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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: James Adams
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Let me remind you that theres no way phoenix can sustain its shield booster forever, so plz dont start screaming about "imba" tank also. T2 shield modules, T2 BCS all take more cpu to fit than armor/turret mods.
This argument about "not beeing able to perma-tank a shield booster setup" is seriously starting to **** me off
The shield tanks are more cap efficient than the armor tank, so just can it already.
Capital Shield Booster: 6400 shield / 2400 cap = 2.666 shield/cap / 0.9 (cap shield op 5) = 2.96 x 1.36 (shield boost amp II) = 4.029 (If we had used an Estamel's amp it'd be 4.294)
And for a total of 870.4 shield/s with t2, 928 shield/s with Estamels
Capital Armor Repairer: 9600 armor / 2400 = 4 armor/cap
For a total of 849 armor/s
Right, that proved Shield Tanking is more cap efficient - "But the Revelations has better cap than the Phoenix".... meh
Revelation: 71718 cap/ 3117s cap recharge = 23.008 cap/s (not counting peak here, it won't change anything)
Phoenix: 60937 cap/ 2649s = 23.003 cap/s.
So there we have it... You have a more cap efficient way of tanking which also has better peak repairing - The armor has 10% more base resists, so that goes a bit of way to cancelling it out. All in all, stop #с%#с& moaning about how much cap your shield tank eats, cause all it means is that you can't go bloody AFK while fighting, but have to watch the cap every once in a while and maybe turn off the booster for a bit to let it recharge.
Caldari has something that requires "skillz" w00t
And even with a more cap effective tank it still can't prematank while a armortanking ship can. Ever considered why?
Because a pdu can't compare to a cap recharger, and a cap recharger can't compete with a cap relay. Tanking is not only about the effectivness of the boost module.
Now one could use the argument that it's alright for the tank to be worse because it has the ability to fit more damage mods. But when the cpu is so low that you can't fit said damage mods that argument doesn't hold much ground either. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
James Adams
Minmatar CCCP INC
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Posted - 2007.04.12 16:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Hoshi
And even with a more cap effective tank it still can't prematank while a armortanking ship can. Ever considered why?
Because a pdu can't compare to a cap recharger, and a cap recharger can't compete with a cap relay. Tanking is not only about the effectivness of the boost module.
Now one could use the argument that it's alright for the tank to be worse because it has the ability to fit more damage mods. But when the cpu is so low that you can't fit said damage mods that argument doesn't hold much ground either.
I don't believe I ever said you COULD perma-tank it. I believe that what I said was that it's just as effective at shield/cap, and that this would require that you look at your cap once in a while, and control the booster instead of keeping it on auto. IF the shield tanks could be perma-sustained then you'd have all the benefits that armor tanks currently have AND have higher peak recharge.
In short, works as intended - Armor tanks are click and forget, shield tanks are better if you pay a bit of attention (and the whole lag argument is, if not stupid, invalid as a game balance argument - You can't base ship balance around an issue that has nothing to do with game mechanics)
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:04:00 -
[33]
agreed
___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:21:00 -
[34]
every tryed hitting a large pos with a siege blaster?
it dosnt work very well
leave the moros alone
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: James Adams
I don't believe I ever said you COULD perma-tank it. I believe that what I said was that it's just as effective at shield/cap, and that this would require that you look at your cap once in a while, and control the booster instead of keeping it on auto. IF the shield tanks could be perma-sustained then you'd have all the benefits that armor tanks currently have AND have higher peak recharge.
In short, works as intended - Armor tanks are click and forget, shield tanks are better if you pay a bit of attention (and the whole lag argument is, if not stupid, invalid as a game balance argument - You can't base ship balance around an issue that has nothing to do with game mechanics)
What higher peak recharge? 870 vs 849? That's 2.5% better, as close to the same as you can get more or less. If it's a myth that shield tanks are more cap intensive it's the same kind of myth that they give more hp/sec.
In the end the only thing that makes them different is the fact that one is a mid slot and one is lowslot based. This gives them different strengths and weaknesses like for example the ability to get better cap recharge on the armor based tank and the ability to fit more damage mods on the shield based tank. Of course the later is made impossible due to the low cpu on the phoenix which is what this thread is all about. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
iudex
Caldari Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Hoshi
Because a pdu can't compare to a cap recharger, and a cap recharger can't compete with a cap relay. Tanking is not only about the effectivness of the boost module.
