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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5779
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Posted - 2017.01.26 05:56:41 -
[61] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Then at least state which ship should be allowed to run cynos since it is a hugely important point.
I thought something like command destroyers, maybe more tanky and a bit faster. As I stated I don't want people to stop hotdropping or make it so useless that it will be practically unusable. You should be able to do everything you do now but with only one class/role ship. So definately something tanky and fast, able to reach a battlefield fast enough to provide capital support. So you expect corp/alliance logistics to source multiple command destroyer + alts skilled into it to move stuff around? Have you ever run logistics for any size of corp/alliance to have an idea what this mean for them and by association, any line member fed by those jump freighter services? You also expect a 0 velocity DD hull to withstand any kind of pressure long enough for people to be able to click jump, let alone setup a bridge and then clicking the titan and selecting jump? Any bait with a dedicated **** would be absolutely impossible to miss since those whip would have the "cyno ship" label attached to them. Your idea of having the cyno ship in another system waiting means you might as well make a log-off trap because of the system jump + align + warp + deceleration + cyno up + jump time delay will be too long to be usable.
My guess is if this change were made everyone would soon have a "Cyno Ship" overview setting in short order so they can shoot the **** out of such ships quickly and easily.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5779
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Posted - 2017.01.26 05:58:47 -
[62] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:oh cool so now on top of fuel costs i need to spend about 80mil on a suicide command dessi any time i need to move goods
So let me understand, earlier in the topic you're saying that eve shouldn't be fair, sudden spaceships, bla bla...now you want things to be easy and fair for you ? How convenient. Again mate, you have no idea what you're talking about, really. a JF pilot's job is already hard man. you know you and your alliance uses logistics too right? you wanna make thier hauling life even more PITA?
No kidding.
Sorry guys, logistics are down until our cyno chains can all train into command destroyers and we can move the required assests into position. Oh...and the price of everything just went up since we can't use t1 frigs and noob ships anymore.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3058
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Posted - 2017.01.26 13:36:13 -
[63] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:oh cool so now on top of fuel costs i need to spend about 80mil on a suicide command dessi any time i need to move goods
So let me understand, earlier in the topic you're saying that eve shouldn't be fair, sudden spaceships, bla bla...now you want things to be easy and fair for you ? How convenient. Again mate, you have no idea what you're talking about, really. a JF pilot's job is already hard man. you know you and your alliance uses logistics too right? you wanna make thier hauling life even more PITA? No kidding. Sorry guys, logistics are down until our cyno chains can all train into command destroyers and we can move the required assests into position. Oh...and the price of everything just went up since we can't use t1 frigs and noob ships anymore.
Moving a non negligible amount of T2 ships because you always need replacement since some people like shooting random cyno, especially if they now come with a 80 mill KM, are kinda common. |
Havenard
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
36
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Posted - 2017.01.26 15:15:06 -
[64] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:[quote=Havenard]Converselycynos are probably the best tool for harassing well set up alliances in their own space
Yes. but at least the defender can use a cyno to call in their fleet aswell, since everyone can use them.
It would only be unbalanced if they couldn't. |
Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.27 09:10:56 -
[65] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:
...
Can you tell if someone has a cyno on his ship ? (You'll probably laugh and say, yeah everybody has a Cyno nowadays)
But no, seriously. Can you ? The game doesn't provide you with the basic intel so that you can make a pondered decision.
Sure through the years some ships have been unofficially elected as Cyno ships, it's more likely you're getting hotdropped from a Phobos than a Rupture for sure. But why does it have to be a gamble everytime ?
Is it a gamble when you're fighting a Bhaalgorn or a Falcon or a Vindi? No, because you can imagine what's going to happen. (You're getting hotdropped, AH!)
Jokes asides, I strongly believe we finally need a role ship for Cynos. Now more than ever as capitals are very common, as there are more newbros and most importantly to keep the subcap pvp healthy, which is the core of this game.
