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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2796
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 18:38:31 -
[61] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:The following dialogue occurred in the channel the Summit. It was recorded from 1:19-1:22 on December 23rd of this year:
"Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else?
Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes
Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice. Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that. Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements.
Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote"
So yes. Monster. Sinjin...!
I don't even know what to-- AAAAAAAGH!
Considering that I just got done trying to tell Ms. Teinyhr that Angels are just people like anyone else could you maybe not make a fool of me quite so fast? I mean, yes, there's variety within any faction, but you keep telling me how awful the Amarr are and then you turn around and....
Gods and spirits. |
Praevus
12
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 19:08:37 -
[62] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote: "Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else?
Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes
Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice. Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that. Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements.
Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote"
So yes. Monster.
Mr. Mokk,
With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.
I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.
10000, please. Somewhere in Amarr highsec on contract, I'm too old to smuggle slaves. Mail me to discuss the price if you are interested. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
672
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 19:21:49 -
[63] - Quote
A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?
Shocking.
As strength goes.
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
394
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 19:52:33 -
[64] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?
Shocking. Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2797
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:00:02 -
[65] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:Ayallah wrote:A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?
Shocking. Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me. Because the anniversary celebration of the first one million slave sacrifice is always another one million slave sacrifice.
Even for people as jaded as capsuleers, it's a little.... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2750
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:02:12 -
[66] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:With you? No. Indulging in debate with monsters is a waste of everyone's time.
But then I did not write this thread for you. I only responded to you at all because you grossly mischaracterized the content of the note. You.. .wound me, Lord Gaven. But I'm curious. How exactly am I a monster? The following dialogue occurred in the channel the Summit. It was recorded from 1:19-1:22 on December 23rd of this year: "Nauplius > Sinjin Mokk, were you the one who wanted to see me slaves? Or was that someone else? Sinjin Mokk > I have some for sale, yes Nauplius > Well, I do not need them now, and I still don't have a colony of them, but on the 3rd day of the 3rd month is the anniversary of the one million slave sacrifice. Nauplius > I usually start stocking up on them a month before that. Nauplius > So perhaps around that time we can discuss arrangements. Sinjin Mokk > Happy Anniversary. Let me know how many you'll want for this year and I'll give you a price quote" So yes. Monster.
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
394
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:13:25 -
[67] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Ayallah wrote:A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?
Shocking. Even the sarcasm come across as dry, I fear. How any of this is a surprise is beyond me. Because the anniversary celebration of the first one million slave sacrifice is always another one million slave sacrifice. Even for people as jaded as capsuleers, it's a little.... I was referring to Sinjin Mokks publicly made deal, actually. But to make myself clearer, I'll explain.
I've lost a lot of my ability to care about what my "ilk" (capsuleers) do to satisfy their need to be something in their own eyes. I don't have it in me to act outraged at events that a carnival fortune teller could see coming a light year off.
Conversely, that doesn't mean I find it acceptable. On the contrary, it's heinous. But it's also unsurprising. Overall, my thoughts in this instance would be summed up as "Tailor your expectations of those around you to realistically reflect what they actually do. And control your associations accordingly. The only person you can morally police is yourself."
On a personal note, and knowing a little of your unique situation, I'm a bit remorseful that you're involved in this, even by proxy, miss Jenneth.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
507
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:17:03 -
[68] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:A Khanid is acting heretical and is suspiciously associated with a Blood Raider?
Shocking.
Indeed. It would be hardly notable if he weren't trying to pretend that he was a reasonable person.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
507
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:20:18 -
[69] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Quartz Jori
Pan Eden Industries
3
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 20:31:35 -
[70] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
And I'm sure the fact he's just going to slaughter a million of them for the sake of some anniversary has nothing to do with any of this.
I mean, I don't like the Amarr but twisting words like this really doesn't help. |
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Sinjin Mokk
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1070
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:06:12 -
[71] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Arrendis wrote:
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.
No. At the end of the day, there really isn't. You work for and kill for a slaver system. You claim it's a birthright and the Will of God. So you don't get to claim some kind of moral high ground when you reap the benefits of the same system I work in.
(And that I yet again agree with Arrendis...)
Slavery is legal in the Empire. It is legal in Curse, Delve and everywhere else in NullSec. So it's a perfectly legal transaction. What my customers do with their purchases is totally beyond my control or responsibility. You have a problem with what he does, take it up with him.
"Angels live, they never die,
Apart from us, behind the sky.
They're fading souls who've turned to ice,
So ashen white in paradise."
