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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.02 15:06:00 -
[1]
As we all know, fitting a phoenix is a pain in the ass. Tnx to its incredibly small cpu. I have done some math and here are some reasons why its cpu should be increased.
Phoenix cpu 1031.25 Revelation cpu 812.5 Moros cpu 937.5
After fitting a basic 3 siege launcher, siege module, capital shield booster, t2 shield booster amp you have used 792.5 cpu. Thats total 76.84% of phoenix's cpu.
For comparison a revelation with 2x capital rep, 3 dual giga beams, siege module takes 475 cpu and thats only 58.46% of ships total cpu. If you fit close range weapons then it takes even less cpu.
Moros with long range weapons uses only 55.46% of its cpu.
Before you all start screaming about powergrid let me remind you that none of capital ships has any problems with that.
Let me remind you that theres no way phoenix can sustain its shield booster forever, so plz dont start screaming about "imba" tank also. T2 shield modules, T2 BCS all take more cpu to fit than armor/turret mods.
To fix Phoenix it needs around 100 more cpu.
Tnx for reading.
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putukas
Amarr Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.02 15:14:00 -
[2]
totally agree
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Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.02 16:10:00 -
[3]
I think the Phoenix's CPU is fine... however it's the CPU requirement of the Capital Shield Booster that really, really needs to be looked at. Maybe Citadel Launchers could use a little reduction, too, but I don't know. Capital Shield Boosters seem to be the big issue. If I remember right the Chimera has comparable issues with fitting -- again, due to the capital shield booster. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
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Chronus26
Gallente Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.04.02 16:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Chronus26 on 02/04/2007 16:10:31 Have to agree, although im not a Phoenix pilot, ive spent alot of time going over setups and statistics for others (i'm a Capital Ship nut tbh) and I find myself having to resort to faction mods to get my ideal kinda fitting on. Compared to my own race (Gallente) where I have never had any fitting trouble on cap-ships at all (Thanatos can easily fit 5 reps if one so desired) it's just silly.
Same goes for the Chimera too.
Originally by: Ortu Konsinni I think the Phoenix's CPU is fine... however it's the CPU requirement of the Capital Shield Booster that really, really needs to be looked at. Maybe Citadel Launchers could use a little reduction, too, but I don't know. Capital Shield Boosters seem to be the big issue. If I remember right the Chimera has comparable issues with fitting -- again, due to the capital shield booster.
Ya, thats probably the best solution right there. -----
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.02 17:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ortu Konsinni I think the Phoenix's CPU is fine... however it's the CPU requirement of the Capital Shield Booster that really, really needs to be looked at. Maybe Citadel Launchers could use a little reduction, too, but I don't know. Capital Shield Boosters seem to be the big issue. If I remember right the Chimera has comparable issues with fitting -- again, due to the capital shield booster.
thats 1 possible solution.
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.03 11:36:00 -
[6]
so noone else thinks its a problem? Everyone should just train for gallente capital ships?
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.04.03 11:55:00 -
[7]
Personally I feel that cap ships are far too easy to fit; one doesn't really have to make any choices. Then again, I fly only Gallente ones.
For sake of accuracy, care to give some examples of full fittings where Phoenix runs out of CPU? Preferably ones which some other capital(s) can easily equal. Used percents of available CPU doesn't tell much.
I kind of prefer situation where one has to make choices, instead of just fitting everything he might need. So another option (instead of reducing shield booster CPU) would be reducing Gallente/Amarr powergrids..
-Lasse
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.03 12:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Heikki Personally I feel that cap ships are far too easy to fit; one doesn't really have to make any choices. Then again, I fly only Gallente ones.
For sake of accuracy, care to give some examples of full fittings where Phoenix runs out of CPU? Preferably ones which some other capital(s) can easily equal. Used percents of available CPU doesn't tell much.
I kind of prefer situation where one has to make choices, instead of just fitting everything he might need. So another option (instead of reducing shield booster CPU) would be reducing Gallente/Amarr powergrids..
-Lasse
ok, here are some numbers: 3 capital launchers (337.5 cpu), 1 siege mod (100) = 437.5 cpu capital booster (300), t2 boost amp (55), 2x inv II (88), EM II (44), thermal II (44), cap II (11,25) = 542,25 cpu 3 PDS II (45), 1 BCS II (40), 1 dcont II (30) = 115 cpu
total 1094.75 out of 1031.25 available
Theres still no way you can run shield booster forever, it doesnt have insane damage. For higher damage you would have to kill allmost all of your tank. BCS II 40 cpu > pds II 15 cpu.
