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Saille Horo'Sha
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
6
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Posted - 2017.01.15 06:44:06 -
[1] - Quote
To the lads and lasses on the frontlines of Empire Space; Do you consider those who up and move on out to NullSec, from civilian workers to ship crews to capsuleers, to be traitors to your Empire?
And to NullSeccers like myself; Do you FEEL like a traitor to the nation you grew up in, and who gave you your first ship?
It's been a question niggling at the back of my mind for a while, brought right to the fore with all the 'property management' I've been involved with in Perimeter and the surrounding systems. I mean, the State trained me up to the point I was a fully-fledged capsuleer. Within a few hours of that I was past the border and unpacking my bags aboard the Beanstar amongst Amarr, Minmatar and even Gallente.
Now, I hardly think the military lifestyle would suit little old me. No matter what gets said here, I doubt that I'll go running off to the nearest recruitment office with a heart full of spunky patriotism. But it would be nice to know I won't be getting too many dirty looks from the Caldari patrols whenever the Gobfather wills us back to HiSec.
I barely have the ISK to keep myself flying. I'm a terrible pilot. I'm an even worse businesswoman. I'm not even sure what half my ship's controls are for. But in some small way, I'm helping. And I couldn't be happier.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3016
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Posted - 2017.01.15 07:09:25 -
[2] - Quote
Those, who run from the service to NullSec? No, they aren't traitors unless they attack Caldari State, our militia, our assets or our allies, would it be by a word or action.
While they simply run to lawless space to enjoy company of pirates they don't commit anything that constitutes treason. They are just deserters. While the traitors shall be sought around and eliminated, deserters are just low life in whom, I believe, the State does not have further interest, just like they don't have interest in us anymore.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Tsao Aubbes
Imperial Mining Incorporated Brothers of Tangra
26
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Posted - 2017.01.15 07:18:13 -
[3] - Quote
When it comes down to it.. I don't really think I'm a traitor. I.. can't really pin down why I moved to nullsec. I'm spending more and more time each day shooting rogue drones, and I think that's what I'm gonna keep doing. In a way, I think I'm helping clean up the mess we made. But.. maybe that's just an excuse.. I'm not really sure.
Drone Region Resident - ORE Fangirl
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Merchant Rova
Pathway to the Next
168
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Posted - 2017.01.15 07:23:35 -
[4] - Quote
I'm probably considered a traitor to the empire, or something like that. Dunno. But, and I know you were asking about null, but I don't feel like a traitor for living in wormhole space. It's just a different lifestyle, and the militia wars are stupid to say the least.
Glory to Bob
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Yebo Lakatosh
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
16
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Posted - 2017.01.15 08:15:05 -
[5] - Quote
The best way to serve the Republic is dyin' over n' over on the frontlines. For some folks. Others have other ideas that may or not help the betterment o' their people in the future. But if a hundred falls to corruption, temptation, cowardice, comfort, power n' such, while one achieves greatness n' still rememberin' where he came from, it did worth it.
Wotever I do, it's ultimately fo' me people. Tis none of them business wot I do fo' that end n' where. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1888
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Posted - 2017.01.15 11:28:30 -
[6] - Quote
I had already completed my contract terms with the Republic military. As long as I am not turning my ships and weapons against the Republic and her allies, what I do is none of their business.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
222
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Posted - 2017.01.15 11:33:43 -
[7] - Quote
Null Seccer's as traitors? No. Not for the most part. Though I find Republic trained pilots that run off to join groups like CVA or their immediate renter allies objectionable.
What I do find irksome is the problem some have in leaving NBSI behind them in null sec. Carrying that frame of mind down into low sec and, to a lesser extent, high is not helpful.
Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1734
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:56:28 -
[8] - Quote
As someone who's done both, absolutely not for either question. Though I also feel everyone in the TLF (don't really care if the others do this) should do some form of nullsec combat so that they expand their skillset. They are two different forms of combat and should be treated that way. Anyone looking to improve their skills shouldn't ignore one aspect of combat over another. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2906
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Posted - 2017.01.15 16:26:36 -
[9] - Quote
Not all of us got our wings through a military program or in an environment that fosters compulsory services. As an alumnus of Pator Tech School, my education and certification was paid for by my Clan's pooled resources. As soon as I could, I began paying that loan back, with interest. That meant following the money. By the time I left the State for Anoikis, I'd already repayed the initial outlay three or four times over. (We do kind of make a ridiculous amount of money once we get going.)