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Sinjin Mokk
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1070
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:10:40 -
[72] - Quote
Praevus wrote:
Mr. Mokk,
With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.
I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.
10000, please. Somewhere in Amarr highsec on contract, I'm too old to smuggle slaves. Mail me to discuss the price if you are interested.
I will be in contact.
Do you prefer your Controlled Personnel to be fitted with TCMCs? I find their use to be much more humane than VITOC or other traditional methods.
"Angels live, they never die,
Apart from us, behind the sky.
They're fading souls who've turned to ice,
So ashen white in paradise."
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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
362
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:17:59 -
[73] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The mechanics of cloning and the impact on the psyche from practical immortality are two very different things.How the practical immortality is achieved makes little difference, be it magic, cloning, someone inventing an immortality pill, or whatever else you can dream up that'd achieve it. The impact is what matters, not the mechanic used. Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different.
Impact does indeed matter greatly, I would completely agree on that. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2752
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:19:07 -
[74] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Arrendis wrote:
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them.
Sure, the difference is that one of the following actions is illegal:
1)selling slaves in nullsec
2)Military assets of the Amarr Empire raiding in Republic space.
Can you guess which one breaks laws and which one doesn't because his alliance makes the laws where he is? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2752
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:22:01 -
[75] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote: (And that I yet again agree with Arrendis...)
Stop doing that.
Also, stop enslaving the baseliner crews off of destroyed enemy ships, it's tacky. Just ransom them back to their captain. |
Praevus
14
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 21:22:32 -
[76] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:I will be in contact.
Do you prefer your Controlled Personnel to be fitted with TCMCs? I find their use to be much more humane than VITOC or other traditional methods. Excellent. Yes, for the transfer period TCMCs will do.
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
511
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 22:07:50 -
[77] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:The mechanics of cloning and the impact on the psyche from practical immortality are two very different things.How the practical immortality is achieved makes little difference, be it magic, cloning, someone inventing an immortality pill, or whatever else you can dream up that'd achieve it. The impact is what matters, not the mechanic used. Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different. Impact does indeed matter greatly, I would completely agree on that.
I would also suggest that you do not understand the impact unless you also understand the mechanics that cause it.
The fact that our "practical immortality" is created by dying over and over again is not a negligible issue. If that immortality were attained by different means, then it is very likely that the impact on the psyche would be quite different.
This is especially true if you accept the existence of souls and the need for the soul to move from one embodiment to the next. That adds a layer of complexity to the process of cloning that would be absent in a less violent form of immortality.
What the Theology Council has done here is affirmed the power of the Imperial Rite to overcome this problem. Given that there has been a great deal of doubt that this was the case over the last decade, with people even arguing that clones were all souless creatures, this is a very important ruling.
It is an important positive statement that the Faith can in fact heal the damage done by the violent transfers of consciousness that are inherent in the cloning process.
What it is not is a blind acceptance of cloning as non-damaging. If you read previous threads on the ruling, you will find that people were taking the ruling as being far simpler than it was. Hence this discussion.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
693
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 22:26:03 -
[78] - Quote
Quote: With all possible respect to mr. Nauplius' religious beliefs, mass sacrifice of otherwise uncompromised livestock is a wasteful and extremely unpractical action, and he, no doubt, is going to just kill them all off.
I, on the contrary, think of the grand future of humanity in New Eden, and so do my contacts who would like to purchase some of your stock before it perishes at the hands of our a bit too zealous friend here.
The chief aim of man is to glorify God. Minmatar slaves can glorify God only in their destruction. Whether or not you think it "practical", a Minmatar slave can hardly glorify God any more than as a participant in the annual One Million Slave Sacrifice. Amen. Smart Victor. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
362
|
Posted - 2016.12.24 22:44:09 -
[79] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Arrendis wrote:
Hang on. An Amarr Militia leader is declaring someone a monster for slaving? While Amarr forces continue to conduct raids within the Republic? Seriously? The guy who's at least honest about what he's doing is the monster?
There is rather large difference between Amarrian slave holding practices and selling slaves to someone who openly intends to ritually murder them. Sure, the difference is that one of the following actions is illegal: 1)selling slaves in nullsec 2)Military assets of the Amarr Empire raiding in Republic space. Can you guess which one breaks laws and which one doesn't because his alliance makes the laws where he is? Enslaving POWs by military officers in times of war and during other military actions are not against the Empire law, just saying. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2756
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 00:08:01 -
[80] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:I would also suggest that you do not understand the impact unless you also understand the mechanics that cause it.
