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Why do people seem to hate ECM in particular of all the Ewar types?

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Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1939	Posted - 2017.01.27 02:55:42 - [31] - Quote ECM used to be a binary and with very few ways to counter. Either you get jammed or you don't. Once jammed, you can just twiddle your thumbs or double click space and etc that needs no target to live a little longer. As such, I believe that the implementation of the falloff mechanic for E-war was a step towards the right direction. Go further away from the ECM, much higher chance of ECM failing, so you can kill the jammer's mates from there. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Mephiztopheleze Laphroaig Inc. 1202	Posted - 2017.01.27 04:22:42 - [32] - Quote Lulu Lunette wrote: ECM is one of those things that makes total sense in large fleet fights, a lot like the old links did. err, nope. effective ECM pretty much requires the use of a hull with ECM bonuses. all the ECM hulls share one common trait: they're paper thin. ECM is generally best used in small-gang situations where the total effective alpha on field is manageable. In big fleet engagements, Damps or Tracking disruptors are far more useful than ECM. many fleet Machariel fits utilise utility damps or TDs. ECM boats in large fleet engagements, being high on everyone's list of favourite primary targets, simply get volleyed clean off the field the minute they show themselves. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Aiwha Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore 1213	Posted - 2017.01.27 04:38:50 - [33] - Quote pod yourself op Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 8198	Posted - 2017.01.27 05:35:14 - [34] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: because sitting watching yourself die because you cant lock anything is just aids, you be aswell just going afk if you are pointed and jammed. edit: you be aswell just going afk if a griffin is on field Pretty much this and answers like it. ECM has a binary result: either it fails, or it works. And when it works, it really works. Thus many have found themselves jammed and scrammed. Since the KM and potential loot is worth more than a bounty (or people don't really play "pirate" any more) the outcome is predictable. Were it up to meGäó I would let ships fire in "dumb mode". That is, instead of turrets pointing at targets and missiles homing, you just fire into the direction you are pointing. This would be better than nothing. I would also add a drone prioritization option so the players can program their drones against which kind of attack to focus on. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Reinhardt Kreiss TetraVaal Tactical Group 160	Posted - 2017.01.27 08:27:54 - [35] - Quote Because people don't want to have to think about a counter that doesn't improve their dps or EHP. They're happy to fit sensor boosters to whore on a kill better but they'd never think of fitting ECCM, nor do smaller groups think about bringing another counter (HML Cerb or Caracal for instance) because they're too cool for that. It's no different from people whining about being killed in high sec, we tell them "why don't you adapt then, it's not difficult" and laugh at those people. CCP changed it so any idiot could do it right now (just as they made it easy for miners to fit tank, but they still don't) and made it a sebo script and people STILL whine (just like the clueless miners, I might add).
Nana Skalski Taisaanat Kotei 24756	Posted - 2017.01.27 08:35:34 - [36] - Quote It only proves that clueless people are everywhere. Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him Osprey =ƒÜÇ GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Reinhardt Kreiss TetraVaal Tactical Group 160	Posted - 2017.01.27 08:48:05 - [37] - Quote And shouldn't be listened to.
Gulboy Mercurial Purpose Urukian Collective 50	Posted - 2017.01.27 09:19:31 - [38] - Quote I think the hate about the ECM comes from the fact that it's random, and the fact that it stops all your offensive modules (scram, point, web, etc... included) so that the target can warp off/pull range/regain cap. It just stops a whole lot of things you can do to shut down others, by random chance. All other ewars have counter options, as was stated in this discussion. ECM's counter is still chance based, which is the problem imo. To explain the hatred, I'll tell a small story: We were doing a lowsec roam in cruisers and had 3 augurors as support. We engaged a t3d/frigate fleet at a gate. The primary was one of our augurors, and he was holding out barely with overloaded reps from the remaining 2 logis. Then I got jammed from their kitsune. I had 2 sensor boosters active (be sure to overload them when the fight starts everyone), the module that supposedly counters the ecm. It just didn't work as per random chance. Bad roll of the dice. The primaried auguror fell down, but our dps had killed about 3 of their ships, so that we could tank their damage now. They disengaged a bit after I got unjammed. Now, what makes the ECM hated by a lot of people? It's the fact that if I didn't get jammed, we wouldn't have lost a single ship in that scenario. The hatred comes from the fact that I can make up this scenario in my head easily. Most of the time, you can't really blame the ewar, since it's constant. ECM is not constant. You can't really make a scenario of the fight where the enemy ewar (paint, web, scram, neut, damp, track disruption) from not working magically. You make scenarios that involve outplaying those ewar effects. You can't really outplay ECM.
