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BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.29 12:07:00 -
[1]
Originally by: sartorii
The only training necessary for a 10 on 1 is the ability to target and fire. The only coordination required is that they actually all attack. Not difficult tasks. If you cant take 10 'new' pilots out with under 10 min of 'training' and kill a single BS you are just sad. Smart bombs or not. In fact those who die to smartbomb BS are pretty much clueless to begin with.....
I'll take that bet.
We'll find a fair way to select 10 newbies. You get ten minutes to train them. I'll fly a battleship against them, solo. If I win, you pay me 10 million isk. If I lose, I pay you 10 million isk, and I lose a battleship.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.30 08:25:00 -
[2]
I don't think that it's bad to have risk averse pilots in this game - if you want to be risk averse, that's your call. In my opinion, flying disposable ships is a hell of a lot more fun. (Flying missions in highsec is a lot more interesting for me at the moment, seeing as how there's a chance that I might actually get killed, but I'm not exactly 'risk averse'.)
Neither is it a problem that there are lazy pilots in the game. It's perfectly fine for people to not want to work hard.
The thing that's a problem is if the rules get changed to favour lazy tactics and organization. And let's face it, bringing more numbers is the product of organizational skill and it should be rewarded. (Some day, I want to fly with 20 pilots against a mega-blob and see how well we can do. That'll have to wait until I can afford an ADSL2 connection, given the way that EVE handles network traffic )
There have been a lot of good suggestions for reducing the tendency towards blobbing - creating more incentives and strategic value for getting yourself in behind enemy lines and that sort of thing. Nerfing the power of numbers won't encourage more subtle play - it'll encourage people to bring even heavier sledgehammers.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.30 08:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rocinantae As one of Rells' neighbors I can say they definetly make you think out of the box. In my short time in eve I have seen alot of different command styles. The most would be static people that mindlessly blob without considering out manuevering them somehow. We defintley are thinking more out of the box strats. And if its because of being agonys neighbor so be it. I know what you mean about the different types of strats that could be employed. This is a 3 dimensional game, people should think that way more. Anyway I better shut up before the ceo yells at me for fraternising with the enemy.
OF course these are only my opinions and you better hope no one starts listening to me. ;-D
Thank you for these kind words. I hope they do listen to you - as you say, there's nothing like a capable opponent to make you lift your own game.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.02 12:57:00 -
[4]
I think it's a mistake to say "EVE is clearly designed with fleet battles as a focus." However, it is definitely true that there are design elements that encourage players to get into fleets.
The problem is that that the strategic situation has devolved into contest that essentially boil down to who can bring the biggest fleet. If wars were taking place along a front, and people were maneuvering around each other and whatnot, then you'd need to spread your forces along that front. But the wars tend to focus on the pipes, because that's the most effective place to mount a defence.
Commanders concentrate their forces in the pipes beacuse they're not idiots. And when battles take place, they are lag-ridden, messy and not much fun (from what I've heard), because the servers can't handle having so many ships in one system.
CCP has attempted to get rid of this problem with anti-blob weapons on titan-class ships. The result has been blobs going after titans and titan shipyards.
Now we finally get to the points that Rells was making. The first is that in attempting to destroy the 'powerballs', the developers will achieve absolutely nothing in terms of addressing the problems related to blobs. As many others have pointed out, what you'll see are powerballs armed with anti-powerball weapons. The powerball that shoots first wins, and the fight is over. It'll be shorter and less enjoyable than the current powerball combats, which are already getting bad reviews as ending too quickly for most pilots and not being fun.
The second point is that these changes give much more power to weight of metal and much less power to weight of numbers. As it stands, nobody without a titan stands a chance against a titan (unless the titan pilot lags out really badly). With battleships armed with these 'anti-powerball' weapons, nobody without a battleship will stand a chance against a battleship.
If you want to consolidate and stratify the power structures in EVE, then making it impossible to meaningfully engage a bigger ship is a great way to do it. As such, the dev's implementation of anti-powerball weapons are a massive win for the established mega-alliances and a potential deathblow to small and emerging alliances.
As for whether Agony uses blobs or not, I'm convinced that 'blob' is an irregular noun: I have a fleet. You have a gang. He has a blob.
