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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1132
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Posted - 2016.12.07 21:20:22 -
[31] - Quote
The easiest way to implement more than one customs office is return of the Interbus ones as the "primary" interface for POCO collection and just having office style listings within that interface window much like stations. The more offices the higher the tax rates on all players using said POCO. Gives incentive to war dec and remove others "offices" within the POCO. Same deployment of the gantry and the items just only to the same Interbus POCO location instead will keep the supply/demand change for the PI parts intact while also increasing demand significantly. A listing of corps/alliance offices within the interface, accessible only from actually being at the interface. War decs prompt an attackable beacon somewhere on the planet with the same RF and destruction cycles with one addition, drop loot of any PI production or storage from planetside and or in POCOs themselves as a % of production during the war dec itself. This gives further incentive for destruction of others offices than cheaper tax rates. Can also implement monthly rental fees to Interbus as an isk sink.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Salvos Rhoska
1645
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Posted - 2016.12.07 21:31:19 -
[32] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
It is something that I have wondered, why not more than one POCO.
However it is possible to use the command centre, the key thing is to put that and where you store your goods right next to each other, then make the link experimental and you can use the launch ability with only a certain loss of time to export stuff. I do that on planets with tax rates above what I am happy to pay and it works well. The tax is the NPC value only. The thing is that many people have realised this and droppe dtheir rates to a level not to be silly.
You will find that many POCO's are owned by players lined toe the hisec merec war deccers and there are agreements between them in some areas.
1) I see no reason why there shouldnt be multiple POCOs competing on rates. 2) Your trick works, but is not an ezcuse for bad mechanics. 3) I disagree about the nature of underlying ownership of POCOs. In my view, the overwhelming majority of POCO aggression and displacement was NS entities projecting/securing their HS interests, for expedient reasons I outlined in my previous post.
Mercs dont care about POCO destruction, unless contacted to do so. Established, experienced merc corp know how to follow the daisy chain of HS alts/shadow corps back to their NS origin, and decide whether to contract or not based on that. Resistance from a NS alt front corp operating in HS will be fierce compared to a oneman corp setup that happened to setup a POCO on whichever planet.
Its just wrong, overall. Anyone should be able to setup a POCO on a planet. The monopoly of one doesnt make sense.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2835
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Posted - 2016.12.07 21:50:24 -
[33] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its just wrong, overall. Anyone should be able to setup a POCO on a planet. The monopoly of one doesnt make sense.
Your argument is that it's "wrong" that you can't just go establish your very own governmental entity where someone else has already established one without first contesting the existing governmental entity.
So, what, now anyone who wants to monopolize a high sec planet has to war dec every jackass who comes along and drops a gantry because there's literally no way to proactively defend your proverbial planetary border?
That aside, you're campaigning for change. You have to do better than, "I don't like it, it should be different because I say so."
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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Salvos Rhoska
1645
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Posted - 2016.12.07 22:00:16 -
[34] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos, anyone who openly expresses that they would gain pleasure seeing another EvE player get kicked in the face in real life is not someone I have much time for. That speaks to a quality of character that is very much at odds with my own. So I'll make this my last post.8
I don't need to be a moderator to know whether a post is off topic or not. It just means I have no power to do anything much about those posts directly.
The rest of the post is just jibberish, drawing conclusions on things not written.
So much for another ok thread.
And yet more ad hominem nonsense, defamation, off-topic, and cause to remove you from consideration in this thread.
Returning ro topic:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: The easiest way to implement more than one customs office is return of the Interbus ones as the "primary" interface for POCO collection and just having office style listings within that interface window much like stations..
I thi k the easiest and most expedient way, is simply to allow multiple POCO stations. They can then compete on the cost of their service. If you dont like it, offer a cheaper rate or blow up their POCOs,
Sure, they can setup 100 POCOs if they are rich, but they will be bleeding expense for 100 POCOs if nobody uses them cos there is 1 cheaper POCO.
Let the market regulate itself. An automatic monopoly on POCOs is anathema to EVEs competetive and diverse nature.
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Salvos Rhoska
1645
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Posted - 2016.12.07 22:27:50 -
[35] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its just wrong, overall. Anyone should be able to setup a POCO on a planet. The monopoly of one doesnt make sense.
