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BlackPrince
Amarr Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.16 04:47:00 -
[211]
Recommended system configuration for running EVE-Online OS: Windows« System 2000 SP2 / XP CPU: Intel Pentium« IV 1.5 GHz or AMD XP 1500+ MHz RAM: 1024 MB HD space: 6.0 GB Video: 128 MB GeForce 6200 class card or higher Network: Broadband Internet connection Drivers: DirectX« 9.0c (included) and latest video drivers --== snip ==--
There is no lag, we're all just using 56k connections on old exposed copper wire in the rain on 486s. Obviously if we upgraded to the recommended system specs we wouldn't experience any problems.
Right, Mathew? *snicker* -=BlackPrince=- "Fair fights are for suckers."
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.04.16 07:06:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Mister Zero CCP would have everyone believe that:
a; lag is due to network issues between you and EVE servers b; your system is not able to handle the graphics, etc. c; there's a DirectX conflict or that your drivers are bad/old.
Trolling? I'll bite.
Quote: Truth is, most system are MORE than enough to handle EVE's demands.
"are MORE" => "SHOULD be more" There is no PC that is fast enough for the Eve client.
Quote: The issue is purely on CCP's end and their servers/nodes not being able to effectively manage the load.
While that can be true, it's not what causes stutter.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.04.16 08:23:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Sniser and why not instead do this when the server is dying, just be a bit more foresighted and if One system have 200 - 300 guys in local or more but they arent fighting yet. Just give them a single node because if there are in one single system many guys is because its preparing a big huge fight.
Well, the trick is knowing if they are going to stay there to fight, or are just forming up to go somewhere else. If the code is too sensitive, it'll end up re-mapping every system on the pipe as your blob travels. That's not going to be pretty.
Then you have to allow for systems where 200-300 is a normal gathering and would not indicate a fleet fight, or indeed unusual load.
And also bear in mind that there are not an unlimited number of nodes available, so it really isn't feasible to give a dedicated node to every system that might play host to a fight.
Originally by: Sniser CCP guys could have some special nodes with ultra huge hardware used only for those big fleet battles and the other nodes just for usually things
Every node is a special ultra huge node. There simply aren't any more powerful blades available.
Originally by: Solbright Something in that logic don't fit. If the client receives some info then why not show it on display? Are you saying there is nothing at all arriving for a minute at a time? Or are you saying that it won't display the new info because it knows the info is out of date?
It's called a Blocking Call. When one of these happens in the client code, the client will not do anything else until that call is resolved. If the call requires a server response, and that response is slow in coming, then you will not get any more frames rendered until the server responds and the entire call is completed.
They are evil, are occasionally necessary, but should really be avoided at all costs. It seems a recent patch introduced one where there wasn't one before.
For example, if "who's locking me" has become a blocking call on the client, and you get locked by 100 people simultaneously, the server may lag a bit sending you the full list of who's locking you. If it wasn't a blocking call, that would just mean you'd see some of the locking indicators on the overview slightly late. But with it being a blocking call, you won't get anything rendered until the full lock list comes in.
Originally by: BlackPrince There is no lag, we're all just using 56k connections on old exposed copper wire in the rain on 486s. Obviously if we upgraded to the recommended system specs we wouldn't experience any problems.
Right, Mathew? *snicker*
I do hope that's not aimed at me. I have never denied that there is lag. I have never blamed lag on your PC or your internet connection. What I have done is explain why lag happens in systems you wouldn't expect it to, what I suspect is happening differently to normal in this specific case, and why the "obvious" fixes are not in fact as quick and easy as some people make out. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.04.16 08:57:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Matthew
Every node is a special ultra huge node. There simply aren't any more powerful blades available.
That made me laugh. First of all, blades aren't the most powerful hardware you can get, second the stuff IBM sold to CCP back then is already outdated by their current Intel based offerings, third even back then their Power(tm) based blades were probably suited better to the workload (yes, I know that CCP loves x86+Microsoft).
Quote:
They are evil, are occasionally necessary, but should really be avoided at all costs. It seems a recent patch introduced one where there wasn't one before.
