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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here are some of my views on destroyers after the buff:
Thrasher: The Gold Standard
AC Fit GÇô You can fit 200mm and either a MSE or a 400mm plate. Depending on rigs you can get anywhere between 7.25k and 9.5k EHP. You can also get between 300 and 440 DPS with faction ammo overheated.
Arty Fit GÇô 1846 alpha on my fit. Every 5.87 seconds.
Catalyst: An Exercise in Frustration.
Blaster Fit GÇô You can get a full rack of neutrons on but you nerf everything else to the point that it just isnGÇÖt worth it. I tried to fit a 400mm plate on it. I ended up needing a fitting rig to put electron blasters on! You can get the gank usually with little thought but are left with a paper tiger. If you fit for tank youGÇÖre left with DPS thatGÇÖs sub Thrasher level. I did have some success with this fit though:
High: Light Ion Blaster II x 8 Mid: Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Warp Scrambler II Low: SAR II DC II MFS II Rigs: Armor Explosive Pump x 2 Armor Kinetic Pump
6.2k EHP. 366 DPS. It can take a bit of a beating before it goes down.
Rail Fit - I really like the catalyst rail fit. I was surprised in fact at how well it did. The first one I fit took down a Slicer and a shield fit thrasher before getting taken down by another shield fit thrasher.
High: 125mm II x 8 Mid: Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Named Target Painter Low: MAPC MFS II x 2 Rigs: Hybrid Collision Hybrid Burst
Less then 4k EHP. 424 DPS Overheated. It is sending 612 alpha down range every 1.53 seconds. You can also swap out a MFS II for a TE II and then replace the target painter with either a tracking computer (tracks like a god then) or a point. This knocks the DPS down to 356 with is still much better then the arty thrasher. It also has some of the surprise quality of the thrasher. The fourth shot is going out at 6.12 seconds while the Thrasher just made it's second at 5.87.
Summary - This ship can shine but it still REALLY needs some more power grid and CPU.
Cormorant: Long Rang Love Taps
Blaster Fit - No experience
Rail Fit - This is not a solo ship. But when you have dedicated tacklers it causes tears and is really fun in faction warfare.
High: 150mm II x 7 Mid: AB II Tracking Computer II x 2 Sensor Booster II Low: MFS II Rigs: Small Ancillary Current Router x 2 Small Ionic Field Projector
90km lock range. It can throw ammo that far too. Lots of fun when you're backing up other friends in a plex. It even made the vaunted thrasher turn tail.
Summary - This was designed to shoot far and since frigates dont' really tank - it actually works. It is not a solo boat. It also is atrociously slow. It doesn't even make 700m/s. A little more fitting to squeeze in a MWD would be great - but probably not particularly balanced considering it's range.
Coercer - No Experience.
Anyways, share your thoughts. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Let me add to this.
If assault frigates are buffed there will be little reason to fly a blaster catalyst over a blaster Enyo. The Enyo will get low 400 DPS AND it will be able to have a tank AND it will be a much smaller ship target. The Catalyst sucks that hard in fittings.
The thrasher is also unique in that it has a damage bonus. None of the other destroyers can claim a straight damage bonus. From a balancing viewpoint - give it an 8th turret and swap out the damage bonus for a falloff bonus. It would lose .75 of a turret in terms of DPS - but it would gain damage projection. And it would be more in line with the other destroyers. |
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
The only one i have flew is The Catalyst. Have some good fights in it but after the hype post-exp i just don' t feel i wanna fly it again. Mostly because now not every rifter, t1 frigate and bad tanked ships will engage you knowing that you can be a threat. They don' t shine but at least they are not useless as before, except the trasher that was good before and now is just epic for how much it cost (Minnie wins again:p)
Btw with the AF buff they will became obsolete again, calling it now.
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
395
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thrasher is still the one to fly. Coercer still has 1 mid. Catalyst is now for suicide ganking hulks. Cormonant is still lol. Winmatar still wins. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
36
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Posted - 2011.12.28 04:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
My take on the sniper cormy:
[Cormorant, Railing]
150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S [Empty High slot]
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
105 DPS at 72+7.5km with Spike and targeting to 72km. 184DPS at 13+12km with Jav; MWD web, dissy so you can kite if you want to and if you stuff up can at least hold down the opposition. 4.3k EHP. 1533m/s.
Not completely useless and one of the few MAPCII uses I've yet found. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu
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Scarlet Loveless
White Mango
0
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Posted - 2011.12.28 05:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:My take on the sniper cormy:
[Cormorant, Railing]
150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S 150mm Railgun II, Spike S [Empty High slot]
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
105 DPS at 72+7.5km with Spike and targeting to 72km. 184DPS at 13+12km with Jav; MWD web, dissy so you can kite if you want to and if you stuff up can at least hold down the opposition. 4.3k EHP. 1533m/s.
