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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1476
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:17:41 -
[181] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Example A:
On Reddit, my post and view above would no doubt be mass down-voted, rather than argued on its content.
Whereas Dio's shiptoasting one-liner crap would no doubt be mass up-voted, despite the fact its a completely useless, contentless piece of garbage.
You just proved my point completely. The anti-cheat system that Reddit uses helps avoid this. You'd know about it if you actually did some research instead of making wild assumptions that you take as fact.
Then again, it wouldn't be a Salvos post if it wasn't based on wild assumptions taken as fact.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Salvos Rhoska
2058
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:25:25 -
[182] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Example A:
On Reddit, my post and view above would no doubt be mass down-voted, rather than argued on its content.
Whereas Dio's shiptoasting one-liner crap would no doubt be mass up-voted, despite the fact its a completely useless, contentless piece of garbage.
You just proved my point completely. The anti-cheat system that Reddit uses helps avoid this. You'd know about it if you actually did some research instead of making wild assumptions that you take as fact.
You are the one making the wild assumption that I dont know how Reddit works. Nice try though, albeit again, blatant hypocrisy.
On Reddit, content is not argued on its merit. It is subdued/amplified based on mob voting based on personal bias.
To the result that the turds float, whilst anything of substance that requires more than a glib oneliner in response, sinks.
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DioKahn
RedStar Inc. RedStar Inc
1
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:51:53 -
[183] - Quote
Cupcakes |
Salvos Rhoska
2058
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Posted - 2017.02.08 09:56:01 -
[184] - Quote
1) Patrician Forum Tier Content:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
On Reddit, content is not argued on its merit. It is subdued/amplified based on mob voting based on personal bias. To the result that the turds float, whilst anything of substance that requires more than a glib oneliner in response, sinks.
Its a platform for idiots that cant handle debate, and prefer the "privilege" of subduing/amplifying content based on their own bias rather than arguing its content.
Reddit is not a forum, either in a classic or modern sense of the word, where discussion is recorded, argued and debated.
Reddit is a mob arena where content is subdued/amplified by shouting, either to drown out dissenting voices or amplify your own.
2) Plebeian Reddit Tier Content:
DioKahn wrote:Cupcakes
I rest my case.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
644
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Posted - 2017.02.08 10:20:26 -
[185] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Reddit is not a forum, either in a classic or modern sense of the word, where discussion is recorded, argued and debated.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Reddit is a mob arena where content is subdued/amplified by shouting, either to drown out dissenting voices or amplify your own. Very true, and it's obvious for someone who read few reddit topics, but I think you missing the point. If you want to find all above you don't go to reddit. You must leave internet for that. Internet level of discussion is medicore at best.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Its a platform for idiots that cant handle debate, and prefer the "privilege" of subduing/amplifying content based on their own bias rather than arguing its content.
you may find that kind of people everywhere. Even here.
"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
If you need a scout mail me.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1476
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Posted - 2017.02.08 11:05:51 -
[186] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You are the one making the wild assumption that I dont know how Reddit works. Nice try though, albeit again, blatant hypocrisy.
Wrong again Salvo. You provided the evidence that you have no clue how reddit works. No assumption was necessary on my part.
Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
397
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Posted - 2017.02.08 11:32:35 -
[187] - Quote
In my opinion there's no better way to moderate than having the people vote on my comments, only thing better would be full anonymity but I can understand that's just my preference. In an anonymous and unmoderated environment people feel completely free sharing ideas and putting down bad ideas.
Mob rule sounds scary to salvos, but the mob is actually quite good at regulating itself. If presented properly even unpopular opinions will be heard, and the mantle might be taken up by others in the mob. Very similar to the witch hunt discussed earlier in the thread, where one voice started it and others joined in and supported.
Mob rule on these forums without anonymity would lead to cliques which would be bad for discussions.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
25424
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Posted - 2017.02.08 12:55:44 -
[188] - Quote
You have to do tasks to receive a fun cookie from now on.