Thats a good point actually, makes the somewhat balanced armor/shield comparison turn clearly into armortank's favour (expecially for capitals as crystal imps dont apply here).
And at the guy up who suggested a estamel shield boost amplifier: i'm not going to mention that this sba costs 600+mil, but did you look at it's cpu ? There is hardly any cpu left to fit a tech 2 amp (as they are very cpu intense and cant be lowered by skills), good luck with trying to fit a estamel's/pith x-type sba - mission impossible ? Don't create numbers with things that are hardly possible to fit. Capital shield booster should be lowered to 200-250 cpu - or at least there should be a skill to decrease the cpu of it.
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ispyozs
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:26:00 -
[37]
give the Revelation more cargo room and give the phoenix more cpu. as all as you do both i'm fine with this
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:08:00 -
[38]
how about changing tactical shield manipulation useless bonus to 5% less cpu on shield boosters/hareners?
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Ryysa
North Face Force Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:16:00 -
[39]
Interesting how phoenix would fare with t2 cap fluxes :o
N.F.F. Recruitment - Killboard Mirroring tool |
Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ryysa Interesting how phoenix would fare with t2 cap fluxes :o
those things take even more cpu than pds-s.
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aeti
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:01:00 -
[41]
as somebody that flies one, i've never had problems...
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: aeti as somebody that flies one, i've never had problems...
maybe you would want to share your setup then?
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Kar Anshral
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:48:00 -
[43]
Not completely related to topic but anyway... Nidhoggur also has issues with cpu when using shield booster. Has 3rd best cpu and 3rd best grid of all carriers(spot the problem). If you're shield tanking it, you can't use capital shield transporters, if you're armor tanking, you can't use capital remote armor repairers. Don't know if that intentional or not, but it's annoying.
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.17 10:41:00 -
[44]
any dev-s reading this? Can we get an update when its going to be fixed?
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Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.04.18 03:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: mama guru DONT even think about toutching my moros, its fine as it is.
The Revelations capacitor and the Phoenix's CPU could use some work.
Don't touch your Moros?
That's the same Moros whose heavy drones can have more DPS than most gank BS setups, and is quite possibly the most absurdly imbalanced capship in EVE (well supercaps in general are screwy).
Moros should lose its drone bonuses completely. There's no excuse for the Gallente Dread to be a Domi with godmode enabled.
And please fix capital shield boosters. You can make a triple rep tank run forever easier than you can make a single cap shield booster run forever, and the triple reps pwn the single booster.
Both take the same cap to run a cycle.
Repper gives 320armor/sec Booster gives 640shield/sec
Booster used 240 cap/sec Repper uses 80.
If you fit 2 reppers to give the same DPS tank as a booster, you're still using 50% less cap.
If you fit a 3rd repper, you use just as much cap as the booster, and get 960armor/sec. Even with the best possible boost amp, you'll still be worse than the 3 reppers for tanking, and there is no 8-slot shield tanking for the Phoenix, so the 'best' shield tankers, are at a 1-slot disadvantage right off the bat to the best armor tankers.
Anyways, yes, nerf the damn Moros, that ship is beyond imbalance.
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R3dSh1ft
Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.18 04:34:00 -
[46]
agree. chimera and phoenix need looking at in terms of fitting a t2 tank and the cpu requirements thereof. either make it possible for the phoenix to tank with non-faction gear or nerf the other dreads so they have to chose faction gear. ______________________________________
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Morgaine Legray
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Posted - 2007.04.18 04:58:00 -
[47]
sadly, this is yet another glaring example of the games unbalance, and caldari being the ultimate suck. Thats why I uninstalled, and I suggest the phoenix pilot to do the same. Or you can always just train gallante and get that uber drone bonus that can insta pop any small ship... and still do the same dps to towers... hmm not sure where that computes as fair.
This game has the worst balance of any game I have ever played, I suggest you cancel your account, maybe if enough players do, ccp will think things through and revamp some stuff attempting balance.
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D Mackiller
Minmatar Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2007.04.18 07:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Namingway
And please fix capital shield boosters. You can make a triple rep tank run forever easier than you can make a single cap shield booster run forever, and the triple reps pwn the single booster.
Both take the same cap to run a cycle.
Repper gives 320armor/sec Booster gives 640shield/sec
Booster used 240 cap/sec Repper uses 80.
If you fit 2 reppers to give the same DPS tank as a booster, you're still using 50% less cap.
