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Seth Ruin
Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.05.18 22:22:00 -
[571]
Originally by: Rylet VanDorn Actually the answer to this is real simple, and could be easily changed in the game.
Give all cloaks a duration without auto-repeat (like scan probe launchers), rather than toggle.
Covops cloak = 15 minute activation time. Tech 2 Cloak = 10 minute activation time. Tech 1 cloak = 5 minute activation time.
That way people uncloak for as long as their re-charge time is (about 3 seconds on a covops frig) and then have to actually PRESS THE BUTTON to re-cloak.
If it's a concern, you can even give covops frigates a ship bonus providing 1000% cloak activation time.
It gets rid of AFKers, prevents a cloak from being total immunity (since you uncloak for a couple seconds, enough time to be locked), yet the module still provides the intended bonus.
Can people still sit cloaked in your space? Technically, yes. At least they can't go AFK while doing it though.
That's actually not a terrible idea in my opinion, though not perfect.
The reason I stated earlier that I am on the side of wanting some kind of anti-cloaking module is because I think of space combat as directly related to naval combat, and in my view, cloakers are like submarines. Now, of course, most naval vessels don't have the sophisticated sonar capability to detect a submarine, ever. But there are a few, specifically destroyers (one of their primary goals in World War II) and other submarines.
I'm kind-of in the middle of this debate. I wholeheartedly agree cloakers should not show up on local when cloaked. The whole point of cloaking is not to be detected! But I'd also like to see some sort of tactical way of hunting cloakers, even if it means a new skill (or set of skills), specialized modules, etc. Of course finding a cloaker should not be any easier than being a cloaker, but I still think it should be a possibility. (Maybe using destroyers as the designated ship type, as I indicated previously )
I strongly urge our cloaker friends to watch some submarine movies, such as "Run Silent Run Deep," "The Hunt for Red October," and to a lesser extent, "Down Periscope" as examples of when the hunter can become the hunted.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.19 02:25:00 -
[572]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/05/2007 02:30:32
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Stuff and......
I strongly urge our cloaker friends to watch some submarine movies, such as "Run Silent Run Deep," "The Hunt for Red October," and to a lesser extent, "Down Periscope" as examples of when the hunter can become the hunted.
First....Das Boot (film and book) blow away the above by miles (well..."Run Silent Run Deep" is a good one too ).
Your comparison is way off base. You are talking WWII class technology here. In the modern world your typical sub is considered a "hole in the ocean". As the US Navy is fond of pointing out SLBM boats are said to be able to sneak up...pork a whale...and be miles away while the whale says "WTF was that? Ouchie". Crude...but you get my drift. And certain electric boats (in particular one made in Germany) are even quieter. As in the ambient water noise is louder.
And....ever see James Kirk whine about not being able to see those evil Klingon cloakers? No....he figures out an alternative method. And so on.....
Meh...I'll leave it there. Twenty pages of point-counterpoint yak yak and not one word from CCP. Mountains from molehills....the anti-covops/recon types would have you think everyone is running around EvE impersonating a stationary Claude Raines when the reality is only a tiny percentage of covert cloak-capable pilots actually pull this tactic. I rather suspect that most-like me-log on and actually play the damn game.
Oh...and the press the button every so often to cloak idea? Think again pal....covert pilots should be forced to watch a timer (like that really well implemented jump clone timer) and potentially get stuffed on a target approach because the timer ran out? Get out of town with that. An outrageously expensive covops/recon snookered by a kitchen timer?
Bleah
Tell you what....you can have your magical region wide POS-based decloaking device if you give me a stealth bomber that can blow a hole right thru a POS shield in a single shot. Or a distance-based stront NOS....how do you like THEM apples??
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Seth Ruin
Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.05.19 16:42:00 -
[573]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/05/2007 02:30:32First....Das Boot (film and book) blow away the above by miles (well..."Run Silent Run Deep" is a good one too ).
I mostly included that line as a joke (thus the mention of "Down Periscope" )
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Your comparison is way off base . . .
I admittedly don't know that much about modern submarines, so I won't dispute anything in that section. However, I'd like to make the clichT reminder that games are not real life, and sometimes following real life as an example may not be the best course of action.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone And....ever see James Kirk whine about not being able to see those evil Klingon cloakers? No....he figures out an alternative method. And so on.....