(all calculations are done with max skills)
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Cannizza Junior
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher As we all know, fitting a phoenix is a pain in the ass. Tnx to its incredibly small cpu. I have done some math and here are some reasons why its cpu should be increased.
Phoenix cpu 1031.25 Revelation cpu 812.5 Moros cpu 937.5
After fitting a basic 3 siege launcher, siege module, capital shield booster, t2 shield booster amp you have used 792.5 cpu. Thats total 76.84% of phoenix's cpu.
For comparison a revelation with 2x capital rep, 3 dual giga beams, siege module takes 475 cpu and thats only 58.46% of ships total cpu. If you fit close range weapons then it takes even less cpu.
Moros with long range weapons uses only 55.46% of its cpu.
Before you all start screaming about powergrid let me remind you that none of capital ships has any problems with that.
Let me remind you that theres no way phoenix can sustain its shield booster forever, so plz dont start screaming about "imba" tank also. T2 shield modules, T2 BCS all take more cpu to fit than armor/turret mods.
To fix Phoenix it needs around 100 more cpu.
Tnx for reading.
I totaly agree with that. It¦s impossible to have a good tank and use at least 1 damage module on the Phoenix. Even with Hi-end Faction gear is dificult.
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.05 08:13:00 -
[10]
i wont let this thread die!
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.04.05 08:24:00 -
[11]
I'd armor tank it
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Raekone I'd armor tank it
then your not so smart either. 2 capital rep, dcont II, adaptive nano II, bcs II isnt much of a tank.
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: Raekone I'd armor tank it
then your not so smart either. 2 capital rep, dcont II, adaptive nano II, bcs II isnt much of a tank.
So it's smarter to struggle with a halfwit shield setup just because it's a caldari ship? I'd say 2 armor reps, one hardener, two adaptives and NO BCS would make a very nice tank. You can fill your meds with cap II's to make your tank easily sustainable and also have a sensor booster or two.
Problem with you people is you see five low slots and panic. If that's all it takes to dissuade you from using an armor tank then, well, lol
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Kokoshu
Caldari The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:26:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kokoshu on 05/04/2007 11:22:53 So a ship which has a description of "having the most technilogically advanced shield system in existance" has to armour tank to be effective. Thats just plain silly.
Its the only dred which has fitting problems, some dreads can dual capital rep permanantly . Phoenix cant even have one on all the time. I wont start to derail the thread and talk about the Chimeria fitting problems either.
Also if we do make it so the ship can permanantly run a shield booster you have to have CPR in the lows negating the boost amplifier and also not having any damage mods.
Just imagine a moros shield tanking with no damage boost mods how annoyed would them pilots be.
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kokoshu So a ship which has a description of "having the most technilogically advanced shield system in existance" has to armour tank to be effective. Thats just plain silly.
No I'd say what is silly is that you're trying to have a shield tank on a ship that's badly suited for it just because some made up storyline description says you should. As long as you don't actually get any shield amount/rep bonus/boni/bonuses/boniiiii you have no reason to shield tank over armor tank.
Originally by: Kokoshu Phoenix cant even have one on all the time.
One what on all the time? Shield booster or armor rep? You can't mean armor reps surely, and shield boosters can almost NEVER be on permanently unless you have uber rare faction stuff, which do not exist in capital sizes anyway afaik.
Originally by: Kokoshu Just imagine a moros shield tanking with no damage boost mods how annoyed would them pilots be.
Yeah they'd be royally ****ed. Good job they have enough lows for it then =)
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babylonstew
Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2007.04.05 12:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Raekone
Originally by: Kokoshu So a ship which has a description of "having the most technilogically advanced shield system in existance" has to armour tank to be effective. Thats just plain silly.
No I'd say what is silly is that you're trying to have a shield tank on a ship that's badly suited for it just because some made up storyline description says you should. As long as you don't actually get any shield amount/rep bonus/boni/bonuses/boniiiii you have no reason to shield tank over armor tank.
Originally by: Kokoshu Phoenix cant even have one on all the time.
One what on all the time? Shield booster or armor rep? You can't mean armor reps surely, and shield boosters can almost NEVER be on permanently unless you have uber rare faction stuff, which do not exist in capital sizes anyway afaik.