If you fit a 3rd repper, you use just as much cap as the booster, and get 960armor/sec. Even with the best possible boost amp, you'll still be worse than the 3 reppers for tanking, and there is no 8-slot shield tanking for the Phoenix, so the 'best' shield tankers, are at a 1-slot disadvantage right off the bat to the best armor tankers.
You completely forgot boost amps in your calculations.
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Paigan
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.04.18 08:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher As we all know, fitting a phoenix is a pain in the ass. Tnx to its incredibly small cpu. I have done some math and here are some reasons why its cpu should be increased.
Phoenix cpu 1031.25 Revelation cpu 812.5 Moros cpu 937.5
After fitting a basic 3 siege launcher, siege module, capital shield booster, t2 shield booster amp you have used 792.5 cpu. Thats total 76.84% of phoenix's cpu.
For comparison a revelation with 2x capital rep, 3 dual giga beams, siege module takes 475 cpu and thats only 58.46% of ships total cpu. If you fit close range weapons then it takes even less cpu.
Moros with long range weapons uses only 55.46% of its cpu.
Before you all start screaming about powergrid let me remind you that none of capital ships has any problems with that.
Let me remind you that theres no way phoenix can sustain its shield booster forever, so plz dont start screaming about "imba" tank also. T2 shield modules, T2 BCS all take more cpu to fit than armor/turret mods.
To fix Phoenix it needs around 100 more cpu.
Tnx for reading.
I have to say i disagree. I'm flying a phoenix myself for some months now and i don't have any problems with CPU.
I'm using a complete T2-only fitting (no faction, officer, cosmos, whatever stuff needed) and tank tank around 9800dps forever (average over all 4 resistances) without using a co-pro. I can as well fit 1, 2 or 3 BCU2, which of course lowers the tanking rate then.
Granted, the fitting is a little tricky to achieve. Nonetheless, if you know your modules, you don't have a CPU problem at all.
Of course i wouldn't mind getting 100 more CPU. Although you surely not need it.
-- This game is still in beta stage |
Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Paigan Edited by: Paigan on 18/04/2007 08:25:15
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher As we all know, fitting a phoenix is a pain in the ass. Tnx to its incredibly small cpu. I have done some math and here are some reasons why its cpu should be increased.
Phoenix cpu 1031.25 Revelation cpu 812.5 Moros cpu 937.5
After fitting a basic 3 siege launcher, siege module, capital shield booster, t2 shield booster amp you have used 792.5 cpu. Thats total 76.84% of phoenix's cpu.
For comparison a revelation with 2x capital rep, 3 dual giga beams, siege module takes 475 cpu and thats only 58.46% of ships total cpu. If you fit close range weapons then it takes even less cpu.
Moros with long range weapons uses only 55.46% of its cpu.
Before you all start screaming about powergrid let me remind you that none of capital ships has any problems with that.
Let me remind you that theres no way phoenix can sustain its shield booster forever, so plz dont start screaming about "imba" tank also. T2 shield modules, T2 BCS all take more cpu to fit than armor/turret mods.
To fix Phoenix it needs around 100 more cpu.
Tnx for reading.
I have to say i disagree. I'm flying a phoenix myself for some months now and i don't have any problems with CPU.
I'm using a complete T2-only fitting (no faction, officer, cosmos, drug booster, whatever stuff needed) and tank around 9800dps FOREVER (average over all 4 resistances). Without using co-pro, of course. I can as well fit 1, 2 or 3 BCU2, which of course lowers the tanking rate then.
Granted, the fitting is a little tricky to achieve. Nonetheless, if you know your modules, you don't have a CPU problem at all.
Of course i wouldn't mind getting 100 more CPU. Although you surely not need it.
do you even fly phoenix? Maybe youd like to share your "uber" setup with us so we can smash your dreams and show you how much it sucks compared to other dreads.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:57:00 -
[51]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/04/2007 09:56:48
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher so noone else thinks its a problem? Everyone should just train for gallente capital ships?
i wish people would stop the gallente pwns jibes.
it wasnt so long ago that this game was caldari online, or even when amarr ships owned (and before weapon upgrade stacking was implemented ruptures and minnie ships owned).
all ships have thei day and so what if gallente are decent now, they used to suck big time.
Yeah but that lasted about a year, 2 years ago. Ever since then its arguably been Gallente. :P
It started with the Thorax and its ability to take on battleships alone, then came the first drone command ship (Diemos). Thankfully they got nerfed but everything else has been a bonus for Gallente since then. :E
I'm so bloody bitter and I love it \o/
edit: apologies for derail, yeah fix capital ships or remove them altogether, either way is good.