Through my time in J-space, and on into my career in null, I've continued to send money back, which I at least have to presume is being funneled into the Republic's economy. So... no, I really don't feel like I'm a traitor. If my Tribe needs me, they'll tell me. Until then, I'm building up a network of contacts, working with very talented individuals, and learning as much as I can.
And, you know, getting a nice little nest egg of my own. |
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
306
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Posted - 2017.01.15 16:52:50 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, unless they're sending a lot of ISK home or plan to use the expertise they gather in nullsec to help their people. |
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
435
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Posted - 2017.01.15 17:07:23 -
[11] - Quote
No, for a number of reasons.
First, existentially, each of us has the obligation of choice. We decide what is, and is not, worth our time. And the experiences of one individual that have bound them closely to their nationality are not the same as someone who has been driven away, or decided to move away, from theirs. That measure of morality is a thousand shades of grey, and applying any one scale is ludicrous for the simple fact that we are all individuals, and everyone has a point of no return.
Second, legally, the notion that our origin shapes our future ends the instant we become independent capsuleers. There are no laws that keep us where we began. And thus, legally, we're free to do as we will, accepting the consequences.
Third, is a more nebulous moral view, which starts and ends with the question "Whose good really matters more?". Is it more important to grease a governments wheels with ISK? Or does some **** poor settlement in null need you more? For many, admittedly, this last point really is moot, but even the most amoral pirate has some positive effect when they dump stolen goods onto the market that someone else really didn't need.
Personally, I'll stand for the State if needed. It isn't needed at this time. I have my own agenda otherwise.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
729
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Posted - 2017.01.16 00:46:11 -
[12] - Quote
Frankly, it's not like the militia should be consider more loyal to their faction than nullseccers. The Pendulum War is really just a way to keep us occupied in lowsec while giving the most militant baseliners on both side a place to trade bloody noses. Wait, I meant sacrifice their lives in a blaze of misplaced loyalty. Not that I'm against it. I think it's a quite wonderful setup that certainly is better than the alternative. Peace is unsustainable; war can last forever. But don't misattribute loyalty to where it is not.
~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~
"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn."
-Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
1523
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Posted - 2017.01.16 06:13:14 -
[13] - Quote
There's a lot of pilots that live in Hisec doing contract work who's loyalty only really extends to convenience of location and the paycheque. Much the same can be said of the glut of the militias lists of pilots. Conflating whom one works for and where with true loyalty to a given Nation is a fool's game.
Also, why is this so Nullsec centric? What about Anoikis dwellers?
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Saille Horo'Sha
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
7
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Posted - 2017.01.16 06:25:28 -
[14] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:There's a lot of pilots that live in Hisec doing contract work who's loyalty only really extends to convenience of location and the paycheque. Much the same can be said of the glut of the militias lists of pilots. Conflating whom one works for and where with true loyalty to a given Nation is a fool's game.
Also, why is this so Nullsec centric? What about Anoikis dwellers?
Could extend it to anyone outside of empire space, really. I just asked about NullSec in particular since that's where I'm at.
I barely have the ISK to keep myself flying. I'm a terrible pilot. I'm an even worse businesswoman. I'm not even sure what half my ship's controls are for. But in some small way, I'm helping. And I couldn't be happier.
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Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
871
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Posted - 2017.01.16 10:02:07 -
[15] - Quote
Nothing upsets me more than those silly Nullsec people underestimating the importance of the conflict of the borders! |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
1524
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Posted - 2017.01.16 10:54:44 -
[16] - Quote
Enlighten me on the importance beyond more arms sales and a pressure valve. Last I checked, the various national navies were able to conduct operations unmolested in so called 'occupied' space of the 'enemy'. Both the Amarr Empire and the Caldari State have had recent examples.
I also fail to see where any 'side' has capitalised on taking the entirety of the warzone beyond a shiny medal and a verbal pat on the back for the participants.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
871
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Posted - 2017.01.16 12:55:06 -
[17] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Enlighten me on the importance beyond more arms sales and a pressure valve.
Nope, that's pretty much it! We live in a war economy after all! But it's important nonetheless!
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
150
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Posted - 2017.01.16 14:07:26 -
[18] - Quote
I was born out in curse, I owe absolutely nothing to the republic and have spent my time since becoming a capsuleer as a nomad, I rarely spend more than a week or two in any one place. That being said I also try to keep on at least cordial terms with all of the empires, having navy forces trying to shoot me on site is counter productive to my lifestyle. I personally don't understand why anyone would willingly bind themselves to any empire, not all chains are made of metal and chems. |
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
287
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Posted - 2017.01.16 17:10:36 -
[19] - Quote
I may have been born within the borders of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime but I've never really felt any loyalty towards the Federation.