The client has always been full of those ... System scanner, "show info" etc. etc. all could freeze the client indefinitely.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.04.16 09:05:00 -
[215]
Quote: That made me laugh. First of all, blades aren't the most powerful hardware you can get, second the stuff IBM sold to CCP back then is already outdated by their current Intel based offerings, third even back then their Power(tm) based blades were probably suited better to the workload (yes, I know that CCP loves x86+Microsoft).
a) Didn't they just get those? As in a month or two ago? You can't expect them to buy something like that every month.
b) Didn't they have to ask the military for permission to export them? They sound powerful enough to me.
c) It seems fairly obvious to me that all of this lag is not due to the quality of the hardware.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - "We need to invent a new Clue Super Weapon... Something that distributes clue on a never before seen level." -Cpt Psycho |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.04.16 09:33:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Frug
b) Didn't they have to ask the military for permission to export them? They sound powerful enough to me. I'm surprised someone is complaining about that, of all things.
That's probably a PR stunt since you can buy those things all over the world.
Quote:
c) It seems fairly obvious to me that all of this lag is not due to the quality of the hardware on either end.
Yes, it's due to sloppy programming, but the claim I was refuting was that the hardware was the best you could get, which it isn't. It's good for "processing power per m¦" but certainly not for "best affordable processing power".
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Amitabh Bachchan
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Posted - 2007.04.16 09:53:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Amitabh Bachchan on 16/04/2007 09:51:15 Lets be honest here. CCP really need to either optomise the client, or invest in supercomputers. Supercomputers tend to cost more than the annual turnover of CCP so I think we all know where the focus should be on then :)
Or just remove all these turret calculations etc etc so that the server is not bogged down calculating if the drone's optimal is enough to hit the traget hostile drones tranversal, taking ship and gang skills into account etc etc
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UndergrounD
Caldari Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks
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Posted - 2007.04.16 10:01:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Sniser and why not instead do this when the server is dying, just be a bit more foresighted and if One system have 200 - 300 guys in local or more but they arent fighting yet. Just give them a single node because if there are in one single system many guys is because its preparing a big huge fight.
Well, the trick is knowing if they are going to stay there to fight, or are just forming up to go somewhere else. If the code is too sensitive, it'll end up re-mapping every system on the pipe as your blob travels. That's not going to be pretty.
Then you have to allow for systems where 200-300 is a normal gathering and would not indicate a fleet fight, or indeed unusual load.
And also bear in mind that there are not an unlimited number of nodes available, so it really isn't feasible to give a dedicated node to every system that might play host to a fight.
Originally by: Sniser CCP guys could have some special nodes with ultra huge hardware used only for those big fleet battles and the other nodes just for usually things
Every node is a special ultra huge node. There simply aren't any more powerful blades available.
Originally by: Solbright Something in that logic don't fit. If the client receives some info then why not show it on display? Are you saying there is nothing at all arriving for a minute at a time? Or are you saying that it won't display the new info because it knows the info is out of date?
It's called a Blocking Call. When one of these happens in the client code, the client will not do anything else until that call is resolved. If the call requires a server response, and that response is slow in coming, then you will not get any more frames rendered until the server responds and the entire call is completed.
They are evil, are occasionally necessary, but should really be avoided at all costs. It seems a recent patch introduced one where there wasn't one before.
For example, if "who's locking me" has become a blocking call on the client, and you get locked by 100 people simultaneously, the server may lag a bit sending you the full list of who's locking you. If it wasn't a blocking call, that would just mean you'd see some of the locking indicators on the overview slightly late. But with it being a blocking call, you won't get anything rendered until the full lock list comes in.
Originally by: BlackPrince There is no lag, we're all just using 56k connections on old exposed copper wire in the rain on 486s. Obviously if we upgraded to the recommended system specs we wouldn't experience any problems.
Right, Mathew? *snicker*
I do hope that's not aimed at me. I have never denied that there is lag. I have never blamed lag on your PC or your internet connection. What I have done is explain why lag happens in systems you wouldn't expect it to, what I suspect is happening differently to normal in this specific case, and why the "obvious" fixes are not in fact as quick and easy as some people make out.
Makes sense to me, thanks for explaining that in plain english. -----------------------------------------------
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.04.16 10:51:00 -
[219]
Cool, someone to butt heads with. Was feeling neglected by CCP...
Originally by: Matthew For example, if "who's locking me" has become a blocking call on the client, and you get locked by 100 people simultaneously, the server may lag a bit sending you the full list of who's locking you.
Won't even be the case internal to the client. Blocking against the server would be a really stupid action. It would entirely defeat the purpose of decoupling.