Qwerty Ernaga State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2017.01.27 11:09:02 - [39] - Quote People always dislike (complain about) loss of control, be it here, in WoW (CC) or any other MMO.
Toxin Nostromo Status Unknown. Manifesto. 4	Posted - 2017.01.27 11:11:22 - [40] - Quote Short version is, ECM is a like a Cop, Parent, Wife, In-law. YouGÇÖre having fun, all of a sudden show stopper, no fun to be had. The other recons you can at least participate, ECM you canGÇÖt. You take the time and expense to bring a fight to partake in PVP, then you canGÇÖt. People are angry because even if itGÇÖs 5v1 you still brought ECM. Enough experiences like that and you wonGÇÖt bother any more. Most people when roaming take a glance at the kill board, they see ECM in their gang fights, nope. Take a look a ship kills in the last hour, ooo three ships! IGÇÖm in a battlecruiser letGÇÖs see, 2 cruisers and a falcon, Nope. If it were three cruisers I may have gone down there, now I wonGÇÖt, I set you to orange so moving forward I know not to engage. Then people complain they canGÇÖt find fights.
Chopper Rollins Far Beyond Triggered 1758	Posted - 2017.01.27 11:19:42 - [41] - Quote Toxin Nostromo wrote: ... Most people when roaming take a glance at the kill board, they see ECM in their gang fights, nope. Take a look a ship kills in the last hour, ooo three ships! IGÇÖm in a battlecruiser letGÇÖs see, 2 cruisers and a falcon, Nope. If it were three cruisers I may have gone down there, now I wonGÇÖt, I set you to orange so moving forward I know not to engage. Then people complain they canGÇÖt find fights. .....orrrrrrrrr fit ECCM and adapt to the situation. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Toxin Nostromo Status Unknown. Manifesto. 4	Posted - 2017.01.27 11:23:09 - [42] - Quote Chopper Rollins wrote: Toxin Nostromo wrote: ... Most people when roaming take a glance at the kill board, they see ECM in their gang fights, nope. Take a look a ship kills in the last hour, ooo three ships! IGÇÖm in a battlecruiser letGÇÖs see, 2 cruisers and a falcon, Nope. If it were three cruisers I may have gone down there, now I wonGÇÖt, I set you to orange so moving forward I know not to engage. Then people complain they canGÇÖt find fights. .....orrrrrrrrr fit ECCM and adapt to the situation. I suppose I could jump on the hot drop wagon as well another nail of joy right there
Nana Skalski Taisaanat Kotei 24756	Posted - 2017.01.27 11:26:10 - [43] - Quote Quote: You can't really outplay ECM. We are in fact played by the ECM. Unfair? Yes. Because life is unfair. Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him Osprey =ƒÜÇ GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Frostys Virpio Yet another corpdot. 3061	Posted - 2017.01.27 14:19:19 - [44] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Like I said before, ECM is a part of the game, and it works reasonably well in many situations. For some situations it's just broken, though, and there is indeed no counterplay. It work at the opposite end of the spectrum as alpha does. It's useless if you can't really alpha strike your target. Once you get enough to one shot a target, there is no counter play for the other side. You only have so many slots to protect yourself just like you can only ever fit so many ECCM before your ship goes from being a compromise to absolute **** fit.
P3ps1 Max Hedion University Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2017.01.27 15:32:58 - [45] - Quote Taurean Eltanin wrote: It's combat by random number generation. But you're cool with the current Hit, Smashes, Penetrate, Glance mechanic which randomly generates a variation in dps well over 30 percent.