Don't get me wrong, I love tales of ingenuity and creative problem-solving: It's what brought the human race to where we are now. However, in this particular instance we are limited by game mechanics. The only tactics that are viable against cloakers in EVE are smartbombs and bait ships, and smartbombs are only useful if you know the cloaker is in the area.
My only problem with cloakers is that they are practically invulnerable when cloaked. No other ship has such an absolute advantage.
I don't really care all that much about the particulars, but I think there should be some way of hunting down cloaked ships.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Meh...I'll leave it there. Twenty pages of point-counterpoint yak yak and not one word from CCP. Mountains from molehills....the anti-covops/recon types would have you think everyone is running around EvE impersonating a stationary Claude Raines when the reality is only a tiny percentage of covert cloak-capable pilots actually pull this tactic. I rather suspect that most-like me-log on and actually play the damn game.
I pretty much agree, we're getting nowhere and CCP doesn't care, but I can never turn down a good discussion.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Oh...and the press the button every so often to cloak idea? Think again pal....covert pilots should be forced to watch a timer (like that really well implemented jump clone timer) and potentially get stuffed on a target approach because the timer ran out? Get out of town with that. An outrageously expensive covops/recon snookered by a kitchen timer?
Well, I said it was an okay idea. However, it honestly wouldn't even stop AFK cloakers. It's not that difficult to write a script that will press X button every Y minutes.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Tell you what....you can have your magical region wide POS-based decloaking device if you give me a stealth bomber that can blow a hole right thru a POS shield in a single shot. Or a distance-based stront NOS....how do you like THEM apples??
Was this directed at me? I never implied I wanted anything that powerful. I simply think there should be some sort of way to catch a cloaker.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.19 17:23:00 -
[574]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/05/2007 17:22:39 No mate...nothing directed at you. But I do have a problem with giving cookies to alliances who already have PLENTY of cake.
If CCP decide to implement this will it be used in Empire losec as well?
Anyway...CCP have a pretty good track record in my eyes and hopefully will do the right thing here. It's not like the issue with nano's which any choad could pile on the lo-slots and zoom around. I'll emphasize the MONTHS of training and skill required to operate as a covops/recon pilot and the payoff should be to operate as they currently do.
A cloaked ship CANNOT hurt anyone directly beyond reporting or noting observable movements.
I'll leave it there. Hopefully this thread collapses under it's own wieght as it really is a non-issue...literally...nothing to see here "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.22 11:35:00 -
[575]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/05/2007 17:22:39 No mate...nothing directed at you. But I do have a problem with giving cookies to alliances who already have PLENTY of cake.
If CCP decide to implement this will it be used in Empire losec as well?
Anyway...CCP have a pretty good track record in my eyes and hopefully will do the right thing here. It's not like the issue with nano's which any choad could pile on the lo-slots and zoom around. I'll emphasize the MONTHS of training and skill required to operate as a covops/recon pilot and the payoff should be to operate as they currently do.
A cloaked ship CANNOT hurt anyone directly beyond reporting or noting observable movements.
I'll leave it there. Hopefully this thread collapses under it's own wieght as it really is a non-issue...literally...nothing to see here
as far as weve heard so far there is already cookies for alliances in the test server , who knows if they will make it to a patch ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Ozstar
Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.05.22 11:55:00 -
[576]
I think tweeks post has been the best by far, for all of you that skipped it its on the previous page.
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Zeppi
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Posted - 2007.05.22 11:55:00 -
[577]
i am a regular c ops pilot , love the ability to cloak and watch the enemy unseen , and yes ive come across pilots who are very skilled at uncloaking a fresh warp in covert ops. however those that sit there all day in afk mode at a gate cloaked should be nerfed. or we should get some kind of module that when fired uncloaks ships upto 100km kind of like a Torpedo Explosion wave. the wave would go out to 100km and uncloak anything within that range but at the same time it would disable the ability to target anything on all ships effected in its range for like 20 seconds..... just an idea but i believe this would solve a lot of arguments on both sides...what do you think devs?
