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Cade Windstalker
608
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Posted - 2016.11.18 19:20:01 -
[31] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Nothing to discuss. The database code says "no".
Now, here's the weather.
Edit: My reply reads a bit snarky, and that wasn't my intent. I'd be all for your suggestion, but apparently it can't happen.
It can't happen with stacking the items in the same way you stack packaged modules, but you could take 2 10 run BPCs and combine them into a single 20 run BPC, since you're creating a new third item and removing the other two.
I actually like this solution. It fixes a common complaint with BPCs, gets around the known technical issues, and potentially lets someone obsessive try to get a massive run count on a single BPC. |
PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
219
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Posted - 2016.11.18 21:14:08 -
[32] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:PopeUrban wrote:You really are dense aren't you. I have chosen in the past not to go down this path, but this comment has changed my mind. If you are going to resort to name calling because someone disagrees with you then you get my real ideas and thoughts. What the hell if I am going to be called names might as well give you a real reason to do it. You and you alone are the problem here not the game or any part of it. Since you have hangers full of cans that are in turn full of BPC's waiting for the next step in the process it is obvious that your ability to produce these BPC's outpaces your ability to use them. So the simple solution here is to switch to the on demand sourcing model instead of the build or invent it as fast as you can and stock pile it model. On demand sourcing simply means that at each step you only produce what you will need for the next step in the process. Once you have this on demand sourcing figured out and the amount to produce at each step determined and your stock piles used up you will find it will make a huge difference in the amount of stuff you have to store. But game and not real world many will say and In this specific case I reject that as irrelevant. On demand sourcing can and will work here in EvE the indy corp I have a character in uses it all the time. There you now have a challenge that will make EvE more interesting, you will eliminate as much of your storage problems as possible AND you will not occupy any developer time to do it. Win Win as they say.
Sure. You've been civil about this the whole time. Cling to that notion.
For the third or fourth time you're completely ignoring the opinions, input, and calm explanation of the entire situation by people much more familiar with the topic and subject matter than yourself, making false claims and assumptions, and basically saying "it's impossible" rather than "I don't like it"
Your suggestions have amounted to "well if you played the game worse you wouldn't have a problem associated with playing it successfully"
I could make another long post attempting to explain to you why the concept of "on demand sourcing" is not always an applicable one, especially in the case of invention, but in stead I'll just list off some reasons in one liners so I don't have to waste more time explaining principles to you everyone else seems to understand just fine.
A: You may lose your research, but not your production capacity as a result of structure warfare (you overproduce as insurance against losing your research facility)
B: Invention is randomly successful, and thus you intentionally overproduce to ensure you can keep production running 24/7 without any gaps due to invention failures.
C: You overproduce because you aren't doing any other research anyway to sell the bpcs (empty lines are a waste of structure fuel)
D: You produce large stacks of multiple things because you are part of a large production chain. These blueprints are moved to multiple facilities for production once a month.
E: More reasons that don't fit in to your myopic view of how people should conduct industrial activity that I'm sure I haven't even considered. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2661
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Posted - 2016.11.18 21:25:34 -
[33] - Quote
PopeUrban wrote:
A: You may lose your research, but not your production capacity as a result of structure warfare (you overproduce as insurance against losing your research facility)
B: Invention is randomly successful, and thus you intentionally overproduce to ensure you can keep production running 24/7 without any gaps due to invention failures.
C: You overproduce because you aren't doing any other research anyway to sell the bpcs (empty lines are a waste of structure fuel)
D: You produce large stacks of multiple things because you are part of a large production chain. These blueprints are moved to multiple facilities for production once a month.
E: More reasons that don't fit in to your myopic view of how people should conduct industrial activity that I'm sure I haven't even considered.
And, nevermind the sheer agility afforded by having BPCs on hand. Temporary supply shortage of a particular good offering fat margins? If you have the BPCs on hand, you can take advantage of that. If you have to take the time to invent them, producers that had the BPCs on hand will have likely (over)corrected the situation long before you can get them invented and built.
Corp or alliance needs doctrine fittings for an op this weekend? Already have the BPCs: Piece of cake. Don't have them already? Too bad.
I'm not giving up that functionality as a workaround for inherently bad inventory management and a laggy industrial window. The suggestion is patently insipid.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Jonathon Silence
Celestial Horizon Corp. Badfellas Inc.
