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Major Trant
Mass Collapse It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
1578
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Posted - 2017.01.25 12:51:17 -
[1] - Quote
Seems to me this skill got forgotten about and overtaken by events, thus is overdue a 're-balance'.
Currently it allows one Gas Harvester per level. This skill came into existance when no ships had any bonus' to Gas Harvesting, thus the best ship to huff gas from, was simply something with 5+ turrets. Since then the Venture and Prospect have been released, both of which have a 100% role bonus to huffing and a -5% huffing speed per Mining Frigate level. Coupled with the large ore hold, there is no reason to choose anything other than one of these ships when huffing. Even if it was just down to cost, the Venture is still the best choice.
Trouble is neither ship can fit more than two huffers. So it is pointless to train above Gas Cloud Harvesting II unless you want to go all the way to V to get the T2 Huffers, which gives a massive (effective) 50% bonus over a T1.
So my proposal is to change the skill to simply allow the fitting of Gas Harvesters at level I and instead, give a 5% improvement to yield or speed per level, so as to make levels III and IV meaningful; reduce the T2 yield so that it cancels out the new level V bonus and balance the yield of the T1 so level III gives the current returns.
This is a tier 1 skill so it is trival to train to level III to get the current yield of a T1 huffer, but with these chanages it would be meaningful to train to IV and stop, while people who wanted to go the whole way for T2 huffers would still get the same result, just not such a big jump from IV.
The big effect though would be that you could now fit up to 8 huffers on certain ships. These would actually outperform the Venture, albeit with the necessity to empty their holds a lot more regularly or jetcan mine. Currently a Venture can huff 160m3 of Gas per minute with 2 x T2 huffers and max skills. While with this proposal a Catalyst/Tornado/Rokh could huff 240m3 of Gas per minute with 8 x T2 huffers and max skills. But with their lows full of Expanded Cargoholds and rigs with cargo extenders, they would still be full in a matter of minutes. Which would require some cooperative play or multiboxing to get the maximum benifits. This would only be effective if more than 3 characters were in the huffing fleet (3 Ventures would huff the same as 2 Catalyst/Tornado/Rokhs + a hauler).
A big issue would be CPU, T1 Harvesters require 60, T2 Harvesters require 70, some of the faction ones requires as low as 26, but are expensive and only mine the same amount as the T1. A Catalyst only has 178 CPU, a Tornado = 342 and a Rokh = 780 before mods and skills. So there is going to be some hard fitting decisions to be made.
As Gas is only found in Low, Null and WH space, this proposal will result in more ganking of more expensive gas huffers. So it ticks all the boxes - sandbox flexibility, cooperative play, risk vs reward and content. Plus, shouldn't there be something else to shoot for after the Venture? Nevermind to shoot at?
My motivation: I live in a WH. I huff WH gas and I gank other huffers and the latter will be the primary effect on me. But it was the training of the level V skill for T2 huffers recently that made me realise that this skill is outdated and this proposal seems a no brainer to me. I've just tried to cover all the ways this can be used/abused. |
Rediroriad Asdorad
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
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Posted - 2017.01.25 16:00:32 -
[2] - Quote
Really solid and meaningfull idea. +1 |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3562
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Posted - 2017.01.25 16:08:11 -
[3] - Quote
you do know this idea means you will now need to get the skill to V to get the same amount of gas mined that you do know with a prospect with lvl 2 right? and 5 turret ships are still used so it is not outdated.
BLOPS Hauler
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Major Trant
Mass Collapse It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
1578
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Posted - 2017.01.25 16:38:21 -
[4] - Quote
As I implied the huffers would have to have their output adjusted to ensure the same quatities are huffed for T2 (at skill 5) and T1 at huffing skill 3. My mathes might be out, but I think that would be 8.75 for the T1 and 15 for the T2, I'll leave that to CCP to work out the exact figures and there may need to round the T1 to 8 or 9. But here are my figures:
The Prospect has the same bonus' to Gas huffing as the Venture, namely 100% yield role bonus + 5% speed per Mining Frigate.