Your argument is that it's "wrong" that you can't just go establish your very own governmental entity where someone else has already established one without first contesting the existing governmental entity. So, what, now anyone who wants to monopolize a high sec planet has to war dec every jackass who comes along and drops a gantry because there's literally no way to proactively defend your proverbial planetary border? That aside, you're campaigning for change. You have to do better than, "I don't like it, it should be different because I say so."
Wat.
My argument is that anyone can establish as many POCOs as they wish with the NPC gov entity on the planet.
I am endorsing competition and free trade, ad opposed to the current monopoly of one POCO per planet.
POCOs are not governmental entities, they are just installations in orbit which convey material in both directions, as paid for by a Capsuleer.
And no, you dont have to wardec or destroy competing POCO owners, you can simply reduce your tariff rates.
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
834
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Posted - 2016.12.07 22:42:43 -
[36] - Quote
Mr. Salvos,
You can talk to the owner and see if they will transfer it to your corporation for ISK. That's the only peaceful way other than maybe they set your standings so that taxes are much less for you and/or your group.
I live in J223650 and 6 POCO's were owned by a corporation that's been dead since YC114 (2012 and the other two were still NPC owned. We're in the process of cleaning up.
Welcome to our dark, simulated future.
@lunettelulu7
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Salvos Rhoska
1645
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:03:13 -
[37] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:Mr. Salvos,
You can talk to the owner and see if they will transfer it to your corporation for ISK. That's the only peaceful way other than maybe they set your standings so that taxes are much less for you and/or your group.
I live in J223650 and 6 POCO's were owned by a corporation that's been dead since YC114 (2012 and the other two were still NPC owned. We're in the process of cleaning up.
Welcome to our dark, simulated future.
Ms. Lulu
You are missing the point.
Why should I have to pay you anything.
Why should I not simply setup a POCO, at the same cost as yours, with a better rate than you offer on yours?
What rationale is there that since you made a POCO first on that planet, that I cant make POCOs there too and compete with you?
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2837
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:12:39 -
[38] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wat.
My argument is that anyone can establish as many POCOs as they wish with the NPC gov entity on the planet.
No, that's your *desire*. It is not your argument which, so far, doesn't seem to extend appreciably beyond, "Just cuz."
Quote:I am endorsing competition and free trade, ad opposed to the current monopoly of one POCO per planet.
POCOs are not governmental entities, they are just installations in orbit which convey material in both directions, as paid for by a Capsuleer.
You keep using that word...
It's no more a "monopoly" than my ownership over my home is a "monopoly". You're trying to make your position sound reasonable by conflating ownership of a single instance of a commodity resource with a market monopoly, which is patently nonsensical.
And as far as planetary interaction in Eve is concerned, yes, it very much is the "seat" of governmental control for planets. It sets taxes.
Quote: And no, you dont have to wardec or destroy competing POCO owners, you can simply reduce your tariff rates.
I would if I didn't want them there at all. Planetary resources are not unlimited. Most very-high tax rate POCOs aren't set that way because they want to gouge you on taxes - it's because they don't want you using their planet.
Quote:If there are 100 POCOs, for which each capsuleer owner is paying, the capsuleer owner of even one POCO with lower rates will be the choice of PI operators on that planet (themselves, capsuleers).
This is the nature of competition, whixh is integral to EVE. An automatic monopoly, as is now with POCOs, is anathema.
Bob already planted a flag on this patch of land. Alice comes along, plants her own flag with no opportunity for contention, and now the onus is on Bob to kick her ass out? How is that in the nature of "competition"?
This is just entitled nonsense "I should be able to have my vewwy own POCO without having to HTFU and pop the existing one! It's not faiw!"
There are something like 66,000 non-shattered planets. Go get your own.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
834
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:15:41 -
[39] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote:Mr. Salvos,
You can talk to the owner and see if they will transfer it to your corporation for ISK. That's the only peaceful way other than maybe they set your standings so that taxes are much less for you and/or your group.
I live in J223650 and 6 POCO's were owned by a corporation that's been dead since YC114 (2012 and the other two were still NPC owned. We're in the process of cleaning up.