This is a point I hesitated to bring up this year the way your frame it from my CSM campaign, but I share the same opinion that cynos are over-powered.
In fact they directly participate to shape the game as it is, with the domination of blobs and N+1 even with the recent changes from Aegis.
Instead of the very controversial suggestion of changing the cynos, which is going to be shut down by all players groups benefiting from them (i.e.e the power groups), I only suggested in my campaign making bridging ship forced to bridge at the end of a cyno as a drawback to the efficiency of instantaneous teleportaion of numerous ships.
But as you brought up this subject, here here are some other thoughts I have had on the subject - Make cyno inhibitors easier to use, for example by allowing to scoop them back and increasing the range to the full grid. - Have cynos visble on each ship models when fitted - Make cynos prevent nullification - create a ship class or a module only available for certain ships able to interrupt cynos defensively in the middle, and stagger the bridging to one ship per second ...
Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
Candidate for CSM XII
Check our Minarchist Space Project!
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5210
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Posted - 2017.01.27 14:18:16 -
[66] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote: ...
Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
I'm going to have to stop you right there and ask how in the hell you expect small groups to do what they have been doing for literally years and using hotdrops and blops to gank unsuspecting, isolated or just plain stupid members of large groups if they can't cyno stuff in without losing their bridging ship?
Why would restricting cynos to ONLY the big groups hurt us in any way? You're asking for it to be significantly harder to hit exactly the kinds of targets small groups love to drop on, can you not see that? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3593
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Posted - 2017.01.27 14:26:42 -
[67] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:
...
Can you tell if someone has a cyno on his ship ? (You'll probably laugh and say, yeah everybody has a Cyno nowadays)
But no, seriously. Can you ? The game doesn't provide you with the basic intel so that you can make a pondered decision.
Sure through the years some ships have been unofficially elected as Cyno ships, it's more likely you're getting hotdropped from a Phobos than a Rupture for sure. But why does it have to be a gamble everytime ?
Is it a gamble when you're fighting a Bhaalgorn or a Falcon or a Vindi? No, because you can imagine what's going to happen. (You're getting hotdropped, AH!)
Jokes asides, I strongly believe we finally need a role ship for Cynos. Now more than ever as capitals are very common, as there are more newbros and most importantly to keep the subcap pvp healthy, which is the core of this game.
This is a point I hesitated to bring up this year the way your frame it from my CSM campaign, but I share the same opinion that cynos are over-powered. In fact they directly participate to shape the game as it is, with the domination of blobs and N+1 even with the recent changes from Aegis. Instead of the very controversial suggestion of changing the cynos, which is going to be shut down by all players groups benefiting from them (i.e.e the power groups), I only suggested in my campaign making bridging ship forced to bridge at the end of a cyno as a drawback to the efficiency of instantaneous teleportaion of numerous ships. But as you brought up this subject, here here are some other thoughts I have had on the subject - Make cyno inhibitors easier to use, for example by allowing to scoop them back and increasing the range to the full grid. - Have cynos visble on each ship models when fitted - Make cynos prevent nullification - create a ship class or a module only available for certain ships able to interrupt cynos defensively in the middle, and stagger the bridging to one ship per second ... Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
As already stated much like with any restriction you hurt the abulity of small groups to use this tool while simply making it a little more inconvenient for large ones.
Cynos visible on the ship? No way your ever baiting again Cynos prevent nullification? Well there went the only chance a small group has to slip past the camp of a larger one Only one ship per second pet bridge? Well good thing those larger groups can manage to feild more cynos/bridges.
The only thing I have seen along these lines that may work is a ship specific mod that can stop a targeted ship from lighting a standared cyno. It would not stop one already lit.
BLOPS Hauler
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.27 18:36:08 -
[68] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Borat Guereen wrote: ...
Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
I'm going to have to stop you right there and ask how in the hell you expect small groups to do what they have been doing for literally years and using hotdrops and blops to gank unsuspecting, isolated or just plain stupid members of large groups if they can't cyno stuff in without losing their bridging ship? Why would restricting cynos to ONLY the big groups hurt us in any way? You're asking for it to be significantly harder to hit exactly the kinds of targets small groups love to drop on, can you not see that?
Why would they lose their bridging ship if they know it is going to jump at the end of the cyno? Cyno ships will be simply combat ships and tanked appropriately. I have seen small groups jump their bridging ships once they finished the bridge. I often do it myself. I do not believe there is a standard small group doctrine that says "do not jump the bridging ship"? whay would you keep a combat DPS ship out of a fight if you already have a low number of pilots?
Obviously I am not the only one thinking cynos affect disporportionately solo players and smaller groups.
My point is that in large groups rigth now, cyno ships are alts of the top leadership/FC. These are not roles that are given to a large number of players, and as such the larger groups benefit from having large numbers available to cyno around while minimizing their risks managing the cynos with trusted alts. More cynos would require opening them up to more mistakes, decisions about cyno ships commitment especially when trhrowing titans around instead of keeping them safely in poses or tether ranges.
The largest battles in Eve have been triggered by jumping instead of bridging. So I do not think why a discussion about jumping cyno ships at the end of a bridge would be bad. May be it it is time for the large groups to commit their big ships and risk them doing a powerful maneuver of teleporting instantaneously their forces from one system to another, instead of being carebears with those assets. Again, small groups often do not have the choice if they want DPS but to jump the bridging ship too...
Candidate for CSM XII
Check our Minarchist Space Project!
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3600
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Posted - 2017.01.27 18:44:08 -
[69] - Quote
again you are too focused on how this effects large groups and not the far more numerous small groups. if the large groups are going to need more cyno pilots that means small groups may not be able to even reach a usable number
BLOPS Hauler
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.27 19:04:47 -
[70] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:again you are too focused on how this effects large groups and not the far more numerous small groups. if the large groups are going to need more cyno pilots that means small groups may not be able to even reach a usable number
Large groups can blob because they can teleport high amount of ships, nearly risk free, across great distances. Why did the goons ask every carrier ratter to have a cyno fit?
Guerilla warfare is based on mobility, and cyno gives extreme and certain mobility to large groups, because reinforcement in large and powerful numbers from a far away system is probably the most powerful thing that pushes us toward blobs and benefits large groups, while limiting the harassment possibilities of the smaller groups.
Smaller groups will never compete number-wise with larger groups obviously. It is the logistic of bringing ships to a fight that should be more cumbersome for larger groups.
Candidate for CSM XII
Check our Minarchist Space Project!
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3601
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Posted - 2017.01.27 19:15:37 -
[71] - Quote
1) blobs have been around since before cynoe
2) cynos are exactly how us small groups hit above our weight class so yeah if we need more numbers we will not be able to compete
3) us small groups also use them against each other something your brilliant ideas also eliminates
if you can't even try to put yourself in the shoes of small groups and can only focus on the large group play you are the last person we need in the CSM
BLOPS Hauler
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Gungnir Winder
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
189
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Posted - 2017.01.27 19:48:54 -
[72] - Quote
@Borat Guereen
Thanks for endorsing <3
@Lugh Crow-Slave
You sound like you're arguing against the removal of cynos. I don't want to remove cynos or hotdropping or put the smaller groups in disadvantage.
I just think that right now cynos don't work anymore because EVE has changed.
Back in the past there were 2 people with Titans then they became 10 then 100.
You see the problem ? Your suggestion is just buy a Titan or join a corp which has one, countercyno and gtfo because that's what you do right ?
Well it doesn't work that way.
The point of this thread is to find a compromise.