All my fun cookies has gone to my secrit jar with "Cookies" written on it. I keep it locked and in sekrit location so nobody would take them away from me, and I can share them with those who I like most.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Salvos Rhoska
2060
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Posted - 2017.02.08 12:59:26 -
[189] - Quote
I think we can agree that this forum and Reddit are defined from each other by their differences. I think we can agree that this forum has qualities x,y,z, and Reddit has qualities a, b, c. I think we can agree which format we personally prefer is based on our own values ranging from d-w.
I disagree where you associate mobs, with "moderation".
The definition of moderation, is: "the quality of being moderate; restraint; avoidance of extremes or excesses; temperance."
A moderator is, by consent of all participants, empowered to enforce the above, by subjecting all participants to the same set of rules, inorder to enact restraint and avoidance of extremes and excesses.
Thus all voices are equal and individual, and are held to the same rules, by moderation.
In a mob, however, there is only one rule: -They who shout loudest, win. --They win, by out-shouting opposition. --The less restraint, and the more excess, the louder the voice. --The issues do not matter, only the loudest voice, does.
Thus a mob, is the antithesis of moderation.
The Ancient Greeks debated this issue extensively millennia ago in their early democratic experiments, as handed down to us especially in Plato's recounting of Socrates, and it has been an issue ever since.
If you prefer Reddit, for whatever reasons, go ahead and post there instead.
But dont kid yourself about what you are getting into, or why you are doing so.
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Josef Djugashvilis
3524
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Posted - 2017.02.08 13:13:30 -
[190] - Quote
Salvos, please, just stop posting.
This is not a signature.
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
25426
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Posted - 2017.02.08 13:15:16 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Hey Guys Thanks for the comments, it's nice to know there's still a sizeable amount of people who care about the health of the forums, for sure. We're actually in the middle of testing an entirely new forum system with the assistance of our Volunteer team, and we'll more than likely be looking to roll it out somewhere toward the summer The rollout of these forums is going to include a complete rewrite of the forum rules (relaxing quite a few of them), re-organizing our forum categories and the introduction of a new mandate for ISD in terms of how moderation is carried out, as well as a few other things that the community team will be blogging about in the not too distant future (more than likely soon after Fanfest, which happens in April). The idea will be to promote more open and direct (but civil) discussion, and give the community a more relaxed place to talk about spaceships We'll have more information in the near future <3 Keep it basic. Forums are about discussion. And pretty avatars...
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Salvos Rhoska
2060
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Posted - 2017.02.08 13:43:55 -
[192] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Salvos, please, just stop posting.
Why?
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Kaleb Mynwarra
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2017.02.08 14:03:15 -
[193] - Quote
Salvos,
You've made your position clear multiple times. We get it. You're not enthralled by Reddit and you obviously aren't happy with a great deal of the posts other people are saying here. No insult intended but you've a negative air about you. Enough to think it's intentional. I'd rather have a positive and cordial exchange. The other contributors seem to agree.
I recall you taking pride in your being Finnish and not speaking unless you've something to say. I reiterate - you've done that. The only thing you're doing now is promoting discord.
Perhaps you should create a post of your own. One that you can invite people to post things you'd like to argue about. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3526
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Posted - 2017.02.08 14:35:10 -
[194] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Salvos, please, just stop posting. Why?
Because you are behaving like a teenage brat.
Give us all a break and stop posting.
Again, it is troll posters like you which tends to lead to the heavy moderation of these forums.
Just because you can play Eve Online at the tender age of 13 does not mean that you should.
This is not a signature.
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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
293
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Posted - 2017.02.08 14:45:51 -
[195] - Quote
Lurker Lottery.
Everyone who logs into the forums during a week goes into a lottery for various prizes.
As a thank you for spending the effort
~
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Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox.
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~
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5385
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:21:36 -
[196] - Quote
I think if you improve the forums you won't need any incentives to get players to participate. I do think they need an "Alphas only" area, though.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
398
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Posted - 2017.02.08 18:48:04 -
[197] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I think if you improve the forums you won't need any incentives to get players to participate. I do think they need an "Alphas only" area, though.