At any rate, it's clearly not blocking, from observation, because CPU usage doesn't fall to zero for those periods. Where CPU usage does drop-off a bit is when HDD accesses are occuring, so I'll agree that blocking calls are used for caching and the likes.
As for accidental blocking, not bloody likely. There will be untold layers of bloatware framework that the devs will be expected to utilise. Particularly for server interaction.
To rub some salt in here, the recent extreme cases are a "no lag" situatation according to server logs. I'd be inclined to accept atleast that much as being fact.
And actions like "who's locking me" just don't happen. Firstly, the client doesn't need to know such info to function. Secondly, such info will arrive in it's own good time, purely for displaying to the pilot. You can include all the little open menu and window stutters with this. There is no need for the client to block on this, and it won't be, the info will arrive for your viewing pleasure in due course. Mean while, rendering and user input continues.
What it will be doing is bogging down after the new packets have arrived, the client can't process the data quick enough without causing a stutter.
That's how bloated the client is.
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Flaming sambuka
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.04.16 10:55:00 -
[220]
Im totally getting ye OP, although it seems that it is only certain systems affected. A few days ago INFOD fought ED and battered them althought it, for me (and them) wasnt an enjoyable fight due to pretty much all of us having 1 fpm (not fps). Now this was in Skarkon? But yah, yesterday we had a fight with RIOT some place in 0.0 (gf btw) and there was hardly any lag. They had about the same numbers as the ED engagement and we had about the same too, they had carriers with fighters deployed too so i cant see it being fighters causing lag which has been suggested.
Anyway - CCP i know your rich gits so pull a fiver out and spend it on yarrdware and get this lag sorted.
My 0.23 isk.
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Gaius BaItar
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:08:00 -
[221]
I have a feeling that missions play a large part in raising the lag in empireÆs fights. Add 10 mission runners (every one of them spawning tens of NPCs) to 100 players in a system and you will certainly get lag. Suggestion: lower the number of NPC ships in missions and increase their strength.
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Caladarr
Caldari Thundercats
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:27:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Caladarr on 16/04/2007 11:29:18 I've also been a victim of the horrid lag monster recently and I think it's the Client which is the problem (or at least behaviour from the server causes problems in the client).
A few days ago I logged into EVE before DT and everything was fine. After DT, logged back in and started getting "freeze/pause" type lag. This happened when jumping through gates mostly, with a number of jumps ending in a warping/movement type graphic background with no overview or GUI loaded. I would re-log and found that I had been emergency warped. I also was unable to turn off modules after I had activated them (MWD for instance).
This went on for a while and I thought it had settled down... I joined a gang and we payed ED- a visit to see if FIX wanted to play. We stayed there for a bit then warped back to the gate to exit... we held there for a while (or so I thought).
At this point, my Client got completely "ignored" by the server... Everything looked fine, gang mates were sitting on the gate, client looked normal etc... In reality, the gang had jumped into the next system and was camping another gate with nothing happening... so even on TS I didn't think anything was wrong... then after 4-5 minutes, I get a rapid burst of activity on the screen, shield/armor/structure gone, a burst of updates in the chat windows etc... then the client froze again.
Admitting defeat, I closed the client and tried to logon again, but got stuck at the "setting up station" window... gave up in disgust and went to bed (sleep :P) got up the next day and still could not login. Petitioned it and got moved to another station which fixed the login problem... meanwhile I still had no ship (and had lost my pod).
I was killed and podded by a solo Rohk using 425mm T2's... I'm happy for him to get the kill but I was on the gate, no way he should have got me. Nothing showed in logs and combat log was completely empty! Re-imbursement was denied due to no proof... well It's hard to prove anything if the client simply doesn't recieve or process the data from server. heh.
All I can see of the "freeze" is in the chat logs.. here's the gang chat (I have edited and added "..." to replace edits)...