So currently the Venture/Prospect mine: Any Gas Skill + Mining Frigate I = 2 x T1 = 40m3 per 28.5 secs = 84.2m3 per min Any Gas Skill + Mining Frigate II = 2 x T1 = 40m3 per 27.0 secs = 88.0m3 per min Any Gas Skill + Mining Frigate III = 2 x T1 = 40m3 per 25.5 secs = 94.1m3 per min Any Gas Skill + Mining Frigate IV = 2 x T1 = 40m3 per 24.0 secs = 100.0m3 per min Any Gas Skill + Mining Frigate V = 2 x T1 = 40m3 per 22.5 secs = 106.7m3 per min Or L5 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate V = 2 x T2 = 80m3 per 30.0 secs = 160.0m3 per min
Currently not possibly but 8 Huffer Rokh: L5 Gas Skill = 8 x T2 = 160m3 per 40 secs = 240.0m3 per min
With my proposal the Venture/Prospect would mine (5 of 25 possible combinations shown): L1 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate I = 2 x T1 = 35m3 per 27.0 secs = 77.7m3 per min L2 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate II = 2 x T1 = 35m3 per 24.0 secs = 87.5m3 per min L3 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate III = 2 x T1 = 35m3 per 21.0 secs = 100.0m3 per min L4 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate IV = 2 x T1 = 35m3 per 18.0 secs = 116.7m3 per min L5 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate V = 2 x T1 = 35m3 per 15.0 secs = 140.0m3 per min Or L5 Gas Skill + Mining Frigate V = 2 x T2 = 60m3 per 22.5 secs = 160.0m3 per min
8 Huffer Rokh: L5 Gas Skill = 8 x T2 = 120m3 per 30 secs = 240.0m3 per min |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3565
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Posted - 2017.01.25 16:52:31 -
[5] - Quote
but that's just it these things are balanced around the max so the 8 turret rokh would have to be put down to 160
only way to make that max higher is if it is currently thought to be balanced to low something that it certainly isn't.
this is the same crap i had to go over with the ppl that wanted tracking computers for missiles and what do you know missiles were nerfed hard when they were added
BLOPS Hauler
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Major Trant
Mass Collapse It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
1578
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Posted - 2017.01.25 17:35:13 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:but that's just it these things are balanced around the max so the 8 turret rokh would have to be put down to 160
only way to make that max higher is if it is currently thought to be balanced to low something that it certainly isn't.
this is the same crap i had to go over with the ppl that wanted tracking computers for missiles and what do you know missiles were nerfed hard when they were added I would expect people putting a 3 Rokh + Hauler operation on the line to get a better return than 4 pilots flying Ventures with no dependancies on each other. As stated Gas only exists in low, null and WH space, so these operations are going to die a lot more commonly than single Ventures with 2 built in stabs. I personally wouldn't get out of my Venture, but plenty of people would risk it and it is ridiculous to suggest that the yield of an 8 huffer Rokh should be balanced around the yield of a Venture. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3566
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Posted - 2017.01.25 17:47:59 -
[7] - Quote
but that is irrelevant far more than just gas mining is balanced around the max yield of harvesters.
unless you have a reason the max yield needs to be raised it should not be raised
BLOPS Hauler
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Major Trant
Mass Collapse It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
1579
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Posted - 2017.01.25 17:57:08 -
[8] - Quote
You are not allowing for the unproductive hauler pilot, nevermind scouts, the difficulties of putting together a multi character operation and the massive increased cost involved. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3590
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Posted - 2017.01.27 12:22:22 -
[9] - Quote
doesn't matter if the max yield goes up the amount mined will go up its exaggerated even further since you also want the current top to stay the same so even that wont compensate
BLOPS Hauler
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