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Lady Ayeipsia
Perkone Caldari State
1253
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Posted - 2016.12.14 17:43:07 -
[31] - Quote
One minor point.... The ship looting your wreck... You assume it is the ganked. Here's a tip, with a fast ship you can loot what others gank. It's a fun challenge and you can collect tears from the very people who are trying to collect tears from others. Plus make a decent profit. |
Memphis Baas
2514
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Posted - 2016.12.14 18:14:14 -
[32] - Quote
Bottom line, the entire scenario was played exactly according to the rules laid down by CCP. So, what are you talking to us for? Take it up with CCP, write a petition, ask them to change the game. Or stop playing if you don't like how the game is.
Whether we like or dislike suicide ganking is completely and totally irrelevant. |
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1234
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Posted - 2016.12.14 18:40:13 -
[33] - Quote
Kolinthia Lincoln wrote:Lol corporations literally pay Concord to look the other way in war decs. That's equivalent to a gang paying two cops on the side walk to look the other way while they continue down the road and beat a hotdog cart vendor to death. There's really no point to Concord because high sec isn't safe. But there really is. If there was no point to the existence of CONCORD, then Hisec would be a lot like Losec. Would you say that Hisec is like Losec?
Personally, as a player who is used to living in all areas of space, I feel quite safe in Hi. However, I do not have the illusion that I am untouchable there. I am just much harder to get to than I would be in Lo or Null, and that is thanks to the existence of CONCORD.
The simple fact that you have to pay to legally shoot a specific group, and that people can leave this group and just continue doing their thing creates a completely different environment. CONCORD does not exist to prevent combat, but to regulate it and as I see it, it works for that purpose. |
Wallstreet J0urnal
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.12.14 19:43:22 -
[34] - Quote
Grief is acceptable in EVE.
Without his alt, do you think he would still do it? Probably not.
Sadly some guys get hard ons by blowing up helpless players. To them this is acceptable and challenging pvp. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2902
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Posted - 2016.12.14 19:55:05 -
[35] - Quote
Wallstreet J0urnal wrote:Grief is acceptable in EVE.
Without his alt, do you think he would still do it? Probably not.
Sadly some guys get hard ons by blowing up helpless players. To them this is acceptable and challenging pvp.
He wasn't helpless, and attempting to dehumanize people for the way they play a game makes you sound like an infant.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Wallstreet J0urnal
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.12.14 19:58:53 -
[36] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Wallstreet J0urnal wrote:Grief is acceptable in EVE.
Without his alt, do you think he would still do it? Probably not.
Sadly some guys get hard ons by blowing up helpless players. To them this is acceptable and challenging pvp. He wasn't helpless, and attempting to dehumanize people for the way they play a game makes you sound like an infant.
Dehumanizing?
Not sure what's worse, calling an idividual names on a forum or having a different perspective of the scenario posted. Cute though, I like the infant term lol
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
452
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Posted - 2016.12.14 20:05:40 -
[37] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:In null, wh, and even low-sec, you know who your enemies are (everyone you see), in high-sec, you don't know until you get shot at, and by then it's too late.
Why should the assumption about everyone you see in null, wh, and low-sec not be an assumption used in high-sec? High-sec is actually the most dangerous space in New Eden, as anyone with experience knows.
Agent of the New Order
http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
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Iain Cariaba
3381
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Posted - 2016.12.14 21:22:24 -
[38] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:only to be oneshotted by a thrasher waiting by the common warp-in point outside jita. Congrats, OP. You've just learned why autopilot is not your friend.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
EvE is a PvP game. Stop pretending it isn't.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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killer blade2
Dying Fetus Inc.
0
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Posted - 2016.12.14 21:35:01 -
[39] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Fek Mercer wrote:only to be oneshotted by a thrasher waiting by the common warp-in point outside jita. Congrats, OP. You've just learned why autopilot is not your friend.