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.22 14:52:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Zeppi i am a regular c ops pilot , love the ability to cloak and watch the enemy unseen , and yes ive come across pilots who are very skilled at uncloaking a fresh warp in covert ops. however those that sit there all day in afk mode at a gate cloaked should be nerfed. or we should get some kind of module that when fired uncloaks ships upto 100km kind of like a Torpedo Explosion wave. the wave would go out to 100km and uncloak anything within that range but at the same time it would disable the ability to target anything on all ships effected in its range for like 20 seconds..... just an idea but i believe this would solve a lot of arguments on both sides...what do you think devs?
so it prevents lock for 20 seconds and someone can just recloak .... best idea yet, would need some tweaking though so that 2-3 ships wouldnt be able to run it every minute or so ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Kerosene
Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.22 17:12:00 -
[579]
Either exponentially larger cap usage depending on ship class or make standard cloaks use charges imo. Leave Cov Ops cloaks as they are. __ "你能隐瞒什么? 中国人? 飞了Raven? 加入xelas !" - Latest Xelas recruitment ad |
Corporate Stooge
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Posted - 2007.05.23 18:14:00 -
[580]
Originally by: Chelone You want your little CLOAKING SHIP to be completely safe and secure, with no work on your part to be a PVP carebear.
There, fixed that part for you.
Cloaks are broken by the nature of NOT being able to find and kill one, just as titans that cyno in, DD and cyno out immediately are broken. Giving 100% of the ability to initiate fights tn one side of the battle is flawed.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.23 18:55:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Corporate Stooge Cloaks are broken by the nature of YOU knowing they're in the system by merely glancing at a freakin' CHAT TAB.
There, fixed that part for you.
Giving 100% of the ability to detect hostiles ù EVEN if they are cloaked ù is flawed. Demanding to keep that AND de-cloak them is asinine.
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Corporate Stooge
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Posted - 2007.05.23 19:16:00 -
[582]
I have no problem whatsoever with removing local. But if they do, they ought to remove the map ability to show pilots active and pilots docked.
After all, if someone is going to be that vulnerable to getting ganked the gankers should have to work to find people too.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.23 23:52:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Corporate Stooge I have no problem whatsoever with removing local. But if they do, they ought to remove the map ability to show pilots active and pilots docked.
After all, if someone is going to be that vulnerable to getting ganked the gankers should have to work to find people too.
no no no just cause you want to remove local does not mean that cloakers should get nerfed if that happens
cloakers dont deserve to get nerfed wether local gets removed or not ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
sartorii
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.24 01:17:00 -
[584]
not true at all..
if you are going to remove an 'arbitrary unexplained intel source" aka Local.
you should ALSO remove all the other arbitrary unexplained intel sources as well..
yes this means Map data...
CCP should also remove all means for hostiles to identify your name/corp/alliance unless you have some 'freq sharing plan' (or other agreement in place between your corp/alliances) even while engaged.
basically everything, anything, any information that a pilot has NO WAY to discover without the artificiality of "the map/local genie says so" should go away as well.
Hunting and Hiding should be the same long tedious search/waiting game for both sides..
if anything needs a 'nerf' its the amount of critical information Eve 'gives away for free' when there is no logical means by which a player would have that intel without a significant amount of time or labor by someone at some point (drop a probe, leave a scanner in place, something...) and that information should only stay current as long as your scan/probe persists.
No one should have any way of telling ANYTHING about a system or its contents without actually visiting/scanning/probing and that information should quickly become suspect as time passes.
"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic] |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 06:37:00 -
[585]
would that include even high sec ?
____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 07:44:00 -
[586]
Originally by: ghosttr A pos module for this purpose is already on the test server. And with the release of that module, alliance space will be safe from the near-exploit tactic of afk-cloaking. So be sure to pull your cloaked alts out of alliance space before Rev 2
1 per system.
Fixed emplacement.
10 Au range.
Must be player operated.
--------------
Method to defeat:
Make POS module overview setting, save.
Change overview setting to said pos module setting.
Scan for module. If found, locate the moon using directional scanner.
Make safespot 10 au away from said moon.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Corporate Stooge Cloaks are broken by the nature of YOU knowing they're in the system by merely glancing at a freakin' CHAT TAB.
There, fixed that part for you.
Giving 100% of the ability to detect hostiles ù EVEN if they are cloaked ù is flawed. Demanding to keep that AND de-cloak them is asinine.
Wait, cloaks are broken because they arent "completly and totaly overpowered", but only "really overpowered"?
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Am I the only one with a problem with this statement? We are talking 0.0 and someone is whining that someone "not paying attention" will fall prey to a hunter?