[ 2007.04.13 12:53:49 ] Retsej > ty mate [ 2007.04.13 12:54:13 ] Machiavelli7 > align to ... [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] Machiavelli7 > wait on gate [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] The GlaZee > ... [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] Machiavelli7 > jump [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] ZMasterz > yumpyump :) [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] Kollgorholl > i'm not ... [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] ZMasterz > watp to ... at optimal [ 2007.04.13 13:00:08 ] ZMasterz > k koll
I'm not worried about the loss at all but the lag situation is really out of hand. Before Revelations I used to take part in large fleet battles (200+) and the lag was present, but acceptable with sound, turret effects, all effects etc... turned off. Now it's simply unplayable for a lot of participants.
edit: fixed a typo
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Asuo
The Wild Hunt
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:54:00 -
[223]
Its gotten so bad me and Derek have started baking cookies in prepration for the EVE-2 party. -----------------------------------------------
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:55:00 -
[224]
Here's my interpretation:
Originally by: Caladarr ... This happened when jumping through gates mostly, with a number of jumps ending in a warping/movement type graphic background with no overview or GUI loaded. I would re-log and found that I had been emergency warped. I also was unable to turn off modules after I had activated them (MWD for instance).
Common lag. Looks like you were having connection problems. Good idea to start ping'ing eve-online.com at such times and watch for fluctuations in the times.
Quote: At this point, my Client got completely "ignored" by the server... Everything looked fine, gang mates were sitting on the gate, client looked normal etc... In reality, the gang had jumped into the next system and was camping another gate with nothing happening... so even on TS I didn't think anything was wrong... then after 4-5 minutes, I get a rapid burst of activity on the screen, shield/armor/structure gone, a burst of updates in the chat windows etc... then the client froze again.
Lag followed by stutter then recovering then bombing out. Due to a big update arriving from server - ship loss and podding too quick for the client to process so goes bye-bye.
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Mister Zero
Synergy Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:04:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Solbright There is no PC that is fast enough for the Eve client.
Then you and everyone else here is a waterhead for paying for a game you cannot play.
Get a decade, bozo. Computers today have more than enough raw processing power to run EVE. Most gaming 'bottlenecks' occur in the graphics department and that is NOT the case with EVE.
In case you hadn't noticed, there's nothing on the screen, how can it be 'lagging' your computer?
The EVElag is caused by its server being unable to cope with the load. Period.
CCP know this but aren't about to come forward with it. Why do you think WoW uses instance dungeons? No amount of routine tweaking or hardware can currently keep up with server loads.
EVE's concept, while possible a few years ago, has outgrown its ability to deliver on promises.
Wake up. You and everyone else paying for this nonsense are being taken for a ride.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:11:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Mister Zero
Originally by: Solbright There is no PC that is fast enough for the Eve client.
Then you and everyone else here is a waterhead for paying for a game you cannot play.
Get a decade, bozo. Computers today have more than enough raw processing power to run EVE. Most gaming 'bottlenecks' occur in the graphics department and that is NOT the case with EVE.
In case you hadn't noticed, there's nothing on the screen, how can it be 'lagging' your computer?
The EVElag is caused by its server being unable to cope with the load. Period.
CCP know this but aren't about to come forward with it. Why do you think WoW uses instance dungeons? No amount of routine tweaking or hardware can currently keep up with server loads.
EVE's concept, while possible a few years ago, has outgrown its ability to deliver on promises.
Wake up. You and everyone else paying for this nonsense are being taken for a ride.
Actually the current fleet lag, which this thread was originally about, is being caused by the client doing something stupid on a frame by frame basis. Server lag is essentially when modules and actions are unresponsive, but framerates are unaffected.
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Flaming sambuka
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:13:00 -
[227]
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Mister Zero
Originally by: Solbright There is no PC that is fast enough for the Eve client.
Then you and everyone else here is a waterhead for paying for a game you cannot play.
Get a decade, bozo. Computers today have more than enough raw processing power to run EVE. Most gaming 'bottlenecks' occur in the graphics department and that is NOT the case with EVE.
In case you hadn't noticed, there's nothing on the screen, how can it be 'lagging' your computer?
The EVElag is caused by its server being unable to cope with the load. Period.
CCP know this but aren't about to come forward with it. Why do you think WoW uses instance dungeons? No amount of routine tweaking or hardware can currently keep up with server loads.
EVE's concept, while possible a few years ago, has outgrown its ability to deliver on promises.
Wake up. You and everyone else paying for this nonsense are being taken for a ride.
Actually the current fleet lag, which this thread was originally about, is being caused by the client doing something stupid on a frame by frame basis. Server lag is essentially when modules and actions are unresponsive, but framerates are unaffected.
So it's the code that is borked?
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Jonas Vance
Orion's Nebula Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.16 15:43:00 -
[228]
Whole thread
/signed
Everyone just hit Ctrl-Tab. Will fix all the client lag. Either that or Alt-F4 |
Viqer Fell
Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.16 17:06:00 -
[229]
It would appear that way yes sam.