Yep this right here auto pilot will get you every time. |
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1235
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Posted - 2016.12.14 21:53:11 -
[40] - Quote
Wallstreet J0urnal wrote:Grief is acceptable in EVE.
Without his alt, do you think he would still do it? Probably not.
Sadly some guys get hard ons by blowing up helpless players. To them this is acceptable and challenging pvp. Who said it was an alt? Could have been a friend or a random 3rd party. Would it change anything about the situation if it was his alt? |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27160
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Posted - 2016.12.14 22:34:15 -
[41] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:You seem to have a point to me, unless someone can explain how you don't. It's a garbage alt. He uses it as a sec-status dumpster. Once sec drops too much, he trashes the character, makes a new one, rinse, repeat. Doesn't seem like he's out anything. He's out an account, what you just described is considered to be an exploit by CCP and a bannable offence.
CCP do keep an eye out for such things, biomassing a negative sec status character and rolling a new one will result in a conversation with a GM as to the reason why; it's all recorded in the database so it's trivial to run a query every so often to pick out people who do it.
The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters
New Player FAQ
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
3388
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Posted - 2016.12.15 01:45:23 -
[42] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:You seem to have a point to me, unless someone can explain how you don't. It's a garbage alt. He uses it as a sec-status dumpster. Once sec drops too much, he trashes the character, makes a new one, rinse, repeat. Doesn't seem like he's out anything. He's out an account, what you just described is considered to be an exploit by CCP and a bannable offence. CCP do keep an eye out for such things, biomassing a negative sec status character and rolling a new one will result in a conversation with a GM as to the reason why; it's all recorded in the database so it's trivial to run a query every so often to pick out people who do it. Jonah Gravenstein is absolutely correct here. I'll tell you something though, if you look at my sec status history it almost looks like a sin wave or something. I gank. I go from .2 sec to -2.something, buy ~90 mil in tags and spend about another 30 mil for CONCORD to "fix" it, and repeat. after that I'm good to gank another 10 or so haulers in 1.0 sec space. THAT is what MOST highsec campers do.
Signatures should be used responsibly...
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8395
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Posted - 2016.12.15 01:48:22 -
[43] - Quote
I avoid CONCORD all the time.
By remaining in lowsec.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Chainsaw Plankton
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2339
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Posted - 2016.12.15 02:53:22 -
[44] - Quote
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:I'd say that a thrasher and an industrial ship for the possible 80 mil drop at Jita gate isn't very good business. the reward for the risk isn't very lucrative. yea well sometimes when ganking you get bored and just shoot the next thing that comes by and is worth something. Not every shuttle has shiny implants, plex, or dank skill books.
@ChainsawPlankto
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion Flames of Exile
297
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Posted - 2016.12.15 03:04:33 -
[45] - Quote
Lemme bring you up to speed:
What happenned to you is not a breach of the rules regarding evading CONCORD. Those rules apply if the target in question somehow moves CONCORD elsewhere in the system in a manner that results in him keeping his ship. Violating agression law MUST result in the loss of the capsuleer's ship and a sec status penalty. That's what that rule is referring to.
However, what is against the rules is if the player biomasses the character that recieved the sec loss and continually creates new alts to do it with. He can't simply dumpster alt after alt to avoid the sec penalty, and I specak from personal experience here when I say that CCP is VERY good about tracking rapid character creation/deletion is association with sec status loss. CCP will first send you a strongly worded letter, and in many cases will apply a sec penalty to the new character.
CCP is OK with this form of suicide ganking, however they are not Ok with the players doing it not paying the appropriate penalty in time or ISK to fix that negative sec status. he can not simply dump negative sec characters and reroll. He need to buy tags or rat on that character to fix the sec eventually, or simply live with the sec penalty on that character. Attempting to reroll characters to get around that penalty gets hinm disciplined by CCP and repeated violations will get him banned. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1357
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Posted - 2016.12.15 07:34:13 -
[46] - Quote
lol carebear pubbies.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2908
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Posted - 2016.12.15 07:57:47 -
[47] - Quote
People keep talking about alt recycling in this thread.