Not completely useless and one of the few MAPCII uses I've yet found. Why the web and warp disrupt? If you are at 70km+ they do nothing for you.
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Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
85
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Posted - 2011.12.28 10:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cormorant + MSE + scram + web + MWD
75mm guns - spike (long range) ammo gives you all the range you need if you need to hit out to long ranges. otherwise just use caldari navy antimatter. |
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx Rookie Empire
29
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Posted - 2011.12.28 16:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
when I minimize my web browser with this thread up, it says "Destroyer Anal"
Just thought I'd point this out. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7
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Posted - 2011.12.28 16:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
The thrasher has most of its CPU, grid and cap available after fitting guns unlike its cousins. It is the only one you can fit for gank and tank. Therefore, it is by far the superior choice unless you want to snipe pods/frigs/inties or suicide gank in high sec. The coercer is solid, even with one mid, but the fitting and cap requirements are extreme.
With a paperthin setup you can push 284dps past 20km however: [Coercer, fhc]
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
1679m/s, cap lasts 3m, source: FHC.
I've used this with medium succes: it's a great contribution to a smallish fleet but even a couple of drones will kill you, much less being called primary. |
Bucky O'Hair
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
18
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Posted - 2011.12.28 16:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:when I minimize my web browser with this thread up, it says "Destroyer Anal"
Just thought I'd point this out.
DUDE!!
That is too funny!
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
205
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Posted - 2011.12.28 17:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Always enjoy it when people use a ships inability to fit biggest guns + tank + 400m2 condo as reasoning for increasing fittings
That said, Catalyst could do with a bit more room to allow for not-quite-instadeath blaster fits and Cormy really does need a bit more mobility .. but they really do shine with rails so question is how much to give them without breaking them (read: make them OP or pigeon-holing them).
Thrasher is indeed the gold standard as it is and always has been incredibly easy to fit and fly. Balancing destroyers would mean "nerfing" Thrasher's rather than boosting the others as a boost of the size needed would ruin what little balance remains when it comes to 'destroyers vs. everything else'. I have previously lobbied for AC fitting increases as a partial solution to not only Trash but all projectile platforms, ran into a cacophony of "GBTWOW" and other nastiness from the FoTM jockeys though so decided to let it rest until people got fed up with seeing projectiles everywhere
Coercer by the way is :awesomesauce:. Sure, it doesn't tackle but with damage and projection like nothing else it provides dps long before and long after most others have given up or are wrecks. Apart for the one midslot "issue", they are probably the most perfectly balanced of the lot as they have room for gank and tank but never at the same time while only requiring fitting mods for extreme fits. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
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Posted - 2011.12.28 18:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Catalyst and the Enyo will be direct competitors. With one fit, should the AF changes go through, the Enyo can get 407 DPS with somewhere between 7.5k - 8.5k EHP. A double damage bonus means that the Enyo gets essentially six turrets. It will get the majority of the Catalyst's firepower on a much smaller, durable frame. The Catalyst will need a fitting grade buff in order to up it's game. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
119
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Posted - 2011.12.28 23:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
With destoyers having the sensor strength of frigates the sig radius just a bit over frigates, larger tank and more cap than frigates and the dps of a cruiser yet using frigate sized guns - who needs frigates anymore?
I'm not really sure what purpose all those frigate classed ships serve anymore other than as targets for destroyers.
IMHO Destroyers should have their sensor strength nerfed.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
399
|
Posted - 2011.12.28 23:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cearain wrote:With destoyers having the sensor strength of frigates the sig radius just a bit over frigates, larger tank and more cap than frigates and the dps of a cruiser yet using frigate sized guns - who needs frigates anymore?
I'm not really sure what purpose all those frigate classed ships serve anymore other than as targets for destroyers.
IMHO Destroyers should have their sensor strength nerfed.
Sensor strength? What does that have to do with anything?
Sig radius is bigger than frig, just not by as much as it used to be. Dessie tank is quite fail, not nearly as durable as frigate, and also much slower. It has more guns, but that's by design. I don't see dessie killing off frig class. It's not as useless as it used to be, that's all. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
119
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Posted - 2011.12.28 23:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Cearain wrote:With destoyers having the sensor strength of frigates the sig radius just a bit over frigates, larger tank and more cap than frigates and the dps of a cruiser yet using frigate sized guns - who needs frigates anymore?
I'm not really sure what purpose all those frigate classed ships serve anymore other than as targets for destroyers.
IMHO Destroyers should have their sensor strength nerfed.
Sensor strength? What does that have to do with anything? Sig radius is bigger than frig, just not by as much as it used to be. Dessie tank is quite fail, not nearly as durable as frigate, and also much slower. It has more guns, but that's by design. I don't see dessie killing off frig class. It's not as useless as it used to be, that's all.