My Youtube channel-á Gungnir Winder
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3603
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Posted - 2017.01.27 19:55:29 -
[73] - Quote
see there is your problem to you guys are only thinking about the big groups i'm not even talking about Titans here I don't think many of us against this idea are. The reason i'm talking as if you are removing cynos is because for small groups your ideas do exactly that. They make cynos unusable for small groups by making them easy to spot or counter. something that is manageable if you can field several but not if you can at best field 1-2 on any given day
BLOPS Hauler
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5210
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Posted - 2017.01.27 19:59:47 -
[74] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote:
Why would they lose their bridging ship if they know it is going to jump at the end of the cyno? Cyno ships will be simply combat ships and tanked appropriately. I have seen small groups jump their bridging ships once they finished the bridge. I often do it myself. I do not believe there is a standard small group doctrine that says "do not jump the bridging ship"? whay would you keep a combat DPS ship out of a fight if you already have a low number of pilots?
Obviously I am not the only one thinking cynos affect disporportionately solo players and smaller groups.
My point is that in large groups rigth now, cyno ships are alts of the top leadership/FC. These are not roles that are given to a large number of players, and as such the larger groups benefit from having large numbers available to cyno around while minimizing their risks managing the cynos with trusted alts. More cynos would require opening them up to more mistakes, decisions about cyno ships commitment especially when trhrowing titans around instead of keeping them safely in poses or tether ranges.
The largest battles in Eve have been triggered by jumping instead of bridging. So I do not think why a discussion about jumping cyno ships at the end of a bridge would be bad. May be it it is time for the large groups to commit their big ships and risk them doing a powerful maneuver of teleporting instantaneously their forces from one system to another, instead of being carebears with those assets. Again, small groups often do not have the choice if they want DPS but to jump the bridging ship too...
Jump a titan into Delve and see how long it takes us to drown it in dictors and drop fifty supers on it's face.
Right now small groups can and do use cynos to drop on the squishy parts of big groups, like the one I am a part of, literally every single day. While you might occasionally jump the blops in to bridge people home, you're certainly not going to be doing that with a titan unless you have a deathwish, and even with a blops it's not something you want to be doing every time. Why would you throw a hundred billion ISK into hostile space without a good reason? Or even a one billion ISK blops when you're just hurling bombers at something? My stratios does virtually the same damage as my panther, and I know which I'd be more likely to risk.
You are flat out wrong about cynos in large groups. Cyno roles in a fleet are generally given to whoever happens to have one fit, not to specific alts of a handful of people. I've done it myself a couple of times.
Do you honestly think that we would be any less gung ho about throwing titans around Delve if they jumped at the end of a bridge cycle? They'd be landing within jump range of our entire capital and supercapital fleet. So would a small group trying to drop a rorqual. Guess who would come out better off in the resulting fight?
Asakai is a long, long, long way away from being the biggest battle in eve. I've been in most of the big ones, and that's literally the only major fight I can recall that started from a misclick. A single titan getting killed does happen every couple of months, but those are also not the biggest fights in eve by a huge margin.
You have members of a big group and of the small groups who fight them both telling you this idea is bad for pretty much the same reason. Does that not tell you something? |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2985
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Posted - 2017.01.27 20:00:12 -
[75] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:I believe that the term Role is what is missing in the Cyno-bullshit puzzle.
When I see a Bhaalgorn on scan, I know I'm gonna get neuted to infinity. When I see a Vindicator I know I'll probably have to deal with 1.3k+ dps. When I see(?) a Falcon I know I should logoff and go play something else until he's gone.
Well the point is that I can make choices based on the roles played by the ships. Obviously in Eve it's not always the case, maybe some guy has no neuts on his bhaalgorn or he's packing lasers on his Vindi but these are exceptions which are irrelevant right now. There are already ships with role bonuses to Cynos. They're called Force Recons, and if they show up on scan their pilot is doing it wrong.
Also, the fact that you can fit ships outside of their specified role is part of EvE being a sandbox.