Welcome to our dark, simulated future. Ms/Mrs. Lulu, You are missing the point. Why should I have to pay you, or anyone else, anything. Why should I not simply setup a POCO, at the same cost as yours, with a better rate than you offer on yours? What rationale is there that since you made a POCO first on that planet, that I cant make POCOs there too and compete with you? Sure, I can buy POCOs from existing holders. Sure, I can blow them up. But why is one POCO a monopoly? Where is the competition in that?
Interesting idea I guess. Maybe there's not enough Heavy Metals in the entire cluster to allow for two POCO's to be anchored on the same planet at the same time? I'm sure there's a fascinating lore reason.
Don't take this the wrong way but I think you are the one who misunderstands the competition here. If you don't like his POCO, offer to buy it outright, negotiate standings, or have it removed by a mercenary or even yourself.
@lunettelulu7
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Salvos Rhoska
1646
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:19:49 -
[40] - Quote
There is no rational reason why there should not be the free-market opportunity for multiple entities to place POCOs on planets, and compete on their rates.
The current monopoly system of "one POCO per planet" is anathema to EVE.
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1194
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:22:58 -
[41] - Quote
Here's a reason why multiple competing POCOs on a planet are a bad idea: It would be annoying AF to have to tear down a new troll-POCO every week just to maintain what comes down to chump change in terms of income for a group that can effectively defend a structure. If you want to put up a POCO on a planet, just tear down the existing one. If you cannot do that, you won't be able to defend your new one either. And if you *could* tear it down but don't want to for reasons that don't matter, you could either try and buy it from the owner or convince them to lower the taxes for you one way or another, for example by offering to protect it in the case of an attack. If you are unwilling or unable to do either of those, that's tough luck. Theres no reason to allow you to put up a POCO if you aren't willing to put in any effort. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2838
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:23:31 -
[42] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no rational reason why there should not be the free-market opportunity for multiple entities to place POCOs on planets, and compete on their rates.
The current monopoly system of "one POCO per planet" is anathema to EVE.
Every time you call it a "monopoly" you're effectively lying (granted, this is you we're talking about, so.. wonder of wonders).
It's simple ownership. A monopoly, in the economic sense, is something that spans the scope of an entire market. This is like whining that a mining company has a "monopoly" on their mineral rights.
It is, quite literally, not what "monopoly" means.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2838
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Posted - 2016.12.07 23:27:13 -
[43] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Here's a reason why multiple competing POCOs on a planet are a bad idea: It would be annoying AF to have to tear down a new troll-POCO every week just to maintain what comes down to chump change in terms of income for a group that can effectively defend a structure. If you want to put up a POCO on a planet, just tear down the existing one. If you cannot do that, you won't be able to defend your new one either. And if you *could* tear it down but don't want to for reasons that don't matter, you could either try and buy it from the owner or convince them to lower the taxes for you one way or another. If you are unwilling or unable to do either of those, that's tough luck. Theres no reason to allow you to put up a POCO if you aren't willing to put in any effort.
The flip side of that is that there would likely be no sense in anyone ever paying taxes again, really. Anywhere further than maybe 8 jumps from a hub, nobody would have the time or energy to blap POCOs. Net result is anyone who wants to do PI just goes out a ways and sets up their own POCO, completely eliminating the entire profession of POCO tax collector. They're cheap enough that all but the scrubbiest of scrubs could do this.
This is just more Make-Eve-Easy nonsense from people who don't want to have to contest anything.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4659
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Posted - 2016.12.08 00:27:16 -
[44] - Quote
The only POCOs in highsec that actually generate significant income via taxes are the ones within the immediate vicinity of trade hubs and generally speaking they aren'towned by nullsec entities.
Once upon a time a combination of GSF and RvB owned basically all of the POCOs in caldari highsec but that hasn't been the case for a significant amount of time.
You do still get some that are owned by nullsec groups, but they're usually someone's private asset these days, rather than something alliance controlled. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2838
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Posted - 2016.12.08 00:56:37 -
[45] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The only POCOs in highsec that actually generate significant income via taxes are the ones within the immediate vicinity of trade hubs and generally speaking they aren'towned by nullsec entities.
Once upon a time a combination of GSF and RvB owned basically all of the POCOs in caldari highsec but that hasn't been the case for a significant amount of time.
You do still get some that are owned by nullsec groups, but they're usually someone's private asset these days, rather than something alliance controlled.
