisers need to first be equalized across the tiers, and then I think the best way to make them worth using would be to make them more survivable (agility/ speed/ sig) in relation to BC. Not necessarily against BC specifically, but just in their overall balance they should be a more legitimate threat and have more gtfo ability. |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
-Battlecruisers can't get into FW medium plexes.
---Maller is good at breaking up warp in camps with another heavy tanekd cruiser.
---Maller warp in camp = best warp in camp. Tank like a boss and hold point web forever.
---Maller is good to find weak points of fleet. Noobs will point it and attack, even if it is obvious bait.
-Can sometimes set up for DPS because it's always 'heavy tank'
-I pretty sure you can get this thing to over 100K EHP with legion boosts. I THINK. (I looked at EHP while in system with a Legion booster. Thought I saw JUST over 100k EHP. Could have been I was just seeing double though.) |
Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
13
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Posted - 2011.12.24 16:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
I recently proposed a fix for the Maller and Prophecy.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=41219
Not all tech 1 cruisers are in trouble there are many viable ships in the line ups (Thorax, Vexor, Rupture, Stabber, Arbitrator, Caracal). These ships do well and fit roles well but there are many more useless tech 1 ships out there. Omen is in desperate need of more grid for example. Many of the fixes would be easy fixes of slight buffs but a few ships in the line up need to get major overhauls (Maller for example). |
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