Nope, people not paying attention will fall prey either way. The objections[condensed] are that
1. Cloakers have a disproportionate effect on the game world.
2. Cloaks are unable to be hunted down and killed as all other ships are able to be.
3. Cloaks make 0.0 ratting/carebearing much too safe via a very easy "safe spot and cloak" technique whenever anyone unknown enters local.
--
Cloaks give whomever fits them near perfect ability to avoid combat in unfavourable circumstances. This ability is important to cloaks, but its strength is to high. Such, reasonable methods to neutralize and destroy cloaked ships need to be added to the game. Not because the targets of cloaked ships arent safe enough, but because cloaks make ships too safe.
Originally by: Corporate Stooge I have no problem whatsoever with removing local. But if they do, they ought to remove the map ability to show pilots active and pilots docked.
After all, if someone is going to be that vulnerable to getting ganked the gankers should have to work to find people too.
You wouldnt have to work all that hard, since the time required to stay in system in order to rat/mine is much longer than the time required to stay in system to hunt[2-5 minutes per system from warp in to warp out, assuming nothing found], it would be relativly easy to find targets supposing said targets existed and didnt leave due to increased risk. While it would be possible via the directional scanner to find potential gankers, this would then only extend to non-recon ships. The risk of flying in low-sec/0.0 would go from "low" to "certian death" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 07:48:00 -
[587]
Originally by: SiJira would that include even high sec ?
Likly. Physically, local makes more sense than any interstellar communication method. Ships simply carry a ident, which the gate then broadcasts to all in system.
Then again, we are talking about an internet spaceship game which spans a galaxy with ships that warp faster than the speed of light.
Such any "magical technology" explanation for about any mechanic we see isnt out of the question. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 07:53:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: SiJira would that include even high sec ?
Likly. Physically, local makes more sense than any interstellar communication method. Ships simply carry a ident, which the gate then broadcasts to all in system.
Then again, we are talking about an internet spaceship game which spans a galaxy with ships that warp faster than the speed of light.
Such any "magical technology" explanation for about any mechanic we see isnt out of the question.
ok but you really need to stop calling cloaks overpowered they are a unique component to the game and choosing when and where to fight is the exact point of them and making scan probes or some other such silly thing would in effect make them useless ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 08:15:00 -
[589]
Originally by: SiJira
ok but you really need to stop calling cloaks overpowered they are a unique component to the game and choosing when and where to fight is the exact point of them and making scan probes or some other such silly thing would in effect make them useless
Titans are a unique component to the game and choosing when and where to completly obliterate entire fleets is the exact point of them and making them not be able to do this or some other such silly thing would in effect make them useless.
There is a reason why it sounds just as stupid when applied to titans as it does when applied to cloaks. Just as titans will not be useless[meaning no use], only less usefull[meaning, still has a use, not as much as previously] when they are nerfed so will cloaks not be useless, just less usefull.
Cloaks are overpowered, whether or not they were designed in that manner is irrelevent to whether or not they are overpowered
What matters is whether or not they are overpowered, not whether or not you think they are supposed to be overpowered.
Pretty much the entire combat part of eve is choosing when and where to fight. The better you are at this, the better you can get engagements where you want and when you want, the better you PvP. Cloaks should be an advantage to this. Right now, they are a perfect advantage to this, and they take away the game from your opponents. No longer does your opponent have the ability to even attempt to choose when and where to fight.
To make a sports analogy, it would be like a game of basketball where one side always gets the ball after points have been scored. Yea, the defending team might score everyonce and a while, but its not something we would call a game. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 21:58:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Goumindong
Titans are a unique component to the game and choosing when and where to completly obliterate entire fleets is the exact point of them and making them not be able to do this or some other such silly thing would in effect make them useless.