If CCP actually wants to fix blob warfare, they need to do what they've been talking about for a long time - to provide an obvious incentive to outflank and outmaneuver. There are non-obvious incentives to do this already - everybody who operates in Pure Blind has learned that lesson, one way or another.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.03 03:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gemini Zero How hard is it for people to grasp the difference between a fleet and a blob?
Think a five lane highway where every car is moving in the same direction at very high speeds vs. Santa Monica Boulevard at rush hour and thereÆs a blackout so the traffic lights are not working.
Were you there on the Wolfpacks course when I needed Rells to explain the same maneuver to me five times before I was able to do it? Get ready to be very patient (sir).
There are two separate issues here. One issue is people who aren't having much fun because all they do is sit in massive gatecamps, or go on massive fleet battles where they get instapopped (if they're lucky) or spend an hour or two clicking as fast as they can in a lag-ridden interface (if they're unlucky). That's the 'blob problem'.
The second problem is disorganized fleets. In Agony, we call those 'blobs', and ours is not the conventional use of the term. As satisfying as it is to take 5 frigates against a group of 8 heavier ships and do more damage than we took (damn I had fun today), that's not 'the blob problem' as far as the forums are concerned.
The simplest way to win an engagement is to bring more weight to it - weight of numbers or weight of metal. As much as we might like to pretend otherwise, our success in PVP-BASIC classes depends heavily on superior weight of numbers. Yes, we organize those people well, and without the Agony fleet commanders and scouts they'd probably turn into mincemeat, but one of the reasons why we don't engage squadrons of six battleships with our 20 frigates is because we know we don't have the weight to survive the engagement.
The fact that Agony is able to achieve relatively more with relatively less weight than most of our opponents is actually irrelevant to the game design issue here. On the glorious day when Agony is theoretically able to field 600 ships vs 2000 (I'm betting the 2000 will control the field at the end of the battle, but we'd make them pay for it), we won't be practically able to have that battle. Because the lag will destroy the game experience for all participants. That's the blob problem as far as the forums are concerned.
As Rells said, AoE weapons completely irrelevant to the game-design blob problem, and are destructive to those alliances using lighter ships. Encouraging tactical dispersal with AOE weapons does absolutely nothing to diminish the power of massive sniper fleets, it just means they'll spend a bit more time positioning themselves. And it means that forces which operate on a basis of concentrating their lighter forces more quickly and efficiently are disadvantaged.
Besides, why are Agony officers getting worked up over whether we're being called blobs or not? Call it a blob, call it a gank fleet, call it a roving gang, I don't care. (Although I was really pleased when I met someone who compared us to Reavers.) The important thing regarding Agony is that we can unleash a surprising amount of pain on our targets. And the important thing regarding game design is that more players will enjoy themselves better when they feel like they can achieve something meaningful as part of a smaller and less lag-ridden gang.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.04 00:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Ah finaly somebody from Agony I can agree with. You nailed it AND written it very well.
Thanks!
Quote:
One thing that can help is a sophisticated fleet UI. Right now organising a fleet is a PITA. You have no way of effectively telling what ships are there if that is not anounced by the gang members. Would be great if the FC/sqad/wing/whatever commanders could see shiptypes of members (bs, inty, cruiser etc ...). The organize them into squads by shiptype at least.
An in-game tool for doing that would definitely be a help for most FCs. Personally, I enjoy these kinds of organizational challenges, and I think Agony handles them pretty well.
Quote:
A rework to gang bonuses could help. A frig squad does not need the armor/shiled hp bonuses that much, because they don't get much hp out of it. However speed is important to them. Again long range ships need tracking etc. Just a few thoughts ...
Skirmish Warfare gives speed bonuses. From a completeness point of view, weapon upgrades through leadership would be good. I suspect the reason why there aren't weapon-upgrade leadership skills is that they would tend to make battles shorter. Personally, I think the current pace of battles is pretty good.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.04 01:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Solbright
Either you are talking about pilots massing together for combat or you aren't talking about blobs.
It's quite inappropriate to be using the term "blob" for something else when it has meaning assigned be the devs. And I don't recognise it as a common term outside of Eve so you can't claim the devs stole it.
And then accusing CCP of messing up with said blobs.
If you're going to get cranky about the definition of 'blob', you may as well consult dictionary.com. As you can see, the commonplace meaning is 'a disorganized mass'. Agony is a great many things, but our mass is rarely disorganized.
