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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:01:00 -
[1]
I remember back from the early days in eve when CCP envisioned great fleet battles in eve. CCP and most players were all for it, epic battles ftw...
Now it seems CCP has given up on trying to actually make these fleet fights work, instead lots of energy seems to be put into trying to prevent people from forming big fleets.
I think that is the wrong direction. EVE should have the capeability to handle big fights. Effort should be put into making them work instead of preventing them.
EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
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Pewpewdude
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:03:00 -
[2]
Nubzor, not for the removal of big fleets, but the reduction of 20 on 1 ganking, to split fleet fights into multiple engagements.. to make them more epic.
Now i shall consume your tears and increase my power.
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:08:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 30/04/2007 12:06:56
Originally by: Pewpewdude ...not for the removal of big fleets, but the reduction of 20 on 1 ganking...
Well, that is probably close to what CCP officialy says about it, but I do not believe that explanation is true.
Large fleet fights simply do not work well currently, and my impression is CCP is trying to take the easy way out instead of fixing eve to be able to handle those fights.
EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:14:00 -
[4]
Large fights up to say 80 v 80 can still work quite fine. Larger depends on the mood of the hardware and location of the fight. Extreme fights of say 200 v 200 are default lagfests yes, and I can imagine there's simply not much left for CCP to improve on that. [center] Old blog |
Buraken v2
Amarr Defence Initiative
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Posted - 2007.04.30 13:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pewpewdude not for the removal of big fleets, but the reduction of 20 on 1 ganking
Why is this? Are you an ID*OT (guess the word)? Do you ever think the russians looked at each other and went? "Geez guys, we are alot more then the germans, better send a bunch of guys home, better keep if fair *hugs and kisses each other*"
DO YA?
Do you think the americans turned around and went straight back home because some **** officer went "Iz not fair ya, you are too many!"
Genius, go play WoW. In numbers there is strength.
Oh man, if Leonidas went to Xerxes "d00d, you're arrows are bloating out the sun, we're only 300, BLOB LOOL ROFL!11!1", good times.
Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne
2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.30 13:57:00 -
[6]
I have also noticed that as soon as you convert a gang to a fleet the lag starts getting chronic especialy when it comes to loading the grid.
Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
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CaptainSeafort
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Buraken v2 <flammage>
thge point isnt to force the breakup, but to reduce the effectiveness. you yourself are taking the WoW approach of "we have more guys, ergo we win". eve is about a more in-depth experience. therefore, having 200 people shoot one guy is a patently retarded strategy. as eve players seem not to be using their brains in fleet fights (except a notable few), they havent realsied that focus fire works best with groups of 5-10, not the entire fleet -.-
so, before you go whining about "WoW play sux, lol, numbers win!" think about how you come over.
how is your night elf, btw?
"Planets and moons no longer hitch rides on player ships. Their towel privileges have been revoked." HHGG Lives on in EVE! |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Buraken v2 Do you think the americans turned around and went straight back home because some **** officer went "Iz not fair ya, you are too many!"
RL war isn't about fun and in RL you have to take it like it comes, because there is no 3rd party (devs), who can balance things to make battles 'enjoyable' for everyone. But EVE is a game and there are devs, who try to balance it in a way that we have fun, because if we don't have fun, we leave the game and they don't get our money.
Doesn't mean that I don't gank a hostile, when the opportunity arises, but those RL comparisons fail. If I got blobbed each day by 300 people and pvp wasn't fun anymore, then I'd play something else. ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Haks'he Lirky
Zombie Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Victor Vision I remember back from the early days in eve when CCP envisioned great fleet battles in eve. CCP and most players were all for it, epic battles ftw...
Now it seems CCP has given up on trying to actually make these fleet fights work, instead lots of energy seems to be put into trying to prevent people from forming big fleets.
I think that is the wrong direction. EVE should have the capeability to handle big fights. Effort should be put into making them work instead of preventing them.
when is it epic enough? and when will the number escalation stop?
A few years back it was epic to have 80vs80, now people seem to want 200vs200, so that leads to he assumption that sometime in the future people will want 400vs400. CCP has to decide at what point they consider it epic enough.
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Buraken v2
Originally by: Pewpewdude not for the removal of big fleets, but the reduction of 20 on 1 ganking
Why is this? Are you an ID*OT (guess the word)? Do you ever think the russians looked at each other and went? "Geez guys, we are alot more then the germans, better send a bunch of guys home, better keep if fair *hugs and kisses each other*"
DO YA?
Do you think the americans turned around and went straight back home because some **** officer went "Iz not fair ya, you are too many!"