I disagree on the alpha only area, it's refreshing seeing all the new blood. I also think it's good they can get in on discussions, mostly to have their perception of the game re-aligned.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18346
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Posted - 2017.02.08 19:49:29 -
[198] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I think if you improve the forums you won't need any incentives to get players to participate. I do think they need an "Alphas only" area, though. I disagree on the alpha only area, it's refreshing seeing all the new blood. I also think it's good they can get in on discussions, mostly to have their perception of the game re-aligned.
Alphas are nothing to do with what's wrong with these forums.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
5531
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Posted - 2017.02.08 21:39:55 -
[199] - Quote
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:Salvos,
You've made your position clear multiple times. We get it. You're not enthralled by Reddit and you obviously aren't happy with a great deal of the posts other people are saying here. No insult intended but you've a negative air about you. Enough to think it's intentional. I'd rather have a positive and cordial exchange. The other contributors seem to agree.
I recall you taking pride in your being Finnish and not speaking unless you've something to say. I reiterate - you've done that. The only thing you're doing now is promoting discord.
Perhaps you should create a post of your own. One that you can invite people to post things you'd like to argue about.
I understand you, I've been talking to him in another thread and eventually I've concluded that he's not a troll, rather that something happens with his way of thinking. So I've blocked him before I fall for the growing insanity of discussing with him. |
Circumstantial Evidence
371
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Posted - 2017.02.08 22:10:31 -
[200] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:I strongly disagree with statement that devs posting on other social medias is helping gather new players. Game balancing / new features introducing will be incomprehensible for non-eve players. While the second statement about game balance discussions is true, the first part is a good reason they've been posting on other platforms - outreach. Here, any simple "just being social" chatter is read mostly by players with accounts. You certainly need an account to respond, which would show some level of commitment and interest in the game. If a CCP post on other media helps catch the eye of a non-player, I think it was a good post.
Mr Mieyli wrote:it's possible that we can take the up/down vote system and improve on it. Perhaps even a blended forum where users can choose to auto hide posts with a certain number of dislikes, adjustable by tolerance of different opinions (no of dislikes). If the new system is going to include "dislike" (which was clearly opposed in the development of the current forum) this idea could help. But just adopting Reddit's post sorting options would be fine: "best" by post rating may be the default, but chronological sorting is just a click away. It just takes a little extra work. Another point Reddit has going for it is its focus on words alone: high information density; posts are separated more by indents than avatar graphics and lines. I hope EVE's new forums will make better use of screen real estate and keep graphic fluff to a minimum. |
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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
25456
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Posted - 2017.02.08 22:20:34 -
[201] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:I strongly disagree with statement that devs posting on other social medias is helping gather new players. Game balancing / new features introducing will be incomprehensible for non-eve players. While the second statement about game balance discussions is true, the first part is a good reason they've been posting on other platforms - outreach. Here, any simple "just being social" chatter is read mostly by players with accounts. You certainly need an account to respond, which would show some level of commitment and interest in the game. If a CCP post on other media helps catch the eye of a non-player, I think it was a good post. Mr Mieyli wrote:it's possible that we can take the up/down vote system and improve on it. Perhaps even a blended forum where users can choose to auto hide posts with a certain number of dislikes, adjustable by tolerance of different opinions (no of dislikes). If the new system is going to include "dislike" (which was clearly opposed in the development of the current forum) this idea could help. But just adopting Reddit's post sorting options would be fine: "best" by post rating may be the default, but chronological sorting is just a click away. It just takes a little extra work. Another point Reddit has going for it is its focus on words alone: high information density; posts are separated more by indents than avatar graphics and lines. I hope EVE's new forums will make better use of screen real estate and keep graphic fluff to a minimum. There will be no dislikes because people will make alphas to downvote every dev out here. You cant place bounties on CCP devs also.