There is a reason why it sounds just as stupid when applied to titans as it does when applied to cloaks. Just as titans will not be useless[meaning no use], only less usefull[meaning, still has a use, not as much as previously] when they are nerfed so will cloaks not be useless, just less usefull.
and thats where we disagree - you need to stop trying to sound intellectual by using your very horrible analogies and start talking directly about the issue at hand i derive fun from this game by sitting around doing nothing watching you mine as per your argument later that you lose money to protect your guys - apart from the fact that it is absurd to not have protection in 0.0 - i lose money by sitting there and doing nothing - and all you need to do is move system and you are safe from me - see bubble trap if i am not afk to make me run around as well when im not making money is asking to remove the cloak from the game - because guess what - and im at the point of praying that you get stabbed in the eye with a fork because you ignore this point every time - i am not part of any alliance - i am not part of any significant corp - and you losing money is of 0 - read that again - 0 benefit to me so just because you are too lazy to defend because of some magical isk per hour you have set for yourself does not mean that my entire gamestyle needs to be nerfed
Quote: Cloaks are overpowered, whether or not they were designed in that manner is irrelevent to whether or not they are overpowered
What matters is whether or not they are overpowered, not whether or not you think they are supposed to be overpowered.
you need to stop putting words in my mouth because i dont consider them overpowered and since you just said thats what matters then im giving you the answer - they are not
Quote:
Pretty much the entire combat part of eve is choosing when and where to fight. The better you are at this, the better you can get engagements where you want and when you want, the better you PvP. Cloaks should be an advantage to this. Right now, they are a perfect advantage to this, and they take away the game from your opponents. No longer does your opponent have the ability to even attempt to choose when and where to fight.
you have been in this thread from the beginning and you know that it isnt hard to move a system over - now you have the advantage again because you will know if the cloaker is afk or not as soon as he jumps that gate - wich you can set a trap at if you wish Quote:
To make a sports analogy, it would be like a game of basketball where one side always gets the ball after points have been scored. Yea, the defending team might score everyonce and a while, but its not something we would call a game.
i already told you to stop using stupid analogies that dont even make sense comparing to the topic at hand - but to satisfy you ill go along with this one - if you also make the team that gets the ball get four players instead of 5 it might make some sense ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 22:20:00 -
[591]
Originally by: SiJira snip
Unless you are going to point out why the analogies dont make sense, and why cloaks arent overpowered, or at least attempt to counter the arguements presented for why they are, then you should leave the thread. You arent helping to advance the discussion.
Some issues.
1. You do not lose money afking, since you are not playing the game. Any reasonable examination is going to balance in game time, and not out of game time.
2. You cannot set a bubble trap for someone who is afk. Similarly with no way to determine whether or not the cloaker in system is AFK, there is no impetus to set a bubble trap.
3. It takes a disproportionate amount of expendature to set a bubble trap for a cloaker, especialy a recon or cov-ops. Since you cannot know if they are afk, any trap must remain up much longer than for any other target.
4. To make you move position every once and a while while giving the ability to a specialized force to find and destroy you does not remove cloaks from the game. It does make cloaks less powerful. However, the core abilities are still there.
5. If anyone losing money is of zero significance to you, then why do you destroy ships? Or cloak in the first place?
6. I am not too lazy to defend because of some magical isk/hour. I am smart enough to know that defending is not valuable because of said isk/hour. The reason that cloaking should be nerfed has very little to do with the defenders, but to do with the safety that cloaking affords those who use it.
I am operating on a few base assumptions here. These are:
0.0 should not be safe, for anyone
No module or combinations of module should give anyone the ability to be perfectly safe in 0.0.
There should always be a counter to a module or combination of modules that is of reasonable expendature to pull togother.
No ship should have the ability to choose all its battles, before or after they begin.
------
You say cloaks are not overpowered. I say, that because they are an uncounterable module, becasue they allow complete safety in 0.0 space and because the ship has the ability to choose its battles, they are overpowered.
Can you tell me why these axioms are false? Can you tell me what axioms the game ought to be balanced on if not these? Can you tell me how based on any of these axioms, or said axioms that you think the game ought to be balanced on, cloaks could be balanced with current rules? Can you tell me how, based on any of these axioms, or said axioms that you think the game ought to be balanced on, cloaks would be balanced if there was no local chat?