Genius, go play WoW. In numbers there is strength.
Oh man, if Leonidas went to Xerxes "d00d, you're arrows are bloating out the sun, we're only 300, BLOB LOOL ROFL!11!1", good times.
I don't understand which camp you are on. You say that more numbers is the way it should be played, but then you say "Go play WoW" where numbers do lead to the win. I don't understand what you are trying to get across with that statement.
Are you suggesting that Eve should be like WoW? Or is it just a random result of too much flammage. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
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Buraken v2
Amarr Defence Initiative
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CaptainSeafort
Originally by: Buraken v2 <flammage>
thge point isnt to force the breakup, but to reduce the effectiveness. you yourself are taking the WoW approach of "we have more guys, ergo we win". eve is about a more in-depth experience. therefore, having 200 people shoot one guy is a patently retarded strategy. as eve players seem not to be using their brains in fleet fights (except a notable few), they havent realsied that focus fire works best with groups of 5-10, not the entire fleet -.-
so, before you go whining about "WoW play sux, lol, numbers win!" think about how you come over.
how is your night elf, btw?
You're post is moot and waste of time. Why reduce the effectiveness of using large numbers? Eve is not about an in-depth experience mate on fleet battles, where did you get that from? You shoot whoever is primary. Obviously it can if you want it to of course, but it doesn't need to if you just want to wipe of another enemies fleet easy peasy and you do have a lot more pilots to use, you cant argue with this, lets move on. And why is having 200 people shoting 1 guy retarded? :S Now honestly think before you write the answer to that question. Using 200 people to kill ONE guy alone is obviously a bit "overkill" as they say, but there is nothing at all wrong with it whatsoever, period.
If you see a enemyfleet coming towards you're location and the are 20 people lets say and you bring 200 people, again NOTHING wrong with that. WHY SHOULD IT? Why should corp A be penalized because they can and do bring 10 times as more people then they are facing? Good on them I say mate, are they cowards? You might think so because you are in the fleet that is 20 and not 200, but the bigger fleet shouldn't be penalized because they want to be on the safe side of the odds of winning. Albeit per pilot they are not as effective as corp B perhaps, but this doesn't matter at all in this discussion, because the point is to win the battle and move on.
Oh and this argument doesn't only go for 200+ fleet battles of course, its any combat in eve.
Eerr, I don't feel like i explained myself well enough to be honest, I hope you understand what I meant. In numbers there is strength. And no this is not an alt, never been in goon etc
Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne
2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Utopian Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Originally by: Buraken v2 Do you think the americans turned around and went straight back home because some **** officer went "Iz not fair ya, you are too many!"
RL war isn't about fun and in RL you have to take it like it comes, because there is no 3rd party (devs), who can balance things to make battles 'enjoyable' for everyone. But EVE is a game and there are devs, who try to balance it in a way that we have fun, because if we don't have fun, we leave the game and they don't get our money.
Doesn't mean that I don't gank a hostile, when the opportunity arises, but those RL comparisons fail. If I got blobbed each day by 300 people and pvp wasn't fun anymore, then I'd play something else.
Go play something else then.
This is not an action game. It's a simulation and strategy game!
------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first." |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Plutoinum
Originally by: Buraken v2 Do you think the americans turned around and went straight back home because some **** officer went "Iz not fair ya, you are too many!"
RL war isn't about fun and in RL you have to take it like it comes, because there is no 3rd party (devs), who can balance things to make battles 'enjoyable' for everyone. But EVE is a game and there are devs, who try to balance it in a way that we have fun, because if we don't have fun, we leave the game and they don't get our money.
Doesn't mean that I don't gank a hostile, when the opportunity arises, but those RL comparisons fail. If I got blobbed each day by 300 people and pvp wasn't fun anymore, then I'd play something else.
Go play something else then.
This is not an action game. It's a simulation and strategy game!
Bleh, post with your main. ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Buraken v2
Amarr Defence Initiative
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dei
I don't understand which camp you are on. You say that more numbers is the way it should be played, but then you say "Go play WoW" where numbers do lead to the win. I don't understand what you are trying to get across with that statement.
Are you suggesting that Eve should be like WoW? Or is it just a random result of too much flammage.
I have no idea what you meant by that post. I didn't say eve SHOULD be played with more numbers per blob, I said If you CAN and want to use 100 people to kill 5 people, go ahead mate, cheers for that, sux to be the 5 guys.
And about the WoW thing I meant it as "EVE is clearly not the game for you, go play some other crappy game" in a sense :]
Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne
2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Utopian Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Bleh, post with your main.
?
I only have one character.