Originally by: Kokoshu Just imagine a moros shield tanking with no damage boost mods how annoyed would them pilots be.
Yeah they'd be royally ****ed. Good job they have enough lows for it then =)
so your 'solution' to caldari cap ships cou issuesa is...., throw all your shield tanking skills out the window and go train all your armour tanking skills up to max and then fit an average armour tank on it and no damage mods what so ever , forgive me, but thats like telling all gal pilots to go trian projectiles becos they take less grid and no cap
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TheHumanity
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Posted - 2007.04.05 12:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Raekone
Originally by: Kokoshu So a ship which has a description of "having the most technilogically advanced shield system in existance" has to armour tank to be effective. Thats just plain silly.
No I'd say what is silly is that you're trying to have a shield tank on a ship that's badly suited for it just because some made up storyline description says you should. As long as you don't actually get any shield amount/rep bonus/boni/bonuses/boniiiii you have no reason to shield tank over armor tank.
Originally by: Kokoshu Phoenix cant even have one on all the time.
One what on all the time? Shield booster or armor rep? You can't mean armor reps surely, and shield boosters can almost NEVER be on permanently unless you have uber rare faction stuff, which do not exist in capital sizes anyway afaik.
Originally by: Kokoshu Just imagine a moros shield tanking with no damage boost mods how annoyed would them pilots be.
Yeah they'd be royally ****ed. Good job they have enough lows for it then =)
So you're saying that Caldari pilots should train another skill-tree, just to have the worst tank of the bunch anyway?
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LeMoose
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.04.05 13:54:00 -
[18]
i first laughed at the idea of an armor tanked cald dread... but the idea of being able to fit officer webs, painters , officer scramblers and many sensor boosters is just kinda juicy
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TheHumanity
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LeMoose i first laughed at the idea of an armor tanked cald dread... but the idea of being able to fit officer webs, painters , officer scramblers and many sensor boosters is just kinda juicy
I'm sure an armor tanked phoenix makes an awesome*****fag ship, but if you want to use it for sieging POS, it is the only dread which needs either a gimp setup and/or faction mods to fit.
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.11 12:02:00 -
[20]
gimped armor tank 4tw? dont think so.
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Ubijalec
J.H.E.N.R Pure.
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Posted - 2007.04.11 13:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Raekone
Originally by: Kokoshu So a ship which has a description of "having the most technilogically advanced shield system in existance" has to armour tank to be effective. Thats just plain silly.
No I'd say what is silly is that you're trying to have a shield tank on a ship that's badly suited for it just because some made up storyline description says you should. As long as you don't actually get any shield amount/rep bonus/boni/bonuses/boniiiii you have no reason to shield tank over armor tank.
Originally by: Kokoshu Phoenix cant even have one on all the time.
One what on all the time? Shield booster or armor rep? You can't mean armor reps surely, and shield boosters can almost NEVER be on permanently unless you have uber rare faction stuff, which do not exist in capital sizes anyway afaik.
Originally by: Kokoshu Just imagine a moros shield tanking with no damage boost mods how annoyed would them pilots be.
Yeah they'd be royally ****ed. Good job they have enough lows for it then =)
The diffrence is also almost 100k of more shield then armor if you use PDU II. Armor tanking a Phoenix is not an options. I use implant for reduction of CPU on launchers, and still have problem to fit Phoenix. Need to use passive or named hardeners.
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iudex
Caldari Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.11 14:01:00 -
[22]
The Phoenix has enough drawbacks compared to the Moros, it should have at least enough cpu to fit a tech 2 tank. Or give the Moros serious powergrid fitting issues to keep this in line
---> Become a Forum Whiner today and make ISK ! <--- |
Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.12 12:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: iudex The Phoenix has enough drawbacks compared to the Moros, it should have at least enough cpu to fit a tech 2 tank. Or give the Moros serious powergrid fitting issues to keep this in line
exactly
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Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:42:00 -
[24]
Fit projectiles.
oops did I say that out loud..?