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:01:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: SiJira snip
Unless you are going to point out why the analogies dont make sense, and why cloaks arent overpowered, or at least attempt to counter the arguements presented for why they are, then you should leave the thread. You arent helping to advance the discussion.
you do realize that if we were actually talking this is the point where i start swearing right ? i have countered every single point you have put forth and every time i try to bring back a point you directly ignoerd - somtimes even quoting and not responding to it you are the one that is not helping the discussion you keep using analogies that do not fit and in my last post i explained to you why
Quote:
1. You do not lose money afking, since you are not playing the game. Any reasonable examination is going to balance in game time, and not out of game time.
same as you wouldnt be mining if your lazy self just logged off instead of playing the game for once and just moving systems over
Quote:
2. You cannot set a bubble trap for someone who is afk. Similarly with no way to determine whether or not the cloaker in system is AFK, there is no impetus to set a bubble trap.
no duh ! you move a system over and go do your carebear pve over there - where you set the bubble is behind you so that if - read this carefully - if the guy is not afk he will now run into a bubble and he is dead - if he is afk you can carebear your way all the way to the bank
this is exactly what i mean i explained this perfectly in my last quote and
i swear to you now - one more time you ignore and i will not give you another response - and dont you dare consider that you - won - the debate if i do this because you are ignoring every single point i make or at least the explanation in this particular one right here
Quote:
3. It takes a disproportionate amount of expendature to set a bubble trap for a cloaker, especialy a recon or cov-ops. Since you cannot know if they are afk, any trap must remain up much longer than for any other target.
or to satisfy your isk per hour and to kill two birds with one stone - you can jump system every time you see him jump after you - eventually you can see a pattern and setup a bubble when it is most - how did you put it ? something about cost of expenditure
____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:01:00 -
[593]
Quote: 4. To make you move position every once and a while while giving the ability to a specialized force to find and destroy you does not remove cloaks from the game. It does make cloaks less powerful. However, the core abilities are still there.
ok im serious , read the quote above your post and respond directly to every point i made - because you are asking questions ive literally just answered in the last post and dont you dare ask me to repost something i just said 2 posts ago !
Quote:
5. If anyone losing money is of zero significance to you, then why do you destroy ships? Or cloak in the first place?
sometimes i dont destroy any ships - like i said in my last post and im going to remind you that i wont say anything twice again because my patience has run out with you - i like to sit there and watch - it is my gamestyle - your gamestyle of not defending yourself in 0.0 never existed - its something you dreamt up and ccp would ruin the game if your dreams were made reality
Quote:
6. I am not too lazy to defend because of some magical isk/hour. I am smart enough to know that defending is not valuable because of said isk/hour.
you just said the same thing twice there is no isk / hour - if there is a hostile you will have to adapt - by asking for the game to adapt to you is lazy Quote: The reason that cloaking should be nerfed has very little to do with the defenders, but to do with the safety that cloaking affords those who use it.
worth every skillpoint/ slot / isk that is put into it the way it is right now
Quote:
I am operating on a few base assumptions here. These are:
0.0 should not be safe, for anyone
safe based on what ? i can be safe if i am gaining no isk for my time - if i was somehow gaining an isk by cloaking then it would be different - it isnt Quote:
No module or combinations of module should give anyone the ability to be perfectly safe in 0.0.
read above
Quote:
There should always be a counter to a module or combination of modules that is of reasonable expendature to pull togother.
the whole existence of a cloak is so that you can not be found - the slot - isk - and sp to simply be invisible are perfectly balanced - as soon as i uncloak i have no advantage - you should not be solo 0.0 ever
Quote:
No ship should have the ability to choose all its battles, before or after they begin.
this is just nonsense - i told you why before - a single ship can defeat the cloaker
Quote:
------
You say cloaks are not overpowered. I say, that because they are an uncounterable module, becasue they allow complete safety in 0.0 space
you are never completely safe even with a cloak Quote: and because the ship has the ability to choose its battles, they are overpowered.
after a battle begins the cloaks advantage is used up - now if you jump in someone to help you the cloaker must run or perish Quote:
Can you tell me why these axioms are false? Can you tell me what axioms the game ought to be balanced on if not these? Can you tell me how based on any of these axioms, or said axioms that you think the game ought to be balanced on, cloaks could be balanced with current rules? Can you tell me how, based on any of these axioms, or said axioms that you think the game ought to be balanced on, cloaks would be balanced if there was no local chat?
concernings cloaks and local the game is already balance as this is what we are discussing already ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:10:00 -
[594]
ignore my points and you might as well not post here goum because instead of having a discussion you are reflecting the exact same thoughts over and over without any care to what is being told to you as prevention or solution ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:28:00 -
[595]
Originally by: SiJira you do realize that if we were actually talking this is the point where i start swearing right ? i have countered every single point you have put forth and every time i try to bring back a point you directly ignoerd - somtimes even quoting and not responding to it you are the one that is not helping the discussion you keep using analogies that do not fit and in my last post i explained to you why
This is not a point. I would like a link to where you explain why the analogy is false. Keep in mind that stating "the analogy is false" does not constitute an arguement.