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Paigan
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.04.18 12:52:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher [...] do you even fly phoenix? Maybe youd like to share your "uber" setup with us so we can smash your dreams and show you how much it sucks compared to other dreads.
No need to start flaming. Yes i did actually fly it. Against enemy poses and stuff. And it worked. It does tank what i said and it can do so forever.
Instead of flaming, why don't you just open quickfit and try to reproduce it. A little hint: PDSs are not the only low slot module that gives more cap recharge rate.
I surely won't just give away my fitting for free, because it would make me lose my advantage over people who fit just PDS etc. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Got b00ns
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
do you even fly phoenix? Maybe youd like to share your "uber" setup with us so we can smash your dreams and show you how much it sucks compared to other dreads.
I have seen the fitting myself and i am really jealous about it :( However, i wont give any hints either. If you only think in the normal caldari-modules way ... well i cant help it ^^
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Kar Anshral
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Namingway
And please fix capital shield boosters. You can make a triple rep tank run forever easier than you can make a single cap shield booster run forever, and the triple reps pwn the single booster.
Both take the same cap to run a cycle.
Repper gives 320armor/sec Booster gives 640shield/sec
Booster used 240 cap/sec Repper uses 80.
If you fit 2 reppers to give the same DPS tank as a booster, you're still using 50% less cap.
If you fit a 3rd repper, you use just as much cap as the booster, and get 960armor/sec. Even with the best possible boost amp, you'll still be worse than the 3 reppers for tanking, and there is no 8-slot shield tanking for the Phoenix, so the 'best' shield tankers, are at a 1-slot disadvantage right off the bat to the best armor tankers.
You're forgetting shield boost amps(yes they do work with capital shield booster) and no, capital armor tank values are quite comparable to capital shield tank values. shield booster is 6400 shield for 2400(-skill: assuming lvl 4 it's 2208) every 10s. Armor rep is 9600 armor for 2400 capa every 30s(+skill: assuming lvl 4 it's 24s). that's for shield booster with T2 boost amp(uses 2 slots) 880 hp/s for 220.8 cap/s, armor tank with 2 capital reps(uses 2 slots as well) it's 800 hp/s for 200 cap/s. Shield tank is slightly more boost per second but practically the same efficiency. Of course a shield tank is harder to reach the same cap recharge as is possible with armor tank.
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Kar Anshral
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:10:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Paigan
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher [...]
No need to start flaming. Yes i did actually fly it. Against enemy poses and stuff. And it worked. It does tank what i said and it can do so forever.
Instead of flaming, why don't you just open quickfit and try to reproduce it. A little hint: PDSs are not the only low slot module that gives more cap recharge rate.
I surely won't just give away my fitting for free, because it would make me lose my advantage over people who fit just PDS etc.
Tell him nothing! It's a secret!
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Tristianara
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Posted - 2007.04.19 11:48:00 -
[56]
Armor tanking can also use armor implants. This way you can have maximum 3.47M armor hp-s on amarr dread. This is good for laggy (read "every day") situations.
Why crystal implants don't work with Phoenix?
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Sadist
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.04.19 11:59:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher so noone else thinks its a problem? Everyone should just train for gallente capital ships?
Well, everyone trains minmatar for cruisers and command ships, I don't see why people can't train gallente/amarr for cap ships. So you have a ship that has problems with fitting? Wow that's really fresh. тттттттттттт
VIP member of the [23]
Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
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Cookie Snatcher
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.19 12:42:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sadist
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher so noone else thinks its a problem? Everyone should just train for gallente capital ships?
Well, everyone trains minmatar for cruisers and command ships, I don't see why people can't train gallente/amarr for cap ships. So you have a ship that has problems with fitting? Wow that's really fresh.
can anyone translate that?
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General Mar
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.19 21:34:00 -
[59]
the problem is X-Large Shield Booster
CCP double CPU for every booster upgrade, so there are 2 jump from Large booster to Capital booster and make it 4x more CPU
anyway chimera and phoenix design is outdate, if you look at Rokh, it have more CPU than Chimera, why should battleship have more CPU than carrier ? Tier-3 battleship is well design, but carrier is outdate, they need to reduce CPU on X-large/Capital booster or add more CPU to chimera and phoenix
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