Agony also has a tendency to stay out of politics and the forum-warrior game. So Agony officers were more familiar with the non-Eve-forums definition of 'blob' than the Eve-forums definition. Hence the confusion.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.05 01:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Solbright
Originally by: BluOrange If you're going to get cranky about the definition of 'blob', you may as well consult dictionary.com.
Lol, that's barely even relevant. As was said earlier, the term was used by the devs to represent the growth and motion of fleets from system to system as it loaded up the various nodes and the ensuing combat that could screw over that node.
Doesn't really matter how organised the combat is. The effect of blobs on the nodes is the same - lots of simultaneous commands load up the node. That is the essence of what blobbing is for Eve.
Yes. That's what I was saying in my post where I attempted to identify and address the confusion regarding the definition of 'blob'. Your follow-up point regarding MMO usage of the term blob does nothing to support your claim that Agony has wilfully misunderstood the usage of the term in EVE. I used the word 'blob' for many years before I started playing this game, and I believe that's the case with many other Agony officer.
Quote: I'll repeat. Any assertion that a blob is less than this is going to cause confusion. Especially in reference to blobs being an Eve design issue.
I agree with you.
Quote: I'll make an assertion now. You have always known what a blob is for Eve. You are just a bunch of trolls hijacking a hot topic for your own agenda.
I personally knew what a blob is for Eve before this conversation started. However, most Agony pilots have not spent a lot of time in big alliances. Those who have experienced large-scale alliance warfare have memories of it being a large and disorganized mass. Hence their tendency to use 'blob' in its negative sense.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.05 02:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Solbright
Originally by: Rells For those that actually enjoy the risk, I would suggest you fly something smaller and cheaper. You don't have to go out in the 200 million isk HAC but rather a simple tech 1 frigate or destroyer will do the trick.
Had to engage on this one ... What makes it risky, and OneSock made this point pretty clear, is the cost of replacement. You aren't playing a risky game when your whole kit is only worth a few mil.
Agony plays Eve for no risk.
Or is this another twisted definition? :P
No risk? More like 'a different risk'.
We don't often risk much money, and that is the most popular way to measure risk in this game. (That said, we have taken capital ships into combat - that's a reasonably significant financial risk.)
The biggest thing we risk is our egos. Here we are with our t1 frigates and cruisers and we're taking on more expensive opponents. And while we like to talk about how good we are at winning, we do lose from time to time.
The thing about flying cheap ships is that you're no longer accepting a risk of losing your ship, you're accepting the certainty of losing your ship. If a t1 frigate is primary, it's almost certainly dead. A great many pilots would rather lose an expensive ship than get podded.
The fact that we openly risk losing means we don't have to risk so much money.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.05 06:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Solbright Yeah, right! Win a fight, look how cool that was with just cheap ships. Lose a fight, not to worry, it was unbalanced in their favour.
Not sure where the Ego risk is there.
Heh, you're not the one who spent two hours analysing the battle he lost yesterday. But maybe you're right. Maybe Agony has found a way of taking in part in PVP without taking any meaningful risks. Maybe I should gloat about that instead of arguing with you
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
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BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.05 06:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Solbright
Originally by: BluOrange
Originally by: Solbright Doesn't really matter how organised the combat is. The effect of blobs on the nodes is the same - lots of simultaneous commands load up the node. That is the essence of what blobbing is for Eve.
Yes. That's what I was saying in my post where I attempted to identify and address the confusion regarding the definition of 'blob'.
Where?
Here.
Quote:
Quote: ... I used the word 'blob' for many years before I started playing this game, and I believe that's the case with many other Agony officer.
A named term in other MMOGs? Example?
Actually, I learned English a long time before I started playing MMOGs.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: I'll repeat. Any assertion that a blob is less than this is going to cause confusion. Especially in reference to blobs being an Eve design issue.
I agree with you.
Good, you certainly didn't earlier.
I've disagreed with the allegations you've made regarding the intentions of Agony officers in this thread, and with assertions that you've made to justify those allegations (such as the idea that 'blob' only has one meaning).
I agree that using the definition of 'blob' that Agony pilots have been using leads to confusion, and my response has been to try to address that confusion.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: I'll make an assertion now. You have always known what a blob is for Eve. You are just a bunch of trolls hijacking a hot topic for your own agenda.
I personally knew what a blob is for Eve before this conversation started. However, most Agony pilots ...