How do you know that the Bhaalgorn on scan isn't part of an RR gang? The ability to perma-NOS makes RR Bhaalgorns rather appealing. They may not neut you at all.
How do you know that the Vindi on scan isn't sniper fit? Or smartbomb fit? Or, wait for it, a brick bait cyno? They may not apply any DPS to you at all, let alone 1k DPS at close range.
The problem isn't that we need more roles for ships in EvE, the problem is that you want EvE pilots to conform to your idea of what certain ships should be.
Expand your horizons and come join us in the sandbox.
-1
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
I predicted FAUXs
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Gungnir Winder
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
189
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Posted - 2017.01.27 20:18:36 -
[76] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:There are already ships with role bonuses to Cynos. They're called Force Recons, and if they show up on scan their pilot is doing it wrong. Also, the fact that you can fit ships outside of their specified role is part of EvE being a sandbox. How do you know that the Bhaalgorn on scan isn't part of an RR gang? The ability to perma-NOS makes RR Bhaalgorns rather appealing. They may not neut you at all. How do you know that the Vindi on scan isn't sniper fit? Or smartbomb fit? Or, wait for it, a brick bait cyno? They may not apply any DPS to you at all, let alone 1k DPS at close range. The problem isn't that we need more roles for ships in EvE, the problem is that you want EvE pilots to conform to your idea of what certain ships should be. Expand your horizons and come join us in the sandbox. -1
I hope you understand your post makes no sense.
To start off I've said myself that you could find a ship fitted outside its role and it's fine, again... EXTREMELY RARE exception that you brought up just for the sake of argument.
When did I say that I want EVE pilots to conform my idea of what certain ships should be ?
I never stated that.
The only thing I said is that Cynos should be reworked because they're a powerful mechanic which is favoring larger groups with bigger numbers and better wallets.
It's TOO EASY to light up a cyno and gg wp when **** is going bad. You want to ignore that it's too easy? Then stop feeding me your sandbox bullshit and say it clearly. I want to light cynos when I'm in trouble because I can and it's easy.
If we'd follow your logic then let's fit doomsdays on ceptors and play 1shot online, because lel you this sandbox and you can fit every ship like you want xdxd.
No, things need to be balanced and now it's the time since there're more caps than ever. Capitals online 2017.
My Youtube channel-á Gungnir Winder
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3610
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Posted - 2017.01.28 04:10:58 -
[77] - Quote
but that's just it by the time you are lighting the cyno the hard part is already over again getting up that fleet behind the cyno isn't all that easy and why should you not be able to turn a fight around if you are "losing".
and then we have you say ships can be fit outside their role and there are already ships who have the cyno role so what you want already seems to be solved
BLOPS Hauler
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5782
|
Posted - 2017.01.28 05:07:43 -
[78] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Borat Guereen wrote: ...
Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
I'm going to have to stop you right there and ask how in the hell you expect small groups to do what they have been doing for literally years and using hotdrops and blops to gank unsuspecting, isolated or just plain stupid members of large groups if they can't cyno stuff in without losing their bridging ship? Why would restricting cynos to ONLY the big groups hurt us in any way? You're asking for it to be significantly harder to hit exactly the kinds of targets small groups love to drop on, can you not see that?
Because he is a member of a larger group and wants to reduce his risk.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5782
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Posted - 2017.01.28 05:19:15 -
[79] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:@Borat Guereen
Thanks for endorsing <3
@Lugh Crow-Slave
You sound like you're arguing against the removal of cynos. I don't want to remove cynos or hotdropping or put the smaller groups in disadvantage.
I just think that right now cynos don't work anymore because EVE has changed.
How so? There is now fatigue and jump range nerfs. Now most people who plan on going any distance in a jump capable ship (aside from JFs) often use gates, not to mention sitting in station for periods of time to minimize the effects of fatigue.