This doesn't appear to be server side lag at all but more to do with the way the client freezes up for extensive amount of times but maybe the freeze up is due to something the client is asking the server to do, I do not know.
One way to simulate the effect is to simply have a fleet of maybe 20 ships of mixed types all jump through a gate in an average empire system, say add 10 people in local stations and travelling and a few mission runners. Assuming you all get through fine with no lag on the jump then have everyone stay cloaked. Then the FC warps the wing to a location. For maybe 2-3 seconds the client freezes up then suddenly off you go again and half of the fleet are already in warp. Now change circumstance and have the fleet jump into a fight and have the freeze last 90 secs..... 2 mins ......4 mins.....
The lag we are talking about here is exactly the same type of screen freeze but seems to go on and on....and on....and on....and on and then on some more and just when you think it's gone and your screen updates you are back watching a slide show again.
Click here to visit our site
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Aramark
Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.16 19:54:00 -
[230]
"jumping................................................................................... ........................................................................................... ........................................................................................... ........................................................................................... ........................................................................................... ............................................................................................. ........................................................................................... ............................................................................................ ........................................................................................... ........................So you died? Well you have a Clone Grade XXXXX at XXXXXXX moon XXXXXX station. Enjoy your afterlife."
awesome
-------------------------------------------------------------- Aasia: |
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Shebee
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.16 21:00:00 -
[231]
I had no lag seeing a like 15 vs 15 battle or something.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.04.17 00:26:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Mister Zero
Originally by: Solbright There is no PC that is fast enough for the Eve client.
Then you and everyone else here is a waterhead for paying for a game you cannot play.
Agreed. Eve is really still in beta, not ready for the paying customer.
Quote: In case you hadn't noticed, there's nothing on the screen, how can it be 'lagging' your computer?
It's not nothing, the screen is frozen, nothing is when it's empty and you can still look around.
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Tractormech
Caldari Fortune's Fools
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Posted - 2007.04.17 01:35:00 -
[233]
This is really unnacceptable. Sorry to say but i think I'm done with eve for a while. I really enjoyed it for a near good year but its just to the point of being fed up. I'll be taking 4 other accounts with me aswell.
All the gameplay in the world doesn't make up for the sad joke that this game is right now.
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Mister Zero
Synergy Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.17 01:43:00 -
[234]
//signed.
If enough people act on it, maybe CCP will finally do something about it and we can return to a game we all *should* be enjoying.
The 'lag' monsters have been around for ages, well over 2 years, nothing's been done. In fact, CCP have only made the problem worse by their advertising blitz. Anyone notice the noob whordes lately? CCP fill their bank accounts while we fill the petition inbox.
FIX THE PROBLEMS ONCE AND FOR ALL, CCP!!!
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Phoebus Athenian
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.17 05:01:00 -
[235]
BP my pc is 4x of the game requirements... And as far as the connection, cable. There is no excuse, the game didn't run like this in the past...
---
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BlackPrince
Amarr Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.17 15:38:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Phoebus Athenian BP my pc is 4x of the game requirements... And as far as the connection, cable. There is no excuse, the game didn't run like this in the past...
I know PA, I was being facetious and using it to point out what a load of male bovine fecal matter it is.
My system surpassed the minimum specs when I first started playing, as my system has improved over the years, my playing experience has gone downhill. -=BlackPrince=- "Fair fights are for suckers."
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AproK
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Posted - 2007.04.17 20:23:00 -
[237]
/signed
Im already looking for another cool game, and when I find it, CCP can get **** from me. Sucks to be that I forgot to cancel my subscription, so that they charged me for another year.
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Mister Zero
Synergy Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:03:00 -
[238]
It seems obvious that no one at CCP in a position to do any real change is reading this or taking note.
EVE is crippled and it will take real change to fix it - not some lame patch or extended DT. Sure, expansions are cool, but only if they're playable! New content is pointless until the *serious* issues have been addressed in a real way.
Enough with the band-aids!!!
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:44:00 -
[239]
But guys! Freighters drop loot now! (actually that's a pretty decent change but WTH why don't they fix this damn client bug that's pretty much nuked fleet combat that used to be playable).
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.04.18 13:00:00 -
[240]
Use to be playable if you were lucky, now you have to be very very lucky.
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