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Bertok Francis
Raiju
19
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:09:31 -
[1] - Quote
I have flown a jam griffen a few times recently and as such everyone on grid seems to hate me. I have been primaried by cruisers that had other cruisers to shoot at because of it and been called names for flying it but my question is this, why do people hate ECM so much? I have landed only 2 jams on targets total and neither of them changed anything, the actual largest contribution I have made to a fight so far was having an arbitrator pull his drones out of a cruiser brawl and away from my fleets cruisers to kill me on landing before I could remember to align out. By comparison, and I have checked the numbers. The griffen with max alpha skills, meta racial jammers, tech 1 ECM strength rigs and highest named distortion amplifiers will have 7.5 jam strength, or about a 60% chance of jamming a tech one frigate (or enough to permajam a rifter because it has a scan strength of 7) A Maulus will reduce that frigates lock range by about 75%, or to well within unbonused faction scram range A crucifier will reduce it's weapon range by about 70%, IE give a light missile condor a max range of about 6 km. Or it can make it have application problems on destroyers and probably even cruisers. Or vs a gun boat can bring an omega clone sniper cormorant down to under twenty kilometers with three scripted tracking disrupters or it can just make it incapable of hitting a battleship with the other script. Target painting is not really the same thing but a couple of bonused target painters can blow a frigate up something fierce.
It gets even worse as the enemies get bigger. Imagine trying to fly a barghest with a 20 km lock range- an alpha clone maulus can do that Or the same ship where you can't apply damage to other battleships- that's the crucifier Or even just having a sig radius of a about a kilometer- this is a vigil. On the other hand an alpha clone griffin has a 1/5 chance of jamming that battleship, and you can bet that he will get a torpedo in the face the first time he tries.
I am not complaining about ECM being weak, I am just wondering why people hate it so much. As far as I can tell it's mostly a paper tiger unless you have a hundred griffens on grid; and even then it may not be as good. |
LouHodo
Lynchpin Limitations LLC
5
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:20:30 -
[2] - Quote
It is the same way with any non-straight forward combat "class". People get angry at things they dont understand or care to learn. |
Taurean Eltanin
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
85
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:22:18 -
[3] - Quote
Because there is no counter-play.
If you are sensor damped, you can close range to your opponent and still lock them, mitigating the effect of the damp.
If you are tracking disrupted, you can close range or reduce your transversal to mitigate the effects of the disruptor. In addition, many of your other offensive modules - such as your web or scram - are unaffected.
And a target painter just gives them a damage boost. It's practically not even ewar - it's like they used a midslot as a damage mod.
ECM, however, completely shuts down all your offensive modules, and nothing you can do following the successful application of ECM changes the duration or effectiveness of the ECM. It's combat by random number generation.
If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out
3884
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:23:45 -
[4] - Quote
because sitting watching yourself die because you cant lock anything is just aids, you be aswell just going afk if you are pointed and jammed
Alliance Logo Design Service
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Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
372
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Posted - 2017.01.26 16:47:14 -
[5] - Quote
People get annoyed when their ships get reduced to a floating brick, which they then have to watch die. If you cant target lock, you can't do anything else, so people get frustrated. The only counter-play is in the fitting window and a lot of people don't like that. They want to play a game where their decisions second by second in combat have an impact.
I would argue eve has far too many modules which have no counter outside of your ship fit, and that this is worst in small group PvP where you field a limited number of ships. Things like logi and ECM become mandatory, and if you don't field them you can expect to lose to someone who does. Very formulaic.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Nakovi Kitsune
New Eden People's Front Rapid Unexpected Disassembly Event
31
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:07:47 -
[6] - Quote
People primary ECM first because it is THE most dangerous ship on the field. If your DPS is jammed, you're not doing damage. If your tackler is jammed, he's not tackling. If your logi is jammed, he's not healing. You have to get those jams off the field ASAP.