7
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Posted - 2016.11.20 23:25:13 -
[34] - Quote
Mordachai wrote:Could we get some input from CCP about if this is at all possible concerning the database.
All i want is QOL changes regarding the lag due to insane amount of bpc's and all the damn can's.
It's possible, the question is whether or not CCP want to implement the functionality.
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Mordachai
SevLite Enterprises Inc.
6
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Posted - 2016.11.21 13:05:38 -
[35] - Quote
Jonathon Silence wrote:Mordachai wrote:Could we get some input from CCP about if this is at all possible concerning the database.
All i want is QOL changes regarding the lag due to insane amount of bpc's and all the damn can's. It's possible, the question is whether or not CCP want to implement the functionality.
Well so many people have said that the programing side of it is hard/not possible unless a major rewrite of the code. but id like some comment from a CCP employee regarding this issue.
After ascension patch the lag during these massive amount of bpc's has become much worse and ocassionally lock up compeltely and ive found out logging out and back in fixes it for me. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1067
|
Posted - 2016.11.21 14:30:43 -
[36] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Man, you're just about utterly incapable of not sharing your thoughts on subjects with which you have no actual familiarity, huh? How do you know that I have no familiarity with the subject of this topic. Is it because we disagree? Perhaps it is because I think you are lazy and you want CCP to solve your problems for you, instead of taking the time and effort to learn about and then adapt and apply a real world process that can help you.
On demand sourcing is a thing in the world of business, it is a thing because it solves in the real world many of the same problems you need to solve here in EvE you know things like storage, inventory tracking, location of the things you need, making sure you have what you need, where you need it and when you need it. One does not need much in the way of experience with the invention process to understand the basic issues you face, all one needs is a little reading about the process and a little reading of your posts to get a basic understanding of the problem and then the ability to look for solutions somewhere other than CCP and the dev teams.
To recap where we are at. What you want is not possible in the game as we know it today. What you want is not likely to be available in the game anytime soon (meaning the next 12 to 18 months). What you want may NEVER be available in the game because reasons known only to CCP.
So while we wait for CCP to decide when / if they will make this change you are still faced with the same situation that caused you to post this topic to start with. In that regard a smart player would be looking for ideas and suggestions that may help minimize or eliminate the problems they are facing. A smart player would not care where that idea came from. A smart player would not care how much or how little experience the person posting the idea has. A smart player would look into any and all ideas offered and asses if they could help them instead of questioning the experience level of the person that posted it. So I guess the real question is simply this, are you a smart player, are you willing to invest a little effort by looking into and experimenting with an idea offered. Or are you a typical lazy EvE player that wants CCP to solve your problems for you.
In the end since you cannot do the things you want to do you can continue down the same path of frustrations you are currently on, or you can expend a little effort to look into an idea offered. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1067
|
Posted - 2016.11.21 15:57:24 -
[37] - Quote
PopeUrban wrote:For the third or fourth time you're completely ignoring the opinions, input, and calm explanation of the entire situation by people much more familiar with the topic and subject matter than yourself, making false claims and assumptions, and basically saying "it's impossible" rather than "I don't like it" One does not need even a basic understanding of the process to realize simple facts gleaned from your original post, all one needs to do is read.
PopeUrban wrote:Situation:
Your industrial element does a lot of invention. You do multiple day crafting runs of t1s and other materials before using the t2 BPCs to craft your final T2 products. Because your research outpaces your input/output stream of physical goods (because you want to overproduce invention BPCs to safeguard against RNG failure ******* with your assembly line) you end up with a hangar full of identical 10 run BPCs that don't stack, can't be locked down, and take up pages and pages and pages. From this paragraph we know that your ability to produce the materials needed for your final T2 production out paces your need for those materials.
We know that your overproduction of these materials is causing you some significant problems with inventory and storage.
We know that due to some problems inherent in the process and the simple fact that this is a computer game you need to have a certain level of excess materials in storage to minimize or even possibly eliminate final production delays.
We also know from this that currently it is impossible to stack or to combine BPC's.
There we have a solid understanding of the basic problems you want CCP to solve and we have done nothing but read you own words. My answer from this is the same as it was in my last posts. Properly applied to your specific needs and your specific situation on demand sourcing can and will eliminate a lot of your inventory and storage hassles so why the reluctance to even try it.