You are right I meant scan resolution. Will edit my post.
I get those mixed up allot. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
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Posted - 2011.12.28 23:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Destroyers do more damage and have more hit-points. Still as useful as they were. Not sure much else needs to be said. Fittings remain the same for the most part. |
Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2011.12.29 00:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Edit: I'm showing a thrasher has the same speed as a merlin same scan resolution and bit larger sig 56 versus 40 sig. Much better tank. Winmatar vs. lolCaldari? |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
137
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Posted - 2011.12.29 02:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
Used them all since the patch in Actual pvp.
Thrasher - not much changed more DPS and TANK still fly and use the same.
Catty- Ion blaster fit is win. 200 plate with DCU and Adap Nano is plenty of tank since it spews DPS and will kill what it goes after before they work through your arm. Soloed AC thrashers in this fit. 125 Rail fit is amazing, more then i expected. Cal navy and jav ammo get things done. This is now my fav destroyer actually. Got a drone as well if you are into that type of stuff i forget to deploy it most of the time.
Cormorant- 75mm rails with jav ammo seem to work best on this for me. Med extender Scram web and things die very fast. Or a sniper 125/150 fit if you are in a gang. Electron and Ions are ok but 75 mm rails seem to work best even over them due to its bonuses and jav ammo with tracking bonus now is win. I see no reason to bother with blasters on fits with this ship.
Coercer- meh lots of dps but only one mid.
I like them all now and they work now except the amarr one which is best used in PvE situations. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
158
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 03:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:Destroyers do more damage and have more hit-points. Still as useful as they were. Not sure much else needs to be said. Fittings remain the same for the most part.
By the way Zarnak Wulf. I believe electronic attack frigates should get the afterburner bonus. They're the least useful ships for direct engagements. So least likely to cause a "imbalance", with exceptions. For the most part I would not mind a Keres going 2,500m/sec with a afterburner. Provided CCP lowers or does not increase electronic attack ship damage in anyway. They will still pop ALOT, but will be unique I suppose.
EAF - Quite some time ago I suggested that they get that AB bonus. There's only one per race so it's harder for it to be unbalanced and it would contribute to them surviving longer. Recently I've had a mind that since so many get cap bonuses that would be the way to go for a role bonus. The truth is that EAF are very broken and they will have to sit down and hammer out a solutions.
Destroyers - The Thrasher gets right at 8k EHP and puts out 300- 440 DPS consistently. The other destroyers you have to play a game of twister to fit. Why fly the Coercer when the Retribution offers more? (Soon - TM) Why fly the Catalyst when you have the Enyo? I'm just looking ahead. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
158
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Posted - 2011.12.29 03:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote: Catty- Ion blaster fit is win. 200 plate with DCU and Adap Nano is plenty of tank since it spews DPS and will kill what it goes after before they work through your arm. Soloed AC thrashers in this fit.
That is a workable and good fit. I've tried all but the coercer myself. I would say that it would be nice if could fit both a hybrid burst and collision rig rather then an absolutely need an ancillary current rig on the above setup though. |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
120
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Posted - 2011.12.29 04:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jask Avan wrote:Cearain wrote:Edit: I'm showing a thrasher has the same speed as a merlin same scan resolution and bit larger sig 56 versus 40 sig. Much better tank. Winmatar vs. lolCaldari?
The merlin is a frigate I used to fly and get in some good fights with. I think its pretty obsolete now that destroyers are so much better in every way - well except a slightly smaller sig radius.
edit: I would suggest that the scan resolution difference between t1 frigates and destroyers be about the same as the difference between t1 cruisers and battlecruisers. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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mama guru
Thundercats Initiative Mercenaries
9
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Posted - 2011.12.29 05:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
What destroyers need is a massive EHP buff, mobility and firepower wise they are fine. But they should kinda function as a lightweight cruiser with frigate guns. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's to hard you are to weak. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
399
|
Posted - 2011.12.29 05:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
mama guru wrote:What destroyers need is a massive EHP buff, mobility and firepower wise they are fine. But they should kinda function as a lightweight cruiser with frigate guns.
^This
Destroyers should be to frigs as BCs are to cruisers, while vulnerable to cruisers as BCs are to BS. It would still be in a somewhat more vulnerable position than BCs, as cruiser hulls are far more common than BS outside of blobs. |
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Gryphon League
5
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Posted - 2011.12.29 07:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
[Cormorant, Rail (PvP)] Damage Control II
Warp Scrambler II Medium Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II
75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Javelin S Small Nosferatu II
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
EFT Warrior-ing this attempt.