The key to jamming is range. You can get that strength well over 7.5 too with the right setup. A falcon/rook perma-jamming from 50km+ is obnoxious. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
1172
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
ECM is one of those things that makes total sense in large fleet fights, a lot like the old links did.
I think the people that spit the most venom at it are the true one character/account soloers .. no offense if you're a multiboxing neckbeard.
@lunettelulu7
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
24737
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:32:10 -
[8] - Quote
It doesnt work for me as often as I would like it to work. But I like it nonetheless.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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LouHodo
Lynchpin Limitations LLC
6
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:35:10 -
[9] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:People get annoyed when their ships get reduced to a floating brick, which they then have to watch die. If you cant target lock, you can't do anything else, so people get frustrated. The only counter-play is in the fitting window and a lot of people don't like that. They want to play a game where their decisions second by second in combat have an impact.
I would argue eve has far too many modules which have no counter outside of your ship fit, and that this is worst in small group PvP where you field a limited number of ships. Things like logi and ECM become mandatory, and if you don't field them you can expect to lose to someone who does. Very formulaic.
Well like real life, if you are being jammed, kill the jammer, or just get out of its range.
Jammers in EVE are not over powered like some people think, they have a limited range, and a good sniper ship can pick them off long before they come in jam range. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
1216
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:ECM is one of those things that makes total sense in large fleet fights, a lot like the old links did. I think the people that spit the most venom at it are the true one character/account soloers .. no offense if you're a multiboxing neckbeard. I would tend to disagree with this one Lulu, in large fleet fights the opposite is true and ECM is the least useful simply due to the large number of enemy ships that can take out the jamming. That is unless ALL ships carry jammers with a high success jam cycle %. Other than that one scenario the only places it is ultimately effective is medium gangs down to small gangs where it becomes a horrendous force multiplier were jamming a single or even two ships permanently will change the outcome of a fight instantly.
Have you heard anything I've said?
You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?
That's right.
Had to end sometime.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1577
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Posted - 2017.01.26 17:45:21 -
[11] - Quote
LouHodo wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:People get annoyed when their ships get reduced to a floating brick, which they then have to watch die. If you cant target lock, you can't do anything else, so people get frustrated. The only counter-play is in the fitting window and a lot of people don't like that. They want to play a game where their decisions second by second in combat have an impact.
I would argue eve has far too many modules which have no counter outside of your ship fit, and that this is worst in small group PvP where you field a limited number of ships. Things like logi and ECM become mandatory, and if you don't field them you can expect to lose to someone who does. Very formulaic. Well like real life, if you are being jammed, kill the jammer, or just get out of its range. Jammers in EVE are not over powered like some people think, they have a limited range, and a good sniper ship can pick them off long before they come in jam range.
There are counters to ECM, but they require the right ship set up ahead of time - unless you routinely carry around a Mobile Depot and can refit on the fly, there's not much you can do about it.
The real issue is in small gang play - with my Kitsune, I can jam out four ships at a time, nearly perfectly, from 70k away. In small gang frigate warfare, this is deadly, because A) I'm not even range for them to lock me, even if they aren't jammed, and B) with a small group of 4-5 people, I've just jammed out 80-100% of their DPS.
That's the reason people don't like ECM - it's perfect in large fights, where it impacts a smaller percentage of the enemy ships, and the enemy is more likely to have ECM of their own to counter act the impact. In small gang fights, it has a totally outsized impact in terms of force multiplication.
The concept of ECM is good. I think it's the implementation that really needs to be looked at - even speaking as an ECM pilot, getting perma jammed just blows.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1377
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Posted - 2017.01.26 18:21:42 -
[12] - Quote
Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.
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mkint
1412
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:30:27 -
[13] - Quote
As said, it's bad game design. Once the person activates the module, there's nothing either person can do. As soon as the button is pushed, the game plays itself, there is no more decision making to be made. It's such an unfun mechanic the only way we as players have to respond is to punish ECM players to the point where they don't even want to fly ECM any more.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
24744
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:36:38 -
[14] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.