PopeUrban wrote:Your suggestions have amounted to "well if you played the game worse you wouldn't have a problem associated with playing it successfully" This one is interesting and puzzling at the same time. On the face it seems logical that streamlining your production process to eliminate as much of your inventory and storage hassles as possible would be considered as being better, smarted and more efficient at the game. Yet now you tell me that doing these things makes you "worse" at the game. I think I need to wander off into the mists of EvE and contemplate this revelation while taking some form of mind altering substance.
PopeUrban wrote:I could make another long post attempting to explain to you why the concept of "on demand sourcing" is not always an applicable one, especially in the case of invention, but in stead I'll just list off some reasons in one liners so I don't have to waste more time explaining principles to you everyone else seems to understand just fine.
A: You may lose your research, but not your production capacity as a result of structure warfare (you overproduce as insurance against losing your research facility)
B: Invention is randomly successful, and thus you intentionally overproduce to ensure you can keep production running 24/7 without any gaps due to invention failures.
C: You overproduce because you aren't doing any other research anyway to sell the bpcs (empty lines are a waste of structure fuel)
D: You produce large stacks of multiple things because you are part of a large production chain. These blueprints are moved to multiple facilities for production once a month.
E: More reasons that don't fit in to your myopic view of how people should conduct industrial activity that I'm sure I haven't even considered. You state at the beginning of this section that on demand sourcing is not always a good idea, and then you go on to this list of why it is not valid in your situation. The funny thing here is I do not see these as a reason why on demand sourcing WILL NOT work, what I see is a series of things that must be considered when setting up your on demand sourcing system. Yes at the most basic level on demand produces exactly what you need for the next step in the process, and yes I am aware that I stated that, but then I also stated that it needed to be adapted to your specific situation. I had given you and others credit for having enough intelligence to look at a basic process and then adapt it to meet your needs, I can see now that I was wrong.
A. Here is a really crazy thought, so crazy that you probably never even considered it. How about moving that BPO' research to an NPC station in low sec that CANNOT be destroyed. Surely this would be an easy thing for a group of nul sec industrialists like you to handle.
B. So you need to account for average loses and the time delays the could cause when setting up your on demand system. This is all part of the adapting the basic concept to your specific needs.
C. This is a decision made by you or another person, and as such it is not a problem with the game. No one forces you to add to your storage problems with this over production and I am sure that there are other things your corp / alliance needs that could be produced in those time slots instead.
E. And all of them can and should be considered when setting up an on demand system. Like so many in EvE you simply dismiss something because you either do not understand it or you do not want to take the time to work it all out you simply want CCP to solve your problems for you.
One has to wonder, have you ever considered that CCP just might have put all these twists into the processes involved specifically as a way of limiting what you can produce? Or amybe they put them into the system as a way of making it more vulnerable to attack by other players. |
PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
226
|
Posted - 2016.11.21 22:08:26 -
[38] - Quote
Again, a really long post that can be summed up as "Play the game worse and you will not have interface annoyances associated with playing it well"
I suppose your answer to AOE doomsday balance back in that era would have been "well then go fly a super"? |
Jonathon Silence
Celestial Horizon Corp. Badfellas Inc.
8
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Posted - 2016.11.21 23:07:32 -
[39] - Quote
Mordachai wrote:Jonathon Silence wrote:Mordachai wrote:Could we get some input from CCP about if this is at all possible concerning the database.
All i want is QOL changes regarding the lag due to insane amount of bpc's and all the damn can's. It's possible, the question is whether or not CCP want to implement the functionality. Well so many people have said that the programing side of it is hard/not possible unless a major rewrite of the code. but id like some comment from a CCP employee regarding this issue. After ascension patch the lag during these massive amount of bpc's has become much worse and ocassionally lock up compeltely and ive found out logging out and back in fixes it for me.
Considering that I am an ex-CCP employee and have worked with this section of code. Admittedly it was some time ago and it could have changed significantly, but the database structure has not so as I said.
Possible, question is if CCP want to do it.
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
227
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Posted - 2016.11.21 23:15:10 -
[40] - Quote
Jonathon Silence wrote:Mordachai wrote:Jonathon Silence wrote:Mordachai wrote:Could we get some input from CCP about if this is at all possible concerning the database.