That doesn't mesh well with the Supreme NS Overlords Vs. Oppressed HS Commoners narrative, though.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4661
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Posted - 2016.12.08 01:12:50 -
[46] - Quote
In literally years of shooting highsec POCOs for fun and profit we encountered defense from a nullsec group exactly once. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1132
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Posted - 2016.12.08 01:24:53 -
[47] - Quote
I can understand the sentiment of starting another business in the same economic category, aka setting up another POCO, yet I do agree with others when they say that setting up another will only just mean everyone has one. Setting up another one has zero downside. It doesnt make others more expensive, it only gives the owner isk if people use it and allow zero tax shelters for POCO usage that arent previously allowed under the current formula. Then war deccing another POCO only amounts to added BS for both sides and a cost that means nothing.
Allowing other POCOs on the planet, regardless of how it is implemented, must carry some significant detractors to get those who own it to defend their proprietary first rights to harvest said planet as well as a way to preemptively allow them to block any advance into their primary territory. This can be democratic in that sense, as a group of current owners, or as the sole owner. But atm there is no reason to add more POCO ownership rights that would benefit the entire competitive nature other than solo or small corps being able to undermine everyone else as long as it is fiscally viable, which in HS POCOs case is very slim.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Atomic Virulent
Dark Matter Industrial
171
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Posted - 2016.12.08 02:31:57 -
[48] - Quote
If anyone has made a full ROI on a POCO I'd be shocked.. and anyone who claims it is a liar. |
Marcus Binchiette
Pyrotech Creations
18
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Posted - 2016.12.08 02:42:33 -
[49] - Quote
ACESsigepps wrote:I'm curious as to how well this was implemented. How many POCs have changed hands in high sec? Is this just a passive income for those established players in EVE? I can understand corp/alliance owned offices in Null but? It also has eliminated the need of "customs code expertise" skill book which I'm sure there's hardly any NPC owned offices anymore....
The customs code skill works on POCO. It does this by creating a discount on top of the advertised player assigned rate. Say for instance you find a POCO with 25% tax rate. With Customs Code IV, you will only pay 17%. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2844
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Posted - 2016.12.08 02:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
If it was 25%, customs code expertise 4 would bring it to 21%.
Empire POCO tax is 10% base + whatever the owner assigns. Customs code expertise lowers the base. The player-assigned portion is not affected.
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Salvos Rhoska
1646
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Posted - 2016.12.08 10:42:33 -
[51] - Quote
Great but year old blog of an experiment/analysis of the subject:
http://evelostfound.blogspot.fi/2015/12/taking-and-owning-pocos-solo.html
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2550
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Posted - 2016.12.08 14:42:05 -
[52] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The only POCOs in highsec that actually generate significant income via taxes are the ones within the immediate vicinity of trade hubs and generally speaking they aren'towned by nullsec entities.
Once upon a time a combination of GSF and RvB owned basically all of the POCOs in caldari highsec but that hasn't been the case for a significant amount of time.
You do still get some that are owned by nullsec groups, but they're usually someone's private asset these days, rather than something alliance controlled. That doesn't mesh well with the Supreme NS Overlords Vs. Oppressed HS Commoners narrative, though.
Are you defining hisec merc war deccers as oppressed commoners?
Funny thing is that over the years I have kept an eye on various characters operating in hisec merc war dec entities at differing times, it is actually rather interesting...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2550
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Posted - 2016.12.08 14:45:46 -
[53] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
It is something that I have wondered, why not more than one POCO.
However it is possible to use the command centre, the key thing is to put that and where you store your goods right next to each other, then make the link experimental and you can use the launch ability with only a certain loss of time to export stuff. I do that on planets with tax rates above what I am happy to pay and it works well. The tax is the NPC value only. The thing is that many people have realised this and droppe dtheir rates to a level not to be silly.
You will find that many POCO's are owned by players lined toe the hisec merec war deccers and there are agreements between them in some areas.