Taurean Eltanin The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 98	Posted - 2017.01.27 15:59:27 - [46] - Quote P3ps1 Max wrote: But you're cool with the current Hit, Smashes, Penetrate, Glance mechanic which randomly generates a variation in dps well over 30 percent. Yes, for a number of reasons. First, each of those 'random' events is fairly insignificant on it's own. They also have a very fast 'period', so you very quickly head to the statistical norm, meaning the system isn't functionally random at all. ECM, on the other hand, has a massive effect when it works, and the period of the effect is long enough (as compared to the duration of a fight) that you don't really approach any meaningful 'average' during combat. Some fights may not see a single jam. Others may see you jammed from start to finish. Second, those numbers you mentioned are not purely random. I can influence those numbers mid fight by how I fly my ship. For example, if I'm scram kiting in a Tormentor, the 'keep at range' function will give my beam lasers almost perfect hits. But if my opponent has sufficient range on his weapons, I'm offering him a perfect target as well. Conversely, using the 'orbit' function will massively reduce the quality of my hits, but make my ship that much harder for my opponent to hit. If he has better tracking than me, he will apply his dps more effectively. Understanding the trade-offs, and applying that understanding to the fight, is a big part of the pvp player skill-set. Compare that to ECM. The only variable that I have any control over mid fight is the range, and that range is so long as to effectively mean abandoning the fight. ECM is actively anti-player skill. Not only is the application of ECM unaffected by player skill, the effect of ECM is to remove the opportunity for the jammed player to demonstrate player skill. If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
P3ps1 Max Hedion University Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2017.01.27 21:03:51 - [47] - Quote Taurean Eltanin wrote: P3ps1 Max wrote: But you're cool with the current Hit, Smashes, Penetrate, Glance mechanic which randomly generates a variation in dps well over 30 percent. Yes, for a number of reasons. First, each of those 'random' events is fairly insignificant on it's own. Second, those numbers you mentioned are not purely random. I can influence those numbers mid fight by how I fly my ship. 30 percent variation isn't significant lulz! You can influence Hit, smash, penetrates Etc? I think not To your points about ECM - I love it! provides awesome tears for pvp thirsty players :) fit those mids with counter measures that boost your sensors ;)
Hal Morsh Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem 574	Posted - 2017.01.27 22:47:41 - [48] - Quote So me flying a celestis once against a fleet with 2 falcons, they primaried one. I lock range damnpened the other then threw on lock speed scripts right after. Dunno if it did anything. But i'm hoping he lost his locks and had to relock everything. Of course I switched back again soon after. Being sapient can drive us mad.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 374	Posted - 2017.01.27 22:52:06 - [49] - Quote In other words the counter to ECM is to remove several mid slots from your fit, which will be filled by ECCM. So the only way to do anything against ECM is to generally gimp yourself. Compare this with any other ewar where there is still something you can do, even if not fit optimally. A previous post put the point very well, players hate losing control of their character, or at least the feeling of control. ECM removes control over everything except your ship thrusters, and most jamming boats will be faster than you anyway. A case for more AoE in EvE
Chronixx Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 0	Posted - 2017.01.27 22:57:05 - [50] - Quote ... don't mind me. The case for AoE in EvE
Taurean Eltanin The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 101	Posted - 2017.01.28 10:49:11 - [51] - Quote P3ps1 Max wrote: 30 percent variation isn't significant lulz! You can influence Hit, smash, penetrates Etc? I think not To your points about ECM - I love it! provides awesome tears for pvp thirsty players :) fit those mids with counter measures that boost your sensors ;) No, it's not as significant. It's 30% of a single volley. That is nothing like as relevant as a complete shutdown of your offensive modules for an entire ECM cycle. And if you don' think that you can influence the quality of your hits, then you must not do much turret pvp. Or you failed to pay attention when you did. It's fine that you like ECM. It's good that someone does. But the question was about why most people don't. And for most people, what I posted pretty much sums it up. If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
A8ina Cyber Naval Command Research and Development 34	Posted - 2017.01.29 00:26:30 - [52] - Quote a simple solution is to restrict the use of smart Booms at ECM specialized ships, So at least Drones can take care of them using the assign drone option.
Marcus Binchiette Pyrotech Creations 78	Posted - 2017.01.29 06:54:21 - [53] - Quote Bertok Francis wrote: I have flown a jam griffen a few times recently and as such everyone on grid seems to hate me. I have been primaried by cruisers that had other cruisers to shoot at because of it and been called names for flying it but my question is this, why do people hate ECM so much? The fact that they hate you means you are doing something good. Keep up the good work
Marcus Binchiette Pyrotech Creations 78	Posted - 2017.01.29 06:59:50 - [54] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: In other words the counter to ECM is to remove several mid slots from your fit, which will be filled by ECCM. So the only way to do anything against ECM is to generally gimp yourself. Compare this with any other ewar where there is still something you can do, even if not fit optimally. Perhaps eccm should have more of a general in fight effect? Making you harder to scan down isn't that useful. A previous post put the point very well, players hate losing control of their character, or at least the feeling of control. ECM removes control over everything except your ship thrusters, and most jamming boats will be faster than you anyway. This isn't so much of a problem as you might think. If you're running a sniper DPS fit then you will probably have Sensor Booster + Targeting Range script fitted anyway. All that need be done is switch out your Targeting Range script for ECCM script. Either that or you could switch to auto-target missiles. No changes required. Balance is fine.