Some people would always want to have predictable things around. What ECM gives you, is that luck factor. It makes fights a lot more unpredictable and risky at that. Risk contributes to PvP shakes. That is also one of the reasons they should leave it as it is.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
295
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:36:40 -
[15] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:LouHodo wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:People get annoyed when their ships get reduced to a floating brick, which they then have to watch die. If you cant target lock, you can't do anything else, so people get frustrated. The only counter-play is in the fitting window and a lot of people don't like that. They want to play a game where their decisions second by second in combat have an impact.
I would argue eve has far too many modules which have no counter outside of your ship fit, and that this is worst in small group PvP where you field a limited number of ships. Things like logi and ECM become mandatory, and if you don't field them you can expect to lose to someone who does. Very formulaic. Well like real life, if you are being jammed, kill the jammer, or just get out of its range. Jammers in EVE are not over powered like some people think, they have a limited range, and a good sniper ship can pick them off long before they come in jam range. There are counters to ECM, but they require the right ship set up ahead of time - unless you routinely carry around a Mobile Depot and can refit on the fly, there's not much you can do about it. The real issue is in small gang play - with my Kitsune, I can jam out four ships at a time, nearly perfectly, from 70k away. In small gang frigate warfare, this is deadly, because A) I'm not even range for them to lock me, even if they aren't jammed, and B) with a small group of 4-5 people, I've just jammed out 80-100% of their DPS. That's the reason people don't like ECM - it's perfect in large fights, where it impacts a smaller percentage of the enemy ships, and the enemy is more likely to have ECM of their own to counter act the impact. In small gang fights, it has a totally outsized impact in terms of force multiplication. The concept of ECM is good. I think it's the implementation that really needs to be looked at - even speaking as an ECM pilot, getting perma jammed just blows.
The counterplay has gotten a lot easier tbh. since the omni sensor booster change in march. It is not so unrealistic to have a sensor booster especially on alpha ships, and then change skript if jammed. I think jamming is at an okay stage right now.
I think it was Ripard Teg who on his blog wrote that damping is actually the worst kind of E-warfare as you still think you have a chance That always stuck with me, and I think he was right on this one. The other E-warfare (target painter excluded) types are worse as they always apply, and make you helpless (not being able to lock anything constantly from damping is worse than occationally not being able to lock due to jamming)..
And let us not forget the unique piece of Lore CCP has given us in support of ECM "GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104"
Fits the New eden universe
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1578
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:37:38 -
[16] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.
That's the implementation.
The concept is removing an enemy's ability to be effective by reducing the number of ships he can actually lock - that's fine in theory, but the way it's implemented is pure shite.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1578
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:39:44 -
[17] - Quote
mkint wrote:As said, it's bad game design. Once the person activates the module, there's nothing either person can do. As soon as the button is pushed, the game plays itself, there is no more decision making to be made. It's such an unfun mechanic the only way we as players have to respond is to punish ECM players to the point where they don't even want to fly ECM any more.
And yet that's the sort of behavior that makes me enjoy flying them. If they fixed it, I'd probably quit (flying ECM, not the game). Nothing makes me smile like some space hero having an apoplectic fit in local because he can't shoot me.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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mkint
1412
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:41:58 -
[18] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:mkint wrote:As said, it's bad game design. Once the person activates the module, there's nothing either person can do. As soon as the button is pushed, the game plays itself, there is no more decision making to be made. It's such an unfun mechanic the only way we as players have to respond is to punish ECM players to the point where they don't even want to fly ECM any more. And yet that's the sort of behavior that makes me enjoy flying them. If they fixed it, I'd probably quit (flying ECM, not the game). Nothing makes me smile like some space hero having an apoplectic fit in local because he can't shoot me. I never said it was a good response. But you should still be primaried, if only so that you don't get to have fun with everyone else. Kicked out of the game, so to speak.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
24744
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:47:07 -
[19] - Quote
mkint wrote:Elenahina wrote:mkint wrote:As said, it's bad game design. Once the person activates the module, there's nothing either person can do. As soon as the button is pushed, the game plays itself, there is no more decision making to be made. It's such an unfun mechanic the only way we as players have to respond is to punish ECM players to the point where they don't even want to fly ECM any more. And yet that's the sort of behavior that makes me enjoy flying them. If they fixed it, I'd probably quit (flying ECM, not the game). Nothing makes me smile like some space hero having an apoplectic fit in local because he can't shoot me. I never said it was a good response. But you should still be primaried, if only so that you don't get to have fun with everyone else. Kicked out of the game, so to speak. And now take an ecm module and make it a bait ship. It adds complexity to gameplay, one more reason they should leave it as it is.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
3058
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Posted - 2017.01.26 19:47:24 -
[20] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.