1) I see no reason why there shouldnt be multiple POCOs competing on rates. 2) Your trick works, but is not an ezcuse for bad mechanics. 3) I disagree about the nature of underlying ownership of POCOs. In my view, the overwhelming majority of POCO aggression and displacement was NS entities projecting/securing their HS interests, for expedient reasons I outlined in my previous post. Mercs dont care about POCO destruction, unless contacted to do so. Established, experienced merc corp know how to follow the daisy chain of HS alts/shadow corps back to their NS origin, and decide whether to contract or not based on that. Resistance from a NS alt front corp operating in HS will be fierce compared to a oneman corp setup that happened to setup a POCO on whichever planet. Its just wrong, overall. Anyone should be able to setup a POCO on a planet. The monopoly of one doesnt make sense.
Actually you might find in certain areas that the people who own POCO's are the alt corps of hisec war dec mercs and there are agreements between them on POCO ownership. So in fact they do care about them, but as owners... Go and set up an alt corp and then but an alpha toon in it then war dec one of the POCO owners near Jita and Amarr then watch who joins the war. Fun fun fun...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa
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Marcus Blackthorn
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2016.12.08 15:00:16 -
[54] - Quote
Maybe I misunderstood (I probably did), but do you even need a POCO? I thought I remembered seeing a YouTube tutorial on PI by eveiseasy where he just launched the product into space and then went and picked it up. If that's the case, why even bother with a POCO, why pay the taxes, is there any benefit by using a POCO?
I know you can compress up to P4, is that what the POCO is for?
Thanks,
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2550
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Posted - 2016.12.08 15:34:36 -
[55] - Quote
Marcus Blackthorn wrote:Maybe I misunderstood (I probably did), but do you even need a POCO? I thought I remembered seeing a YouTube tutorial on PI by eveiseasy where he just launched the product into space and then went and picked it up. If that's the case, why even bother with a POCO, why pay the taxes, is there any benefit by using a POCO?
I know you can compress up to P4, is that what the POCO is for?
Thanks,
You can export but you cannot import that way.
Each batch can be 500 m3 and the upgrade of the link to the command centre from where you store the stuff needs to be as good as you can get it so it reduces the time that you have to wait around for another load to get to the command centre. The reason why you might not want to do it is the time you spend waiting around to be able to do another launch.
I would not call that compress, more like manufacture to P4, each P4 item is 100 m3 and you have to import from elsewhere to make P4. So a POCO enables you to manufacture P4, as you can only make P4 on Temperate or Barren planets.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa
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Aegon the Dragonbane
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2016.12.08 16:15:37 -
[56] - Quote
Do they have Custom offices in WH space owned by players? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2552
|
Posted - 2016.12.08 16:22:52 -
[57] - Quote
Aegon the Dragonbane wrote:Do they have Custom offices in WH space owned by players?
Yes
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa
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Marcus Blackthorn
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2016.12.08 16:31:03 -
[58] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Marcus Blackthorn wrote:Maybe I misunderstood (I probably did), but do you even need a POCO? I thought I remembered seeing a YouTube tutorial on PI by eveiseasy where he just launched the product into space and then went and picked it up. If that's the case, why even bother with a POCO, why pay the taxes, is there any benefit by using a POCO?
I know you can compress up to P4, is that what the POCO is for?
Thanks,
You can export but you cannot import that way. Each batch can be 500 m3 and the upgrade of the link to the command centre from where you store the stuff needs to be as good as you can get it so it reduces the time that you have to wait around for another load to get to the command centre. The reason why you might not want to do it is the time you spend waiting around to be able to do another launch. I would not call that compress, more like manufacture to P4, each P4 item is 100 m3 and you have to import from elsewhere to make P4. So a POCO enables you to manufacture P4, as you can only make P4 on Temperate or Barren planets.
Thanks.
I think I'll just play around with PI in high sec to see how the mechanics work, then move the operations to an area with a higher profit potential. |
Salvos Rhoska
1646
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Posted - 2016.12.08 17:00:04 -
[59] - Quote
Having read the article I linked, Ive come to consider perhaps Im approaching this from the wrong angle. I acknowledge that endless POCOs on any planet is not a solution. My point was it chafes me in principle that a single POCO owner can set rates without competition. Violence and buy-out are options, but I dont think they are enough.
What about somekind of POCO upkeep/maintenance?
As the article I linked suggests, there are POCOs apparently perpetually paying into long absent corps wallets.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
46244
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Posted - 2016.12.08 17:02:47 -
[60] - Quote
Forum ate my post.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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