Most Agony pilots will be happy to go with the agenda.
Which agenda is that?
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.05 06:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Solbright
Now we get back to the question of what is wrong with blobs. I say nothing. Blobs are good
The Devs can't nerf blobs anyway. Anything that nerf's blobs will destroy the game as a whole.
You make some excellent points in the thread that you linked to there. I agree that the only real problem with blobs is the fact that the game gets crashed (or lagged into uselessness) by large blobs. I agree that attempting to nerf blobs (once we agree on a definition of 'blob') is bad for the game. So does Rells.
What Rells has been trying to say (and I support him in this wholeheartedly) is that the attempts by the developers to nerf blobs are bad for the game.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.06 03:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Solbright Cool, can't say I've been paying much attention to what the Devs have said about blobs. I've mostly just focused on my agenda. We just happened to cross paths.
Best of luck.
This dev blog is the one where they talk about new Area of Effect weapons, which is what we were complaining about.
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.07 04:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Earthan I think actually area of effect weapons can help.Specially if balanced like the missile balance long time ago so that frigs/cruisers take much less dmg.I personally was thinking more about a system where dmg from more then x ships of a class gets penalties but i guess this also can help.
Why do you think it will help? (I'm willing to reconsider my strong support for Rells on this issue, but I've seen a lot of good arguments against AoE weapons from a lot of people, so I'm reluctant to just take your word for it.)
------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. www.agony-unleashed.com
Some people kill for money. Some people kill for politics. Some people kill for religion. I kill because it's fun. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 02:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rells Well now we know CCP isnt listneing to anything we say.
Boss, you're wrong.
Do you listen to me? I'm completely confident that you do - we've talked over many things and reached constructive understandings about them.
Do you do as I tell you? No. You seem to be under the impression that not only are you allowed to make your own decisions, but you're the CEO. (It's crazy, I know. But there's not a lot I can do about it. )
CCP has listened, to the point where they've actually told us what's going on; instead of continuing with their policy of giving vague hints and poorly-managed releases of snippets of information. This is a step forward.
Was Agony taking out multiple HACs in a single engagement, right on day one? I suspect not. Building a dialogue takes time, just like building an organization.
Are there still problems? Absolutely. CCP has not yet acknowledged that their 'powerball' concept is a distraction from the real issues regarding blobbing. Like most software developers, they're finding it easier to add shiny features than to tackle underlying issues. That's a common problem that I know we both hate, and for good reasons.
But if you don't give them credit for the steps they have taken (increasing the meaningfulness of their communication, and making the AoE weapons something other than instant winbuttons) you diminish your own credibility, and you provide a disincentive for them to take further steps.
It's like teaching a child to walk. You don't criticise them for being unable to take more than one step, you say "That was a good step. Now it's time for another one." ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 02:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ischia
The basic idea is to calculate how saturated (with energy, shrapnel etc) the space around a given target is; and allow for these existing explosions/shrapnel/heat/emp/dark matter/whatever to affect subsequent incoming attacks in the same 'tick', however long a 'tick' is. The signature of the target and the signature of the explosion/weapon are used as part of the calculation.
I think there is good realism in that proposal, which is something I think I should have said earlier.
Quote:
Anyway, as I said above this does not really address the "too many ships in one area" problem, which leads to huge lag, which means refined tactics become all but impossible (or so I believe). But it does reduce the insta-pod effect of concentrated fire.
Reduce? Yes. I don't actually have a problem with the insta-pod effect. And I say that having been engaged at odds of "OMG I can't count that high" to "1" a couple of days ago. (Being the '1' is something I'm disappointed about, but it was my fault.)
People will always seek out the insta-pod. There are already reasons not to seek it out. But those reasons are things I'd rather not discuss in public, because I don't believe in talking detailed tactics in this forum. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 03:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rells First of all that would be impossible because of the intensity of calculations of LOS. Second of all it is not necessary as things stand NOW.
Poeple CHOOSE to blob, it is not forced on them. People blob becuase they are lazy, risk averse, uncreative, dont think tactically and become selfish. None of these issues is something CCP can solve and I wish they would stop trying. Making the game easier for the un-tactically minded, un-creative idiots is NOT the right direction.
When we use 30 ships to kill 1 or 2 ships, we are blobbing. The moral judgements about it are something I suggest you reconsider. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
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