That's the implementation. The concept is removing an enemy's ability to be effective by reducing the number of ships he can actually lock - that's fine in theory, but the way it's implemented is pure shite.
If you remove the all or nothing part of it and only make it reduce the number of lock, logi will suffer while all other role can just deal with it.
Part of the issue is, if you remove/change it, what do you replace it with since it's the only EWAR caldari has. Minmatar has web range and TP, Amarr has weapon disruption and neuts, Galente has point range and damp. Does the single EWAR vs double for all other race situation make it more acceptable for CCP? I'd be interested in hearing what they think about that. |
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1380
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Posted - 2017.01.26 20:14:19 -
[21] - Quote
The racial ewar preferences are based around each faction: The Gallente can point very far, and they have bonused damps to counter that. The Minmatar have strong sig/speed tankers, so they get bonused Webs and painters. The Amarr have powerful energy turrets, so they get bonused Neutralizers and Tracking Disruptors. The caldari have strong, modern sensors (at least lore-wise - I'm not certain this is even still the case ingame) so them having jammers makes sense. It's just that jammers are kind of terrible in small scale engagements. I'm not saying they should not have them, I've been playing this game for long enough to be somewhat frustration-resistant by now. But I will complain about them every now and then to compensate. :D |
LouHodo
Lynchpin Limitations LLC
6
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Posted - 2017.01.26 20:35:36 -
[22] - Quote
You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1580
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Posted - 2017.01.26 20:36:17 -
[23] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Elenahina wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Nah, the concept is terribad. Activate jammer, roll a die. 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: congratulations - you are now useless and there's f\\k all you can do about it.
That's the implementation. The concept is removing an enemy's ability to be effective by reducing the number of ships he can actually lock - that's fine in theory, but the way it's implemented is pure shite. If you remove the all or nothing part of it and only make it reduce the number of lock, logi will suffer while all other role can just deal with it. Part of the issue is, if you remove/change it, what do you replace it with since it's the only EWAR caldari has. Minmatar has web range and TP, Amarr has weapon disruption and neuts, Galente has point range and damp. Does the single EWAR vs double for all other race situation make it more acceptable for CCP? I'd be interested in hearing what they think about that.
I'm not sure how you'd handle it, to be honest, and still retain the uniqueness that doesn't make it feel like sensor damps 2.0
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1580
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Posted - 2017.01.26 20:37:24 -
[24] - Quote
LouHodo wrote:You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL.
Just be forewarned. You WILL be primaried.
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
And with good reason. Just expect to lose a lot of ships leaning to fly them.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Chopper Rollins
Far Beyond Triggered
1755
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Posted - 2017.01.26 21:27:13 -
[25] - Quote
Taurean Eltanin wrote:Because there is no counter-play.
Keep range, quickly set drones on em but most of all: fit against ECM.
There's no doubting that ECM tears are the very sweetest, most precious of all.
If people primary you for the ship you're flying, it's because you are dangerous, if they hate or bounty you for it, you're doing something perfectly right.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1381
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:09:24 -
[26] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Keep range like what? 80 kilometers? Then you could just as well be permajammed in most ships.
Quote:quickly set drones on em if you *have* drones, enough control range and can lock faster than a kitsune.