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Kaleb Mynwarra
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2017.02.09 00:32:05 -
[202] - Quote
In my view the power of a "thumbs down" vote is on par with a "thumbs up" vote. One could conceive that either one could be flooded with votes for a multidied of causes, to include things like multi boxed / multi account voting. It's very probable that it's already happened here with just the "thumbs up " vote. Up or down the votes should be taken with a grain of salt. With that we shouldn't promote the idea that those votes should influence thread popularity. If for no other reason that there's the possibility that enough egregious votes could mar any honest assessment.
"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5396
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Posted - 2017.02.09 00:51:34 -
[203] - Quote
As far as I'm concerned they could get rid of the "like" feature too.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Salvos Rhoska
2074
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Posted - 2017.02.09 07:39:28 -
[204] - Quote
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:Salvos,
You've made your position clear multiple times. We get it. You're not enthralled by Reddit and you obviously aren't happy with a great deal of the posts other people are saying here. No insult intended but you've a negative air about you. Enough to think it's intentional. I'd rather have a positive and cordial exchange. The other contributors seem to agree.
Ive been far more cordial than most of my antagonists here in this thread. Ive also remained consistently ontopic. There are many contributors here that agree with my position.
What you may perceive as negativity, is just me being frank and direct.
Im glad my points have been made clear though, atleast to you as OP. Iro ically, even this exchange between us represents a microcosm relevant to your OP.
Different people find different things fun when it comes to forum discussion. Reddit and this board are very different systems, with different qualities.
You asked where did the fun go.
Imo, it is still here.I enjoy long, structured, thought-out content. Nothing makes me happier than logging in to find interesting threads filled with page long submissions.
Others prefer the format of Reddit. It certainly lends itself better to browsing/posting on a mobile phone, which I suspect is a significant part of its popularity.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
645
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Posted - 2017.02.09 08:13:35 -
[205] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:I strongly disagree with statement that devs posting on other social medias is helping gather new players. Game balancing / new features introducing will be incomprehensible for non-eve players. While the second statement about game balance discussions is true, the first part is a good reason they've been posting on other platforms - outreach. Here, any simple "just being social" chatter is read mostly by players with accounts. You certainly need an account to respond, which would show some level of commitment and interest in the game. If a CCP post on other media helps catch the eye of a non-player, I think it was a good post. I have nothing against devs being social in medias. I met devs on tranqility, have a little chit-chat with CCP Mimic few months go in genesis region, saw possitive reaction on my feedback few times, but outreach? Why do I care about devs posts from a game that I don't play? World is full of information today, we must filter it.
Malcanis wrote:Alphas are nothing to do with what's wrong with these forums. They don't but before Alpha/Omega forum was locked to only active characters, with F2P/Alpha change anybody who has character can post here. Good change imo.
"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
If you need a scout mail me.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18350
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Posted - 2017.02.09 10:10:35 -
[206] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:I strongly disagree with statement that devs posting on other social medias is helping gather new players. Game balancing / new features introducing will be incomprehensible for non-eve players. While the second statement about game balance discussions is true, the first part is a good reason they've been posting on other platforms - outreach. Here, any simple "just being social" chatter is read mostly by players with accounts. You certainly need an account to respond, which would show some level of commitment and interest in the game. If a CCP post on other media helps catch the eye of a non-player, I think it was a good post. Mr Mieyli wrote:it's possible that we can take the up/down vote system and improve on it. Perhaps even a blended forum where users can choose to auto hide posts with a certain number of dislikes, adjustable by tolerance of different opinions (no of dislikes). If the new system is going to include "dislike" (which was clearly opposed in the development of the current forum) this idea could help. But just adopting Reddit's post sorting options would be fine: "best" by post rating may be the default, but chronological sorting is just a click away. It just takes a little extra work. Another point Reddit has going for it is its focus on words alone: high information density; posts are separated more by indents than avatar graphics and lines. I hope EVE's new forums will make better use of screen real estate and keep graphic fluff to a minimum. There will be no dislikes because people will make alphas to downvote every dev out here. You cant place bounties on CCP devs also.