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Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 14:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: iudex The Phoenix has enough drawbacks compared to the Moros, it should have at least enough cpu to fit a tech 2 tank. Or give the Moros serious powergrid fitting issues to keep this in line
exactly
No, that's just stupid, for two main reasons: 1) There are no ways of reducing the powergrid usage of anything on a dread, whereas you can at least use modules that use less CPU on a Phoenix 2) Don't break something that works fine and is not unbalanced
Like I said in this topic and other topics, I'm fully convinced that the problem with the Phoenix is not the Phoenix itself, but capital shield boosters and how much CPU they demand. Gimping ships that are fine to bring them in line with a ship that has fitting problems NOT due to its CPU output, instead of fixing the simple issue of Capital Shield Boosters is just dumb.
I've tried fitting a Chimera for **** and giggles and seem to remember having comparable problems. I haven't tried with a Wyvern, much less a Leviathan, though. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships! |
TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ortu Konsinni
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: iudex The Phoenix has enough drawbacks compared to the Moros, it should have at least enough cpu to fit a tech 2 tank. Or give the Moros serious powergrid fitting issues to keep this in line
exactly
No, that's just stupid, for two main reasons: 1) There are no ways of reducing the powergrid usage of anything on a dread, whereas you can at least use modules that use less CPU on a Phoenix 2) Don't break something that works fine and is not unbalanced
Like I said in this topic and other topics, I'm fully convinced that the problem with the Phoenix is not the Phoenix itself, but capital shield boosters and how much CPU they demand. Gimping ships that are fine to bring them in line with a ship that has fitting problems NOT due to its CPU output, instead of fixing the simple issue of Capital Shield Boosters is just dumb.
I've tried fitting a Chimera for **** and giggles and seem to remember having comparable problems. I haven't tried with a Wyvern, much less a Leviathan, though.
1) RCU, PDS, rig!? 2) Is not unbalanced? It is about time they nerfed the drone bonus or gimped it's POS sieging ability...
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mama guru
Gallente Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:30:00 -
[27]
DONT even think about toutching my moros, its fine as it is.
The Revelations capacitor and the Phoenix's CPU could use some work. -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE-
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Originally by: Ortu Konsinni
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: iudex The Phoenix has enough drawbacks compared to the Moros, it should have at least enough cpu to fit a tech 2 tank. Or give the Moros serious powergrid fitting issues to keep this in line
exactly
No, that's just stupid, for two main reasons: 1) There are no ways of reducing the powergrid usage of anything on a dread, whereas you can at least use modules that use less CPU on a Phoenix 2) Don't break something that works fine and is not unbalanced
Like I said in this topic and other topics, I'm fully convinced that the problem with the Phoenix is not the Phoenix itself, but capital shield boosters and how much CPU they demand. Gimping ships that are fine to bring them in line with a ship that has fitting problems NOT due to its CPU output, instead of fixing the simple issue of Capital Shield Boosters is just dumb.
I've tried fitting a Chimera for **** and giggles and seem to remember having comparable problems. I haven't tried with a Wyvern, much less a Leviathan, though.
1) RCU, PDS, rig!? 2) Is not unbalanced? It is about time they nerfed the drone bonus or gimped it's POS sieging ability...
RCU and PDS would gimp a Moros's tank since they're low slot modules. Rigs are not part of the discussion and they should never have to be used. We didn't have them before and we were fine, so let's not drift off-topic. This isn't about the Moros's bonuses either, it's about the Phoenix's CPU and "ease" of fitting compared to other dreads. I stand by my statement that it's idiotic to change the fitting values of other dreads to bring them in line with the Phoenix and make them a ***** to fit requiring faction mods. It also requires a lot more thinking on CCP's part than simply DECREASING CAPITAL SHIELD BOOSTERS' CPU CONSUMPTION, which is the core of the problem and would fix the exact same problem that the Chimera has. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships! |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.12 15:43:00 -
[29]
Edited by: LUKEC on 12/04/2007 15:41:29 The whole discussion is not so much different than it was blasters+gallente. In the end(after 2 years), blasters got easier fitting. Situation with blasters was retarded (lol for fitting 3x db platings back then) and it's really same with phoenix.
Discussion about quality of tanks at this point is moot. Shield tank can be much stronger, but it really sucks in laggy environment. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
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slothe
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher so noone else thinks its a problem? Everyone should just train for gallente capital ships?
i wish people would stop the gallente pwns jibes.
it wasnt so long ago that this game was caldari online, or even when amarr ships owned (and before weapon upgrade stacking was implemented ruptures and minnie ships owned).
all ships have thei day and so what if gallente are decent now, they used to suck big time.
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