Quote:but most of all: fit against ECM. ECCM will decrease the chances of getting jammed, but once the jam hits - and it can still hit - you are still a brick in space. like others have said, other methods of electronic warfare don't brick you. Damps make you lock slower, or force you to come closer, or switch targets. Painters merely make you take more damage, tracking disruptors make you do less damage, but in all cases you can still do *something*.
Like I said before, ECM is a part of the game, and it works reasonably well in many situations. For some situations it's just broken, though, and there is indeed no counterplay.
Except - there's one: Bring your own jammer, and tell him to draw faster than the other guy. Doesn't work solo, and doesn't make a lot of sense for small gangs, but there's that.
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Valkin Mordirc
2680
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Posted - 2017.01.26 22:35:02 -
[27] - Quote
As any sort of Ewar pilot you should expect to be primed. You are a force multiplier and you directly threaten the structure of a comp.
ECM is particular because in small gang fights, you are more effective than in large gang fights. ECM can shut down integral parts of a small gang comp because the small gang is relying more on single pilot to provide a role. As to compared to large gangs which have multiple ships all provided the same role.
Knocking out a single oneiros, in a gang of 7 pilots in more effective than knocking out a single guardian of a chain when the 50 man fleet has two separate chains in it's comp. Just like knocking out a single oracle to mitigate the gangs DPS out put in a small gang is more effective than knocking even 5 out in a gang of 50.
ECM also removes all chances of being useful during a fight. You get completely shut down during a fight, and have to sit and wait while a time runs out, all the time watching your HP get ticked away, or listening to your gang try to fight without you.
Yeah and you could technically fit for ECM, you can be prepared but since ECM is RNG, you can sit totally get jammed out.
A few years ago, my old corp went up against a drake fleet that had a scorpion for support, we knew that they would use one, we also knew that the scorpion would warp directly from his pos 80km out. So we fitted a ship to warp away from the fight and back onto the scorpion and fitted it with two ECCM mods, he would than hold it for secondary to MWD in. The pilot landed on the scorp tackled it, and due to RNGesus, the scorpion was able to land a jam cycle and warp away before secondary tackle was able to get into position. Saving the scorpion and keeping him in the battle.
Now the fight was fun, but I still remember hearing the frustrations that was brought on. RNG took away all our plans to kill a single ship, even though we planned and prepped accordingly for it, such as fitting a ship to handled ECCM, watching and reacting to how our enemy fought. It didn't matter Random Number Generation flipped us the bird.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
149
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Posted - 2017.01.26 23:40:33 -
[28] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:because sitting watching yourself die because you cant lock anything is just aids, you be aswell just going afk if you are pointed and jammed.
I remember in one game they introduced quick time events to shake off stuns, just so the players could do _something_ about it. xD |
Chopper Rollins
Far Beyond Triggered
1756
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Posted - 2017.01.27 00:31:06 -
[29] - Quote
Confirming ECM tears are ultimate.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Rogwar Toralen
The Graduates The Initiative.
46
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Posted - 2017.01.27 02:43:14 -
[30] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:LouHodo wrote:You all are REALLY making me want to skill up E-WAR.... I suck at everything else, I maybe good at that LOL. Just be forewarned. You WILL be primaried. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. And with good reason. Just expect to lose a lot of ships leaning to fly them.
You will if you have poor jamming skills, not the right ship for the engagement and don't fly or fit it correctly. Granted you will still die at times just like any other ship when you make mistakes or just stuff happens. Properly flown and fitted ECM can be a nice force multiplier. Brawl with it along with the other ships and you often die. A good ECM pilot often operates sort of independent of the fleet actions.
I love flying ECM but hate having it done to me :)
And yes I lose ships but it's usually because I made a mistake, not because I got priimaried. Assume you will get primaried and act accordingly. Operate right on the edge or even outside of your optimal if needed.
You can also use ECM to disrupt your enemy FC's decision cycle without necessarily landing a lot of jams. |
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