Quote: same as you wouldnt be mining if your lazy self just logged off instead of playing the game for once and just moving systems over
This does not address the issue. You are able to incur damages on opponents without being online. The cost of this is nothing, since you arent online.
Comparative opporunity costs will always come up postive for the player who can affect the game in an uncounterable manner without needing to be at his computer.
Quote: no duh ! you move a system over and go do your carebear pve over there - where you set the bubble is behind you so that if - read this carefully - if the guy is not afk he will now run into a bubble and he is dead - if he is afk you can carebear your way all the way to the bank
this is exactly what i mean i explained this perfectly in my last quote and
i swear to you now - one more time you ignore and i will not give you another response - and dont you dare consider that you - won - the debate if i do this because you are ignoring every single point i make or at least the explanation in this particular one right here
You can not challenge a cloaked ship in a ratting/mining ship. If he follows you instead of staying where he is, and you drop a bubble, then you have left your combat ships behind. Now you have the problem of making sure the guy is online.
How long do you wait before resuming your activities? Do you constantly gaurd the gate? Isnt the fact that you have to constantly gaurd all the gates into a system the problem?
Bubbles do not instantly destroy ships, nor do they take no time to setup, nor do they require no maintence. If you set a bubble with no camp, he will simply leave. And it takes time to online the bubble[during which time, if he were following you, he would have passed]. And the bubble then becomes a hazard that you have to nagivate around.
Quote: or to satisfy your isk per hour and to kill two birds with one stone - you can jump system every time you see him jump after you - eventually you can see a pattern and setup a bubble when it is most - how did you put it ? something about cost of expenditure
If he follows you, yes. Good luck onlining it before he catches you ;) Or getting him to follow a combat gang ;) Or leaving a hub system.
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:48:00 -
[596]
Quote: sometimes i dont destroy any ships - like i said in my last post and im going to remind you that i wont say anything twice again because my patience has run out with you - i like to sit there and watch - it is my gamestyle - your gamestyle of not defending yourself in 0.0 never existed - its something you dreamt up and ccp would ruin the game if your dreams were made reality
if my perfered game style is "to rat or mine without stopping and never getting attacked" then why is taking actions against one game style ok, but not an other game style?
Why should one game style be safe, and one not be safe? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.24 23:53:00 -
[597]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 24/05/2007 23:53:00 damn this still going :S
well make local as npc corps (you only come up if you type) (realistic balancing).
make probes that can find cloaked ships, make a device that can decloak a ship (with a cooldown like 5-10minutes or whatever they find balanced, and a range of ?! what they find is balanced).
peace out
Edit: we most all remember that this is NOT about nerfing some because of them, but about the overall balance in the game and this WILL be for the greater good of the game and thereby for all.... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.25 00:04:00 -
[598]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 24/05/2007 23:53:00 damn this still going :S
well make local as npc corps (you only come up if you type) (realistic balancing).
make probes that can find cloaked ships, make a device that can decloak a ship (with a cooldown like 5-10minutes or whatever they find balanced, and a range of ?! what they find is balanced).
peace out
Edit: we most all remember that this is NOT about nerfing some because of them, but about the overall balance in the game and this WILL be for the greater good of the game and thereby for all....
Because then no one would speak. At that point you are in the same situation as if there were no local.
I and many others have explained what would happen without local. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.25 01:30:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Goumindong Cloaks are overpowered, whether or not they were designed in that manner is irrelevent to whether or not they are overpowered
Local is overpowered, whether or not it was designed in that manner is irrelevent to whether or not it is overpowered
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 01:36:00 -
[600]
ah goum I guess you just dont want to debate - you just want us to keep repeating the same stuff over
read this
thats the post i meant for you to respond line by line
anyways if you are doing non pvp stuff you should expect to have some sort of pvp backup
all the questions you just asked have been given to you by myself or others earlier in the thread
a friend can setup the bubble on the other side of the gate and then you can jump problem solved of him following you or time taken to set it up
____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
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