That doesn't happen on reddit, so why here?
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Salvos Rhoska
2077
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Posted - 2017.02.09 14:42:03 -
[207] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:That doesn't happen on reddit, so why here?
We all know alts are created by buttmad people and trolls for any number of purposes.
We can argue about how much, but it certainly happens. Both on Reddit and here.
But this is all beside the point: -On Reddit, content floats or sinks based on personal/mob bias. -Arguments are not won on their merit, but through voting.
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mkint
1447
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Posted - 2017.02.09 15:36:28 -
[208] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Malcanis wrote:That doesn't happen on reddit, so why here? We all know alts are created by buttmad people and trolls for any number of purposes. We can argue about how much, but it certainly happens. Both on Reddit and here. But this is all beside the point: -On Reddit, content floats or sinks based on personal/mob bias. -Arguments are not won on their merit, but through voting.
The current forums use censoring by ISDs and GMs. It's obviously not good enough, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
No, you wouldn't get censored under a reddit-like voting system, it's designed to minimize censorship. You would get censured. Difference is censorship is because people don't like your message. Censure is because people don't like YOU. And that's actually a far better thing that what we have.
And here's why you are bad at the internet: Nobody has EVER "won" an argument on the internet. Ever. The best you can do is make yourself look like a jackass. Even moreso when you think you've "won" an argument online. To argue otherwise is true just reveals yourself as a lizard person wearing a skin suit. An upvote/downvote system doesn't make anyone "win" it just sorts content by value. And yes. you are terrified of that, as you should be.
Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
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Salvos Rhoska
2077
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Posted - 2017.02.09 15:59:45 -
[209] - Quote
mkint wrote:The current forums use censoring by ISDs and GMs. It's obviously not good enough, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
Why shouldnt this thread exist? OP was entirely valid.
You are hypocritical. You state that censorship should be at a MINIMUM, yet you simultaneously claim that censuring here is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
mkint wrote:No, you wouldn't get censored under a reddit-like voting system, it's designed to minimize censorship. You would get censured. Difference is censorship is because people don't like your message. Censure is because people don't like YOU. And that's actually a far better thing that what we have.
By your own admission above, you think this thread should not exist! Yet here you are, posting in it! The hypocrisy is astounding.
Furthermore compounded by your claim by extension that this thread would NOT exist on Reddit, which means Reddit does not minimize censorship, it MAXIMIZES it, by mob bias, rather than impartial moderation and shared rules.
How can you not understand this?
mkint wrote:Censure is because people don't like YOU. And that's actually a far better thing that what we have.
Unbelievable. So you think censure should be based on LIKING someone?
mkint wrote:And here's why you are bad at the internet: Nobody has EVER "won" an argument on the internet. Ever. The best you can do is make yourself look like a jackass. Even moreso when you think you've "won" an argument online. To argue otherwise is true just reveals yourself as a lizard person wearing a skin suit. An upvote/downvote system doesn't make anyone "win" it just sorts content by value. And yes. you are terrified of that, as you should be.
Arguments are won on the internet, and throughout the world, daily. If you think you can't lose an argument, that is your problem. If you refuse to admit defeat, that is your problem. You can and do lose arguments, as you are losing them here.
Up/Down voting does NOT sort content by value, it sorts it by suppression/amplification. I can up/down vote anyone I want, whether I agree with them or not, and I dont even have to justify in text why I do so.
No matter how right you are, and how "valuable" your post, I can down vote them all, for ever, just cos "i dont like you".
Your post is categorically the most stupid and asinine nonsense I have EVER read on the internet over 25+ years. Im at a complete loss to explain how you can be so categorically wrong, hypocritical and self- defeating.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27545
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Posted - 2017.02.09 16:25:24 -
[210] - Quote
I'm going to leave this link here for the non native users of English. Censor != Censure.
ISDs censor, players censure.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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