You might have had a point back prior to fatigue when various groups could move across the universe is a very short amount of time and drop on people. You simply cannot do that now.
And you seem completely incapable of taking on Lough Crow-Slave's arguments. If this is a negative for the larger alliances/groups do you really think that smaller groups won't be even more adversely affected? If not, please explain vs. simply saying nonsense like you have been.
Quote:Back in the past there were 2 people with Titans then they became 10 then 100.
You see the problem ? Your suggestion is just buy a Titan or join a corp which has one, countercyno and gtfo because that's what you do right ?
Are you worried about the proliferation of titans or cynos? Titans are not the only ships that use cynos.
Quote:Well it doesn't work that way.
What doesn't work that way? Smaller groups use cynos. They use them for logistics and in combat. Nobody is saying, "Go buy a titan."
Quote:The point of this thread is to find a compromise.
Really? Compromise does not seem to be what you are after if we are going to rule out smaller groups doing StuffGäó in game. You know CCP tried that kind of thing with wardecs and look a the ****** state those are in.
Seriously, tell us why this won't be bad for smaller groups?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5782
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Posted - 2017.01.28 05:20:39 -
[80] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:There are already ships with role bonuses to Cynos. They're called Force Recons, and if they show up on scan their pilot is doing it wrong. Also, the fact that you can fit ships outside of their specified role is part of EvE being a sandbox. How do you know that the Bhaalgorn on scan isn't part of an RR gang? The ability to perma-NOS makes RR Bhaalgorns rather appealing. They may not neut you at all. How do you know that the Vindi on scan isn't sniper fit? Or smartbomb fit? Or, wait for it, a brick bait cyno? They may not apply any DPS to you at all, let alone 1k DPS at close range. The problem isn't that we need more roles for ships in EvE, the problem is that you want EvE pilots to conform to your idea of what certain ships should be. Expand your horizons and come join us in the sandbox. -1 I hope you understand your post makes no sense.
Made sense to me....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5783
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Posted - 2017.01.28 05:38:01 -
[81] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:
The only thing I said is that Cynos should be reworked because they're a powerful mechanic which is favoring larger groups with bigger numbers and better wallets.
Uhhhmmm... I benefit from cynos and I am not part of a large group nor is my wallet big relative to larger groups. I use them for doing industrial stuff. My typical cyno ship is a noob ship. I like it because once I put a stack of cynos and LO in a station in my cyno chain if I lose the noob ship, I just dock and viola...new cyno ship.
Now you want to take that away from me because larger groups are using the cyno to their advantage....kind of like how I am.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3614
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Posted - 2017.01.28 05:57:23 -
[82] - Quote
another way us smaller groups use Cynos is to hit larger groups ratting and mining infrastructure where it hurts. You can do this enough and completely destabilize a group many many times your size. right now we can do this using a cepter. it looks just like any innocent travel ship until the cyno goes up. If we have to have a big THIS IS A CYNO sign every intel ch in the area will light up about it. if there is a ship that can stop or drastically Nerf any cyno they will be trained as an alt by every ratter and miner and toed around with them. If you make cyno inhibs cheap or reusable they will be placed in every belt and anom
BLOPS Hauler
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:33:14 -
[83] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
You have members of a big group and of the small groups who fight them both telling you this idea is bad for pretty much the same reason. Does that not tell you something?
That just tells me that I do not agree with them. The OP does not seem too either...
Candidate for CSM XII
Check our Minarchist Space Project!
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3615
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:54:40 -
[84] - Quote
you and the op have also show to differing levels an inability to put yourselves in the position of other groups. You seem to think a small group can afford to field a blops whenever they jump. even went so far as to say you didn't even know of doctrine that didn't include using the bridge on field. and the OP can only seem to argue from the point of view of a solo pilot getting dropped on by titan bridged fleets.
BLOPS Hauler
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:55:37 -
[85] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:but that's just it by the time you are lighting the cyno the hard part is already over again getting up that fleet behind the cyno isn't all that easy and why should you not be able to turn a fight around if you are "losing".