All i want is QOL changes regarding the lag due to insane amount of bpc's and all the damn can's. It's possible, the question is whether or not CCP want to implement the functionality. Well so many people have said that the programing side of it is hard/not possible unless a major rewrite of the code. but id like some comment from a CCP employee regarding this issue. After ascension patch the lag during these massive amount of bpc's has become much worse and ocassionally lock up compeltely and ive found out logging out and back in fixes it for me. Considering that I am an ex-CCP employee and have worked with this section of code. Admittedly it was some time ago and it could have changed significantly, but the database structure has not so as I said. Possible, question is if CCP want to do it.
Yeah, I think its worth repeating what people have said about the minor effects bpc combination would have on the actual ME/TE discounts for items where those numbers do not currently do anything due to math, or the effect it would have on the ability to more passively do longer production runs on BPCs and what that means for the economy.
Every suggestion in the end boils down to whether or not CCP thinks its a good idea though but it seems thusfar that at least the general opinion in the thread is that people would appreciate some way to clean up the BPC clutter a little, though there are differing opinions on how significantly that ability affects production gameplay and thus the appropriate costs or lack thereof to use it.
They're interesting questions that I feel someone at CCP has better metrics based data available to answer. |
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2697
|
Posted - 2016.11.22 05:14:13 -
[41] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote: How do you know that I have no familiarity with the subject of this topic.
Because you spent the rest of your post skirting around the validity of JIT in the real world (even though the merits, there, are largely inapplicable to this situation) and doing your level best merely to cast doubt on the assertion that you don't know what you're talking about, without ever actually saying anything that gives even the vaguest suggestion that your level of experience with the subject matter as it pertains to Eve extends beyond the shallowest depths of dilettantism.
When you're actually familiar with a subject, it's not hard to spot a poser.
Way back on page one you asked the laughable question, "If the clutter of BPC is such a problem for you why do you create them with only 10 runs, why not 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 instead?"
Which is not a question anyone familiar with invention would ever ask.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Mordachai
SevLite Enterprises Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2016.11.22 09:16:51 -
[42] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Donnachadh wrote: How do you know that I have no familiarity with the subject of this topic.
Because you spent the rest of your post skirting around the validity of JIT in the real world (even though the merits, there, are largely inapplicable to this situation) and doing your level best merely to cast doubt on the assertion that you don't know what you're talking about, without ever actually saying anything that gives even the vaguest suggestion that your level of experience with the subject matter as it pertains to Eve extends beyond the shallowest depths of dilettantism. When you're actually familiar with a subject, it's not hard to spot a poser. Way back on page one you asked the laughable question, "If the clutter of BPC is such a problem for you why do you create them with only 10 runs, why not 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 instead?" Which is not a question anyone familiar with invention would ever ask.
Once a blueprint goes over 100 runs anything above that doesnt give any advantage considering ME level due to math (hence i do all production runs able in 100 run+), the amount of runs would be limited by the 30 day job rule.
Like someone mention an isk sink for combining or stacking or what ever for bpc's i dont care i just want the clutter FIXED. With the 10's of thousand bpc's in my hangars on various characters lags my client quite frequently and it is really annoying.
If only the bpc's could be stackable like unused bpo's and then they would be consumed just like they are now id be happy (no me/te/production queue bonus) just want the 100's of cans that i have to look through gone for easier clutter free play style.
CCP do something... reply from a (current) dev or something please. |
Jonathon Silence
Celestial Horizon Corp. Badfellas Inc.
9
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Posted - 2016.11.25 03:55:17 -
[43] - Quote
Yes please CCP.
Can we get someone to look into this and give us an answer.
If not CCP could we get a CSM member to take this up with them? |
Mordachai
SevLite Enterprises Inc.
6
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Posted - 2016.12.02 12:46:20 -
[44] - Quote
i guess ccp dont care... =( reply wouldnt be that hard just to confirm if possible or not or if its too much work or something. |
Jonathon Silence
Celestial Horizon Corp. Badfellas Inc.
10
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Posted - 2016.12.05 06:05:29 -
[45] - Quote
Created a thread in the CSM Assembly hall trying to get attention to the proposal.
If people want to go over and give it some 'Likes'.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=502826&find=unread
Cheers. |
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