OP's socks were rocked off by a 2005 character.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
473
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Posted - 2016.12.15 09:54:36 -
[48] - Quote
There was another tool available for getting that loot through the possibility of a gank: the courier contract. You drop the loot in a station a few jumps from Jita, create a courier contract with sufficient collateral to keep someone from flying off with it,and let someone else get it through the gankers.
A signature :o
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Major Trant
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
1552
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Posted - 2016.12.15 11:07:19 -
[49] - Quote
Why are people going on about biomassing and rerolling a ganking char? The OP posted on the char that got ganked, it is trivial to look up the KM and see that the ganker is an experienced pilot that has been around for years, no biomassing and rerolling has been going on.
As for the statement that his alt scooped the loot, that is a pure guess, probably true but no way of knowing for sure. The only option for CCP is to make looting a yellow wreak in hi sec a criminal offense and Concord everyone, that would be a terrible change.
To the OP there is a really, really simple lesson here: Set up a docking bookmark on every major trade hub and spam the dock button as you land. Impossible to be locked and fired on before you dock. This should be default behaviour, one of the first things every player should learn and do religiously, along with setting up an insta-out from the same major trade hubs. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
588
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Posted - 2016.12.15 12:06:11 -
[50] - Quote
Major Trant wrote: To the OP there is a really, really simple lesson here: Set up a docking bookmark on every major trade hub and spam the dock button as you land. Impossible to be locked and fired on before you dock. This should be default behaviour, one of the first things every player should learn and do religiously, along with setting up an insta-out from the same major trade hubs.
in all honesty, this is the only time i can advice to legit use the autopilot.
when you arrive at Jita system while 'waypoint' is still set to the Jita 4-4, warp to your 'docking' bookmark rather than 'dock' to station. AFTER you click 'warp' and start to warp, you then activate autopilot. no need to spam the 'dock' button, you will dock on the next tick, guaranteed.
again reminder, if you press 'dock' to station instead of warping to your 'docking' bookmark and hit autopilot you will stop far away from the station and you will propbaly die. also, you click autopilot AFTER or DURING the warp to your 'docking' bookmark.
Just Add Water
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virm pasuul
The Congregation No Handlebars.
415
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Posted - 2016.12.15 12:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:what's the purpose of concord though? To stop an area of the game from becoming a free for all, and thus allowing different playstyles. Why then, create a rule that make concord avoidance a bannable offence? Clearly, we want to keep some measure of the peace.
Spin it how you like, someone can use an alt to destroy high value targets and then, in essence, avoid concord using their main. What have they lost? It's a net gain. It is a simple matter to create another sec status dumpster to continue destroying high value targets.
They are, for all intents and purposes, immune to concord and are in the free for all zone. There are many ways to make is in eve, but this one, for all it's ingenuity, is against the rules.
You assume your idea of what concord should be in your eye is the correct one and then complain that it's broken because concord doesn't meet your criteria. Self serving logic. Spin is an appropriate word.
Gankers do not avoid concord at all. They know with absolute certainty that they will lose the ganking ship to concord. That's why they have to fit them as cheaply as possible. There's a reason gankers don't gank in expensive blingy ships.....
To trash a ganking alt and make a new one to avoid the long term penalties is considered by CCP to be an exploit.
There are many many effective mechanisms in eve to avoid being ganked. Complaining on the boards about gankers is not one. Have you considered purchasing a mining permit? They are mandatory to haul in all of high sec.
In your opinion it may be against the rules, CCP disagrees, thankfully yours is not the opinion that counts. |
Salvos Rhoska
1688
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Posted - 2016.12.15 13:39:25 -
[52] - Quote
OP has, understandably, misunderstood how these involved systems work.