The concept of the nation-state is outdated. The founding members of the Federation recognized this during the first union period, which was considered a post-nationalist coalition where the individual members had far more independence then they do today. Each subsequent union served to centralize power more and more into the hands of the Gallente and as a result the Federation is like a distorted reflection of the intent of it's founders, it has evolved into a war-like nationalist bureaucracy.
In any case, I have not lived in the Federation in some time. I am now located in Syndicate space among the exiled Intaki. I don't know if I would be considered a traitor, but I have been known to engage militia members engaged in military action in Intaki space. |
Sinjin Mokk
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1125
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Posted - 2017.01.16 17:29:03 -
[20] - Quote
I agree with the above. The concept of nations is outdated. We walk among the stars in an infinite universe.
It's all about control. To those who would try to control us, we are traitors. See my recent post for evidence of this.
For those of us who understand the concept of living out in the vast, we know that borders are an imaginary construct on a star chart. Cut those chains of control and there is nothing a person cannot accomplish.
"Angels live, they never die,
Apart from us, behind the sky.
They're fading souls who've turned to ice,
So ashen white in paradise."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Tyrathlion Interstellar Rote Kapelle
6992
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Posted - 2017.01.16 18:43:45 -
[21] - Quote
The idea that someone's job can determine their loyalty to an organisation seldom makes any sense outside the Caldari State, of course, where who you work for IS your nationality. A job is a job, and most people take a job because they need to work in order to pay the bills. Which job they take is usually determined by their qualifications and skill-set. Who they take it with is very dependent on the individuals priorities - and it is here that you can see actual value systems at work, if you drill down.
There are plenty of Militia pilots who signed on for a tour because they wanted to serve their country and they didn't want to do it running missions from agents - that bizzare industry of murderous responses to inflated threats and strange conspiracy theories.
As we age, most capsuleers acquire a hard-bitten cynicism about causes, however, and many of the older militia pilots no longer serve their original nations - plying their skillset in the most advantageous way to themselves. Those people can't be said to be inherently more loyal than even even the most savage nullseccer. Capsuleers being capsuleers, of course, many militia pilots come to this mercenary phase by skipping over the intiial loyalist phase - never once serving out of patriotism.
Some corporations in nullsec maintain their ties to one of the nations. Planting a loyalist flag in space that was never owned by that nation is a good way of demonstrating loyalty to that nation, and certain organisations of this type have even been officially recognised by the nation in question. Other pilots in nullsec live and work in that region on 'deployments' and return to the cultural bosom of their nation between those deployments - returning to family and friends, making contributions to charities and maintaining their cultural ties and identities. Not quite Loyalists, anymore, but identifiably still belonging to their nations. I'd argue that those pilots should still be counted with the Loyalists as being 'Caldari', 'Amarrian', 'Matari' or 'Gallente'.
Then there are those who have been out there long enough that those cultural ties have atrophied to the point where they are little more than habits. Those who form new nations beyond the fringe of the settled nations. Those who spurn the whole concept of nations - warbands, crews and staff.
Personally I've always viewed such groups as being inferior to Nation states. They are as ephemeral as the ancient bands - forming around leaders or causes, persisting for a time and then breaking up and moving on to new leaders and new causes. Some of these pilots are true believers and will passionately argue that a few routines, memes and in-jokes are the equal to millennia of cultural development. Some are simply in it for the ability to sate their appetites for treasure, blood and the ability to carve out some territory where they can make the rules.
Generally speaking, though, anyone can be a Loyalist - all you have to do is to be Loyal. That doesn't mean you have to wear a uniform as much as it means identifying yourself as a member of a nation and putting the needs of that nation before your own needs, from time to time. Very few nations demand that you take vows of celibacy and poverty. Most demand that you contribute - so find a way to contribute and hold your head up high.
And the void to anyone who tells you that you're 'No true X'.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2911
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Posted - 2017.01.16 20:25:32 -
[22] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: And the void to anyone who tells you that you're 'No true X'.
No true X would use X! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Tyrathlion Interstellar Rote Kapelle
6994
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Posted - 2017.01.16 22:03:12 -
[23] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: And the void to anyone who tells you that you're 'No true X'.