I would suggest you are conflating 'cause' and 'effect'. While it might be accurate to say that you don't understand the phenomena unless you understand the causes, understanding the impact of the phenomena doesn't require understanding the cause. An example:
I can understand the impact of blunt-force trauma of a specific size, shape, and level of energy on a human skull. I can measure the energy imparted, the deformation of the bone as a result, the damage to soft-tissue, and on and on.
I can do this without knowing if the object that did the damage was swung intentionally, or if the impact was accidental. I don't have to know if the materal that it was made of was a modern nanocarbon composite, an iron rod, or a particularly dense stick. I don't even have to know if it was actually swung, if the victim was flung into the object, I don't need to know anything about what caused an object 6 cm long, 2 cm across, with a rounded profile, imparting roughly 1,200 joules per square centimer of force to the side of someone's skull to determine what the impact of that impact was.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
679
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 00:22:18 -
[81] - Quote
Thank you for the explanation of the Exhortation Gaven.
I want to remind everyone the soul can be damaged by loss, hardship, pain, Isolation, and exposure. But it is strong and endures and has endured through all of human history.
I believe with faith, it can endure the Empyrean age too.
Quote:". . .as the flesh of their birth would speak to us" AndQuote:The Theology Council also noted and reaffirmed that the Yulai Convention's prohibition on simultaneous instantiations of a single personality in multiple clones is in accord with Amarr scripture. Should both serve as warning to those who have thought of Transhumanism. You could be risking more than the memories of a soft clone with your actions.
As strength goes.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2756
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 00:24:54 -
[82] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote: Mechanics that lead to a cause should not be so easily dismissed, especially if it is the only one that makes it posible. In other words if you remove the mechanics, the impact might cease to exist or be entirely different.
But is it?
Consider: is it the potential longevity that causes the disassociation with mortality, or the serial replacement of the deceased with another being who self-identifies as the same being?
Full disclosure on this, I disagree with the majority of 'accepted' capsuleer thought in that I don't consider myself immortal. I consider myself just under 37d old, with a life expectancy of approximately 28-32d. Pushing that envelope now, though. Go me! Eventually, there will be another Arrendis Culome, just as there have been more of us so far than I really feel comfortable counting, given that average life expectancy. When that next 'me' shows up, she won't be me. I'll have died. She'll just have all my memories. There will not be a true continuity of experience, only a record of the experiences of myself and my predecessors.
I bring up the difference because we've seen the slow disassociative tendencies recorded in the behavior of extremely long-lived Amarr nobility, who, after all, can stretch their lives out to well over three or four centuries. Is that a similar condition? Is it related? It is the same condition, only developing slower because of the different nature and time-scales on which the individual faces the idea that everyone around them dies, but they stay just the same?
It doesn't happen to all of them, but then, it doesn't happen to all of us, either. So while understanding the cause of a condition is certainly necessary in order to understand the condition (but not, as I already mentioned, necessary to understand the impact that condition has), it's a bit premature to try to definitively claim that anything is the 'only one that makes it possible'.
Note: 'if you remove the mechanics' in your example would less be a case of removing the mechanics, and more one of 'if you remove the condition', given you've based the statement on the premise that cloning is the only possible way to engender 'practical immortality'. Thus, given your premise, you'd be altering or completely removiong the condition. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2756
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 00:25:57 -
[83] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Enslaving POWs by military officers in times of war and during other military actions are not against the Empire law, just saying.
And which part of that applies to Amarr military assets conducting slave raids in Republic high-sec outside of the sanctioned warzone again? |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
514
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 09:17:43 -
[84] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Enslaving POWs by military officers in times of war and during other military actions are not against the Empire law, just saying. And which part of that applies to Amarr military assets conducting slave raids in Republic high-sec outside of the sanctioned warzone again?
The CEWPA treaty does not limit military action to the established capsuleer influenced warzone to the degree that you seem to think it does. Unlike the Gallente and Caldari, who have signed ceasefires further limiting their state of war in the aftermath of the battles for the planet Caldari, such ceasefires have not happened between the Matari and Amarr.
That said, the vast majority of these reported slave raiding incursions have always been by illegal slavers masquerading as navy to cover their trail. So you are talking about criminals who are more like Sinjin than not.
Faithful Amarrians value the souls of all people brought under Amarrian protection and we view them as humans who are in need of our guidance. On the other hand, those enslaved by the Angels are treated as things rather than people (see Sinjin's use of TCMCs) and are sold with no regard to the morality of the transaction.