Its pretty complicated to wrap ones head around at first, but it makes sense once you get it.
Just to summarize: 1-The character that blapped OP, did so within rules. 2-The character that looted his wreck, did so within rules. 3-The character that blapped OP, was not a "recycled" character to avoid sec loss. Its an old character that follows the rules. 4-The attackers ship was destroyed by CONCORD, as is within rules, and suffered sec loss, within rules. 5-There is no evidence that the attacker attempted to split CONCORD reaction, by committing a crime simultaneously elsewhere, which would be against the rules. 6-The character that looted the wreck, was declared a suspect, making them vulnerable to non-CONCORD related player aggression, without gate gun or CONCORD support, within rules.There is no sec loss for this, albeit it can be argued there should be. 7-Unfortunately the game system is imperfect and counter-intuitive in terms of safely docking and undocking from stations. --This requires the "tricks" outlined by other posters: ----To safely dock, you must set up a bookmark in the immediate physical proximity of the station, to which you warp, whilst having the station itself as your defined destination. You then engage autopilot midwarp, which will dock you immediately into the station destination upon arrival at the proximal warp destination bookmark. ----To safely undock, you must create a bookmark preferably >100km from the station, to which you will warp on undocking. To create this safe undock bookmark, you fly an expendable ship/pod without altering its course after undocking out to the desired distance.
On the one hand, its sad that such fiddly and counter-intuitive tricks are required. but on the otherhand ship destruction, risk and opportunity for aggression are crucial especially in HS, which is secured by NPC/systemic restrictions.
They are not loopholes or de facro faults in the system, rather they are narrow windows of opporunity inorder to ensure PvP and aggression is present in HS as well.
Other measures, as pointed out by other posters, are: -Creating Courier contracts for someone else to transport your material into and out of the dangerous station. ---Note to set collateral sufficient to prevent them stealing your cargo, and set a competitive reward. -Fly characters in Wardecced corps at your own risk. Avoid this by either tranferring to/NPC/creating a new corp, or flying a character in an un-wardecced corp. -Fly with sufficient tank, T2 cloaking, MWD/Cloak trick where possible, and/or very fast alignment times, as well as hulls best suited for those roles as weighed against the value/mass of cargo to be moved. -Never let your guard down. HS is not "safe", for anyone.
PvE v PvP
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3995
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Posted - 2016.12.15 16:39:47 -
[53] - Quote
Princess Adhara wrote:Don't carry valuable cargo in a ship that can be 1-shot.
Create insta docks and undocks and use them. The issue with that is all the bookmarks create lag. Many years ago all warps to gates ended at 15 km. So players would make BMs at every gate so they could warp and jump faster, evading gankers to some extent. The lag got so bad CCP changed the way warps worked. Now, when you warp to a station you get dumped some random distance away that may or may not be in docking range. You can insure it is in docking range by doing the same thing people use to do for gates: Make a close-in bookmark. (And its a good idea to make a perch BM off to the side of the station, and make your docking BM away from all the normal warp-in spots.) But, now we are right back to everyone making clouds of BMs, along with the added server load.
CCP, just move the standard warp-in point to stations 1000 meters closer, and this issue goes away.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2912
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Posted - 2016.12.15 16:54:25 -
[54] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Princess Adhara wrote:Don't carry valuable cargo in a ship that can be 1-shot.
Create insta docks and undocks and use them. The issue with that is all the bookmarks create lag. Many years ago all warps to gates ended at 15 km. So players would make BMs at every gate so they could warp and jump faster, evading gankers to some extent. The lag got so bad CCP changed the way warps worked.
If I this were any more of an eye-roller, someone would have to roll them back to me.
I have thousands of personal bookmarks. About 3 of them are station docks, a few dozen or so are insta-undocks, and the rest are things like POS/jump bridges, safes, gate pings, etc.