Hakawai State War Academy Caldari State 44	Posted - 2017.01.29 09:20:24 - [55] - Quote This thread almost gives the impression EVE players believe in fair PvP. Change it to any other difference in ship power, numbers of ships, knowledge of game mechanics, or asymmetric PvP in general and we hear a different tune altogether. It would be quite interesting to correlate the anti-ECM whiners in this thread with the "grunting neanderthals" that provide the background static in griefing threads, but I CBA /lol. Instead I'm going to conform to the true spirit of EVE, and change my medium-term training priorities away from Logistics and towards ECM. It's probably a good thing anyway - I'd already started to suspect that as a "combat logistics" specialist the neanderthals would be calling me a carebear behind my back.
Nikea Tiber Backwater Enterprises RD 52	Posted - 2017.01.29 17:36:34 - [56] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: It's just that jammers are kind of terrible in small scale engagements. By "terrible" do you mean better? Jams are a lot stronger in smaller scale engagements, as a single jamboat can easily neutralize 2-4 enemy ships, as fleet sizes grow, alpha becomes strong enough that unjammed ships of the line can remove enemy jams in a single coordinated dps cycle. The alternative to eccm scripting is fit your missile boats with FoF missiles and get close to the offending jammer, as FoFs tend to explode on the closest hostile object to you. my other nano is a polycarb
Valkin Mordirc 2681	Posted - 2017.01.29 17:38:10 - [57] - Quote Marcus Binchiette wrote: auto-target missiles. No changes required. Balance is fine. Heh `#DeleteTheWeak`
Specia1 K State War Academy Caldari State 286	Posted - 2017.01.30 08:27:12 - [58] - Quote A simple compromise would be to reduce the duration of the jamming cycle. This would increase the chance of jamming by offering more jam cycles in a given time, but reducing the effective jam period allowing more counter-play opportunities. It also triggers defensive drones more frequently.
Alaric Faelen Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes 438	Posted - 2017.01.30 13:59:27 - [59] - Quote I fly all the EWAR types and ECM is no better or worse in my opinion. There's little difference between not being able to lock someone because of ECM or because my recons have you damped to a lock range of inches. ECM is balanced by the fact that it is an all or nothing weapon. If you don't have the right racial jammer for your target- that is a completely wasted slot (and fitting space) on your ship. You might as well be flying a partially fitted ship. But also, spreading out racial jammers to cover the 'rainbow' means you have only one for any given race. That might work against kitchen sink fleets but it's not doing much against any sort of organized doctrine. Lastly, these are soft ships, always high priority targets. I'm often blapped right off the field in a recon. So in summary, you are a paper thin snowflake that may or may not be of any value whatsoever...at least until you are primaried and podded seconds into a fight......not exactly the scourge of PvP that players make ECM out to be. Turret disruption is much the same. All or nothing. Run into a missile boat and you might as well have empty mid-slots. Everyone thinks about how frustrating it is to not be able to lock someone...but it's often more frustrating to fly EWAR and be flying what amounts to a half-fitted ship because the other guy is immune to you. In my experience, even in really large null sec fleets, ECM is not a preferred EWAR type. Damping is far and away more common and was the core of the CFC 'FYF' doctrine. Having said all that, I think ECM could use a revamp. Perhaps make it a burst effect like a smartbomb. That way it can also affect friendly ships, but those ships can fit to avoid that effect. That would make it a fleet composition decision to bring ECM. Powerful but requires every friendly to fit around having it. It would also be a hard counter to damping. Damping might bring me in close but now you're in my ECM burst range......
Remiel Pollard Shock Treatment Ministries 8753	Posted - 2017.01.31 06:28:32 - [60] - Quote Taurean Eltanin wrote: Because there is no counter-play. 1. Bullshit. Anyone making this claim has never used ECM and/or never tried to understand how it works. 2. ECM doesn't always work. It's RNG. Everything else always works. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

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