Well, it is in fact one of the salient points that make cynos so powerful for larger groups.
This ability to turn things around by bringing reinforcements is exactly what make cynos more powerful to larger groups than it is for smaller groups that do not have access to reinforcements.
Even if the smaller group has managed to ambush another small group and kick their ass, they have no ways to prevent the group taking the beating to bring reinforcement nearly instantaneously without real counters.
Currently, the only counter is for each group to be both part of bigger groups. But small groups with reinforcements are not really small groups, they are just a subset of a large group.
Candidate for CSM XII
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:57:38 -
[86] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:
The only thing I said is that Cynos should be reworked because they're a powerful mechanic which is favoring larger groups with bigger numbers and better wallets.
Uhhhmmm... I benefit from cynos and I am not part of a large group nor is my wallet big relative to larger groups. I use them for doing industrial stuff. My typical cyno ship is a noob ship. I like it because once I put a stack of cynos and LO in a station in my cyno chain if I lose the noob ship, I just dock and viola...new cyno ship. Now you want to take that away from me because larger groups are using the cyno to their advantage....kind of like how I am.
I do not think anyone is talking about taking cynos away...
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3615
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:58:43 -
[87] - Quote
that's not even true at all and there are plenty of ways we negate or limit the use of cynos against us that are already in game. from cyno inhibs to positioning to MJFG. rather then telling us how hard we have it try spending a year in a decent small group and see how we manage just fine and how we use the same tools that give large groups advantages in some areas against them.
BLOPS Hauler
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3615
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Posted - 2017.01.28 06:59:41 -
[88] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:
The only thing I said is that Cynos should be reworked because they're a powerful mechanic which is favoring larger groups with bigger numbers and better wallets.
Uhhhmmm... I benefit from cynos and I am not part of a large group nor is my wallet big relative to larger groups. I use them for doing industrial stuff. My typical cyno ship is a noob ship. I like it because once I put a stack of cynos and LO in a station in my cyno chain if I lose the noob ship, I just dock and viola...new cyno ship. Now you want to take that away from me because larger groups are using the cyno to their advantage....kind of like how I am. I do not think anyone is talking about taking cynos away...
no you are just making them nearly unusable by all but large groups
BLOPS Hauler
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Borat Guereen
Chao3 Chao3 Alliance
84
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Posted - 2017.01.28 07:10:56 -
[89] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Borat Guereen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Gungnir Winder wrote:
The only thing I said is that Cynos should be reworked because they're a powerful mechanic which is favoring larger groups with bigger numbers and better wallets.
Uhhhmmm... I benefit from cynos and I am not part of a large group nor is my wallet big relative to larger groups. I use them for doing industrial stuff. My typical cyno ship is a noob ship. I like it because once I put a stack of cynos and LO in a station in my cyno chain if I lose the noob ship, I just dock and viola...new cyno ship. Now you want to take that away from me because larger groups are using the cyno to their advantage....kind of like how I am. I do not think anyone is talking about taking cynos away... no you are just making them nearly unusable by all but large groups
how anything that has been said would prevent you from using the cynos the way you described you do above?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5784
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Posted - 2017.01.28 07:15:19 -
[90] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote:
But as you brought up this subject, here here are some other thoughts I have had on the subject - Make cyno inhibitors easier to use, for example by allowing to scoop them back and increasing the range to the full grid. - Have cynos visble on each ship models when fitted - Make cynos prevent nullification - create a ship class or a module only available for certain ships able to interrupt cynos defensively in the middle, and stagger the bridging to one ship per second ...
Overall, I do believe cynos play too large a role in the domination of big group and their capability to project overwhelming forces, and this is a discussion I would carry forward if I were to be elected to CSM XII.
Please explain to us how larger groups would not exploit the **** out of these changes?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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