It's not even remotely comparable to when pretty much everyone needed a WTZ bookmark for EVERY gate, to the point that mass copying them for entire regions was a lucrative business for some.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Salvos Rhoska
1688
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Posted - 2016.12.15 17:41:09 -
[55] - Quote
Thousands of bookmarks?
Man, you've been playing way, way too long..
Dont forget to IRl every now and then, to get some distance and perspective.
PvE v PvP
<>
Old School Exploration
<>
CODE Licenses
<>
CODE Special Agent
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2912
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Posted - 2016.12.15 18:14:44 -
[56] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Thousands of bookmarks?
Man, you've been playing way, way too long..
Dont forget to IRl every now and then, to get some distance and perspective.
I'd wager I'm on the low end of the scale... By a lot. How many bookmarks do you think are in a merely "adequate" set of gate pings for a region?
Try undocking sometime, there's a big universe out there.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5587
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Posted - 2016.12.15 18:30:27 -
[57] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:I came back from my first successful exploration run in a while, only to be oneshotted by a thrasher waiting by the common warp-in point outside jita. Now while that in itself is a massive blow to morale (Right through the jaws of sabres, cloaky relic/data site traps, tactical destroyers, gate camps, only to for this to happen? gimme a break already!), I noticed something else.
There was also a cargo ship waiting at the same location. It simply picked up whatever was left of the 80 million in my hold while the thrasher was concorded. The whole situation seemed.. not right. Is this not technically a form of evading concord? The killing ship was destroyed, but the same person picked up the loot without consequence.
Working as intended. You were just taught a valuable lesson on how you were being imprudent. Use an instadock bookmark next time.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5587
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Posted - 2016.12.15 18:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:what's the purpose of concord though? To stop an area of the game from becoming a free for all, and thus allowing different playstyles. Why then, create a rule that make concord avoidance a bannable offence? Clearly, we want to keep some measure of the peace.
Spin it how you like, someone can use an alt to destroy high value targets and then, in essence, avoid concord using their main. What have they lost? It's a net gain. It is a simple matter to create another sec status dumpster to continue destroying high value targets.
They are, for all intents and purposes, immune to concord and are in the free for all zone. There are many ways to make is in eve, but this one, for all it's ingenuity, is against the rules.
CONCORD's purpose is to destroy the ship of anyone who engages in illegal aggression in HS. That is what happened. The hauler was not engaged in aggression. He was engaged in theft, so he got a suspect timer.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5587
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Posted - 2016.12.15 18:43:11 -
[59] - Quote
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:I'd say that a thrasher and an industrial ship for the possible 80 mil drop at Jita gate isn't very good business. the reward for the risk isn't very lucrative.
Thank you for advertising your complete ignorance of risk and concepts like risk aversion and risk seeking.
Risk is not just something that is simply imposed by the game mechanics. It is also a function of player behavior. Yes, the guy in the thrasher was smart and minimized his downside risk. The OP on the other hand did something that did not reduce his downside risk. In fact, his actions INCREASED is downside risk. Or to put it differently, the OP took on more risk than he probably realized...and was taught a painful and expensive lesson.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why some players are fine with arbitraging in markets--i.e. taking advantage of price differentials, but suddenly go full bore stupid on arbitraging on risk.
Solution:
1. Use instawarp/instadock bookmarks 2. Switch loot over to a more sturdy ship 1 or more jumps out.
Problem solved without having to fundamentally change the nature of the game because some players were imprudent.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5587
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Posted - 2016.12.15 18:56:11 -
[60] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
[snip good stuff]
On the one hand, its sad that such fiddly and counter-intuitive tricks are required. but on the otherhand ship destruction, risk and opportunity for aggression are crucial especially in HS, which is secured by NPC/systemic restrictions.
[snip other good stuff]
I disagree that this is sad. It is exactly what this game is about, "[T]he arising of novel and coherent structures, patterns and properties during the process of self-organization in complex systems".--Jeffery Goldstein
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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