No true X would use X!
To the void with you!
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1090
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Posted - 2017.01.16 23:20:34 -
[24] - Quote
A traitor? Well... yes, I sort of am. I am not with my people and I'm not fighting for them in our space. There's a lot of excuses thrown around to justify going your own way in this thread, but there's no getting around the fact that this is exactly what we're doing. Some mental acrobatics aren't going to change that out here in nullsec or Weird Space we are exactly what we appear to be. Slaughtering each other's crews for space, bloodlust or money while benefiting our own people pretty much exactly sod all.
There's no point trying to pretend we're justified in these things. Just nut up and be honest that we're doing these things for our own reasons and that we've largely abandoned our people and home in the process. That some of us might potentially benefit them eventually is of course a possibility, but that frankly does not count.
We've left them behind.
However, I can tell you why that is, for what I suspect - but of course can't prove - is a significant number of us: There's no real alternative. You can go pretend you're something other than a gladiator in a pendulum bloodsport over in the militias or maybe do agent work shedding what I'm sure are actual freighterloads of blood, but neither of those actually achieve anything. You can go manufacture countless ships, modules, ammunition or whatever else and pay some taxes, and yet that all goes to other capsuleers. There is, in fact, so very little you actually can do for your people as a capsuleer this side of funneling ISK into baseliner economies that it's downright ridiculous.
We capsuleers are in a system where we've been surgically cut off from actually being able to affect and aid our nations or people, to the point where 'loyalists' fervently pretend they can affect something other than other capsuleers just to avoid having to face that truth.
Anyone who actually knows me should be well aware that I only have two real priorities in my life. My people among the Gripdjur and my people still chained in the Empire. And through CONCORD and other such means of control, my very own nation has bound me and the rest of you so we can't do anything for them outside of illegally funneling funds to an economy that isn't ours.
We have left our nations and people behind because we have all the power in New Eden and no one but each other to use it against. So here we are, honing our skills, fighting each other out in the void over space, blood, money and pride. And some of us... I wonder just how many... are simply biding our time for when the day comes we actually can affect some change.
What else happens when you're so cleanly cut off from mattering to your own? |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
905
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Posted - 2017.01.16 23:50:44 -
[25] - Quote
Moved out to null a couple of times. I don't think that I am a traitor, or a deserter(as Kim suggested), it was a learning experience and nothing more then that. I had some fun out there, shot down a couple of carriers, and enjoyed a couple of months learning how to avoid drag bubbles.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Rook Moray
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
201
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Posted - 2017.01.19 01:28:26 -
[26] - Quote
Nah. Not me.
I mean, if people in Intaki ever got back to really trying to kick the Federation (and the State) out, then yeah I suppose I'd earn the title on a Federal level. But I'm Guristas through and through. **ck politics in the ear. I like where I'm at nowadays.
GÇ£When you want to know how things really work, study them when they're coming apart.GÇ¥ -Guristas Proverb.
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Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
235
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Posted - 2017.01.21 16:10:47 -
[27] - Quote
One doesn't have to be a Crusader to be Amarr.
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Kalaratiri
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
839
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Posted - 2017.01.21 18:10:34 -
[28] - Quote
I'm almost certainly considered a traitor.
My Capsuleer career began in Gradient, an old and long term ally of the Republic. Then a few Minmatar Militia groups with personal friends. My first four years as a Capsuleer was spent in either direct of indirect service of the Republic and the Tribes.
Then I stopped.
I spent time in Curse and Metropolis with the Angels. This is where my eyes were opened.
I spent a year in the Amarr Militia with PYRE, and was present for the Amarr victory over every system in the Warzone. This is where I joined the Cartel and truly left the Nation of my birth behind.
Since leaving PYRE, I've roamed around various pirate groups and now find myself at home in Hard Knocks.
I like it here. It's quiet in wormholes.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. - CCP Falcon
I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
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Torii Adore
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2017.01.24 22:09:23 -
[29] - Quote
Um...no.
At lest not yet?
I don't have any particular treachery on my item-action list at the moment.
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LouHodo
Lynchpin Limitations LLC
5
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Posted - 2017.01.25 20:35:56 -
[30] - Quote
I consider myself to be a space age privateer, much like my fellow capsuleers. We no longer work for a set government, we put in our time early in our careers paying back the institution that gives us our start, but after that we are on our own. Most of us make a decent life for ourselves, others like myself, struggle from job to job.
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