11.4k EHP 1329 m/s with MWD 7k (incl falloff) range with Javelin 147.4 DPS 293 volley |
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.12.29 22:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
tbh dps is trash and 7km with falloff included (lol) is trash too Ehp it' s not the way to go imho |
Delphina Xanieu
Carta Princepes
0
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Posted - 2012.02.10 05:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hey there, it's my first post and yes, I am a newbie. That's going to explain a lot when you see the Thrasher build I was inspired to do. The build was as much inspired by roleplay elements as by any sort of "effectiveness." That being said, I'll spell out the strong points on this PvE build.
Thrasher, Autocannon (PvE): "Citizen's Arrest"
Low Slots: Overdrive Injector System 2 Nanofiber Internal Structure 2
Medium Slots: Medium Shield Extender 2 Small Shield Booster 2 1MN Afterburner 2
High Slots: Civilian Gatling Autocannon x7 'Limos' Rocket Launcher 1 (Inferno Rockets)
Rigs: Small Auxiliary Thrusters 1 Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints 1 Small Capacitor Control Circuit 1
I presently hit 2316 shield HP with peak recharge of 12 HP / second. I can currently run the capacitor with the shield booster for 1:34, and during missions I often get the chance to recharge. My DPS is a whopping 32.3, and will probably peak out around 36 or so, maybe 40. I've never tried overloading before. In most level 1 and 2 missions though, my DPS pops most frigates in a few seconds, so having over a certain amount would just be overkill. It would be helpful to have more DPS for a few specialty frigates and against cruisers though.
Obviously this is a ridiculous build, but it amuses me and it has some merits. For one, I only have to worry about rocket ammunition, which is not a big concern for a single launcher. I chose inferno rockets because 1) they break shields, which is useful when my primary guns deal explosive/kinetic only, and 2) they were much, much cheaper than the EM rockets. My projectiles never run out, and never have to reload. Furthermore, I would bet my tracking speed is higher than just about anyone else in this thread at 0.909 rad/sec. Even if it's not the highest, I could equip a tracking module or use an implant or get the 5th rank of Motion Prediction... but I don't need to, so you get the point. Sometimes you just have to be able to hit the SOB, and I can do that. As with any AC build, range is an issue but I can not only close with the enemy but keep the AB running indefinitely to speed tank (top speed 929 m/sec presently). When the speed tank doesn't work, the shield tank generally works.
As with most destroyer builds this one is fairly cheap, probably costing around 5 million ISK or less to throw together. Considering you rarely have to buy ammo or resupply, this ship is cheap, expendable and surprisingly enough effective. It can obviously breeze through level 1 missions, but I use it for level 2 missions. The only mission I haven't been able to finish involved eight cruisers in a tight knit bunch, which would be a challenge for ANY autocannon destroyer. If you want to run level 3 missions, you should probably just upgrade to a bigger ship than a destroyer IMHO. The Citizen's Arrest has been flying thus far ever since I earned it in my newbie missions, and hasn't failed me yet. If it ever does, I'm already building backups.
I did read the rest of the thread though, and it makes me think I ought to try the bizarre Coercer. The endless ammo of laser fire appeals to me in the same way that the civilian autocannons did. Now I'll just have to figure out armor tanking, or long range engagement. |
McRoll
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
32
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Posted - 2012.02.10 13:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
I tried Cormorant and Coercer after the buff and found them better than Thrasher at sniping. When you fly in a gang, you can make especially the Coercer an excellent sniper and the Cormorant works solo very well. I killed a Wolf in it by flying away while battering him with rails and spike ammo and used cn antimatter with web once he caught up with me.
Imo you should only use the Catalyst with close range weapons because it's the only destroyer which really delivers an obscene amount of damage with close range weapons. With the other 3 the dps increase isnt that high with close range weapons and not really worth losing range control.
I found especially the Cormorant better than Thrasher now because of its 4 mids and the ability to use web, disruptor, mwd and med shield extender. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
86
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Posted - 2012.02.10 14:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
The new destroyers seems fun - unfortunately the Thrasher is still much better than the others for generic pvp... But they all got some bite and are pretty cheap...
Pinky |
McRoll
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
32
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Posted - 2012.02.10 14:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
What do you mean by "better"?
I cannot provide numbers right now because Im not at home but a railgun Cormorant fit is better than a Thrasher arty fit for me because of better range, not much less DPS and the ability to fit a web along with a med shield extender. If you want to do that with a Thrasher you end up with rather no web or no tank.
As for blasters vs AC, see above. Having a web together with an extender is extremely useful. I gladly give up a lowslot for that. |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
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Posted - 2012.02.10 22:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Half the problem with the catalyst is that it doesn't know what role it wants to fill, optimal AND falloff bonus is not a very focused combination. Switch the hull bonus from optimal to falloff, make it a dedicated blaster boat.
Possibly do the same for the Thrasher to emphasise the autocannon platform role (which also means the destroyers are split into 2 snipers and 2 short ranged gankers). |
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