A slave in the Amarrian system will never be sacrificed on a perverse whim to a false God or sold to a non-believer just to make some fast cash.
You can hate our system all you want, but not acknowledging that difference is just an exercise in willful ignorance.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2760
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 10:12:39 -
[85] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote: That said, the vast majority of these reported slave raiding incursions have always been by illegal slavers masquerading as navy to cover their trail. So you are talking about criminals who are more like Sinjin than not.
You realize how thin that is, right? 'It's totally ok! and besides, it's not really us, it's those guys pretending to be us!'.
Quote: Faithful Amarrians value the souls of all people brought under Amarrian protection and we view them as humans who are in need of our guidance. On the other hand, those enslaved by the Angels are treated as things rather than people (see Sinjin's use of TCMCs) and are sold with no regard to the morality of the transaction.
TCMCs and Vitox are used in the Empire as well. Quite a number of people here have been involved in efforts to help escaped, liberated, or freed slaves deal with the trauma each of them represents.
Quote: A slave in the Amarrian system will never be sacrificed on a perverse whim to a false God or sold to a non-believer just to make some fast cash.
Sure they won't. I smell a 'no true Amarrian' fallacy coming.
Quote: You can hate our system all you want, but not acknowledging that difference is just an exercise in willful ignorance.
If I were to take a baseliner, any baseliner, and shoot them in the head, or set them on fire, those things are different.
They're still dead, either way. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
514
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 11:55:37 -
[86] - Quote
It isn't weak at all, if you look at evidence. The two points are separate and stand on their own.
First, the raids are not ours.
Facts of note: 1. The number of capsuleer reported "Amarrian Slave Raids" is quite high. 2. These reports predate the war. 3. These raids would have been considered acts of war before the Shakorite invasion. 4. There are few to no reported incidents of such raids in the news. 5. Much smaller incidents than those reported by capsuleers have regularly made the news.
If these raids were really Amarrian Imperial attacks and the Republic could have proven it, we would have known that for a fact because they would have trumpeted this fact to the universe while we were at peace. This means that they did not in fact believe that these raids were being caused by the real Amarrian navy before the war, or at the very least could not prove it.
As these reported raids continued at effectively the same rate before and after the declaration of war, it is most reasonable to assume that they are not related to the war. Given that the military would have changed its deployments thanks to the war, the obvious assumption is that these were not military in the first place.
The second point is that Amarr taking direct action against the Republic would be legitimate thanks to the war that they started. Your point that Amarr is not allowed by treaty to attack the republic is inaccurate. However, you can rest assured that if we had taken such action you would know about it and it would take a somewhat more impressive form than some slave raids.
Quote:If I were to take a baseliner, any baseliner, and shoot them in the head, or set them on fire, those things are different.
They're still dead, either way.
You are just being silly now. Or do you really think that the end result of enslavement by a Holder and being ritually murdered by a blood raider is the same?
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
514
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 12:17:02 -
[87] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Quote:". . .as the flesh of their birth would speak to us" And Quote:The Theology Council also noted and reaffirmed that the Yulai Convention's prohibition on simultaneous instantiations of a single personality in multiple clones is in accord with Amarr scripture. Should both serve as warning to those who have thought of Transhumanism. You could be risking more than the memories of a soft clone with your actions.
Yes. If the soul is embodied, then having multiple clones at once either means that the soul is diffused between them in some fashion or that only one of them is an embodied soul and the rest are soulless monsters.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2762
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 16:04:20 -
[88] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:you would know about it and it would take a somewhat more impressive form than some slave raids.
I've seen what the Empire considered 'impressive'. Watched it die, too. Sorry, Ali. It was fitted like crap and would've vaporized under the loving attention of FCON, let alone a competent entity.
Quote:Quote:If I were to take a baseliner, any baseliner, and shoot them in the head, or set them on fire, those things are different.
They're still dead, either way. You are just being silly now. Or do you really think that the end result of enslavement by a Holder and being ritually murdered by a blood raider is the same?
I think slavery is slavery, and it is abuse, and it is a crime against the essential humanity of those enslaved. What happened next is its own issue. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
514
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 16:07:45 -
[89] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
I think slavery is slavery, and it is abuse, and it is a crime against the essential humanity of those enslaved. What happened next is its own issue.
Well what happens next is what I was calling monstrous.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1020
|
Posted - 2016.12.25 16:18:52 -
[90] - Quote
It was monstrous before that stage comes along. I know it's difficult to reach below the bottom of the barrel or sink lower than bedrock, but someone finding a way doesn't lift the rest out of the murky depths. |
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