------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first." |
Hannobaal
Gallente Utopian Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Plutoinum The lag argument beats your point anyway, because at some point, blobbing leads to lag and then it's not a strategy game anymore, but only stupid lag, except you think that generating lag is a nice strategy.
*edit* flame replaced ^^
The above has nothing to do with what you were saying though. The above is an argument regarding large fight with lots of people on both sides.
------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first." |
Cpt Angus
Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:45:00 -
[17]
Its getting to the point now where i try to avoid anything greater than 10 v 10 simply due to the severe frame rate loss and lag issues that ensue.
The fleet options don't help things either with the constant calculations when ships go down or are affected by modules.
I've been in epic fleet fights before a year or two ago, 80 v 80 or maybe more from time to time, yes there was lag, but now the lag for smaller scale engagements is getting seriously bad making them no-fun at all. Bones heal and chicks dig scars
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.04.30 14:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Buraken v2
Originally by: Dei
I don't understand which camp you are on. You say that more numbers is the way it should be played, but then you say "Go play WoW" where numbers do lead to the win. I don't understand what you are trying to get across with that statement.
Are you suggesting that Eve should be like WoW? Or is it just a random result of too much flammage.
I have no idea what you meant by that post. I didn't say eve SHOULD be played with more numbers per blob, I said If you CAN and want to use 100 people to kill 5 people, go ahead mate, cheers for that, sux to be the 5 guys.
And about the WoW thing I meant it as "EVE is clearly not the game for you, go play some other crappy game" in a sense :]
Ok I get ya now. Ta for clearing that up. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:05:00 -
[19]
victor be serious
how many people are totally clueless in a 100+vs100+ fight ?
a lot of them ? most of them?
why would you want fights like that? you want to go watch a movie? cause even if you are one of the top people in charge thats what it is - most people just wont listen even if "trained" in these big alliance battles
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Hannobaal
Gallente Utopian Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:14:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 30/04/2007 15:11:19
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
Originally by: Victor Vision I remember back from the early days in eve when CCP envisioned great fleet battles in eve. CCP and most players were all for it, epic battles ftw...
Now it seems CCP has given up on trying to actually make these fleet fights work, instead lots of energy seems to be put into trying to prevent people from forming big fleets.
I think that is the wrong direction. EVE should have the capeability to handle big fights. Effort should be put into making them work instead of preventing them.
when is it epic enough? and when will the number escalation stop?
A few years back it was epic to have 80vs80, now people seem to want 200vs200, so that leads to he assumption that sometime in the future people will want 400vs400. CCP has to decide at what point they consider it epic enough.
The large battles are a function of the large number of players. The more players you have in the game, the larger will the main alliances be. And the larger they are, then naturally the larger will be the fleets they will be able to field. Because they have more pilots.
And if you are able to field a fleet of a set size, why would you purposefully sent forward a smaller one? There is no reason in the world. It's like being able to equip your ship with tech 2 equipment, having the money to afford buying them and to afford losing them, yet choosing not to do it because it would be "unfair" tp those flying tech 1. No one is going to do that, and they shouldn't do that. Eve simulates war. And in war you use every advantage you have.
The large fleets are a function of the number of players playing the game at present. Simple as that.
------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first." |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:14:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/04/2007 15:13:41
Originally by: Dei
Originally by: Buraken v2
Originally by: Dei
I don't understand which camp you are on. You say that more numbers is the way it should be played, but then you say "Go play WoW" where numbers do lead to the win. I don't understand what you are trying to get across with that statement.
Are you suggesting that Eve should be like WoW? Or is it just a random result of too much flammage.
I have no idea what you meant by that post. I didn't say eve SHOULD be played with more numbers per blob, I said If you CAN and want to use 100 people to kill 5 people, go ahead mate, cheers for that, sux to be the 5 guys.
And about the WoW thing I meant it as "EVE is clearly not the game for you, go play some other crappy game" in a sense :]
Ok I get ya now. Ta for clearing that up.
Moral of the story - never argue with Buraken V2. Many have tried and many have failed :) --
Billion Isk Mission |
Cipher7
Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:15:00 -
[22]
Blobs suck.
5 - 10 people seems to be the sweet spot.
"Reality" arguments are for imbeciles.
When 1 million Russian soldiers blob, they dont have 45 second lag firing their guns.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:23:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/04/2007 15:24:26
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Plutoinum The lag argument beats your point anyway, because at some point, blobbing leads to lag and then it's not a strategy game anymore, but only stupid lag, except you think that generating lag is a nice strategy.
*edit* flame replaced ^^
The above has nothing to do with what you were saying though. The above is an argument regarding large fight with lots of people on both sides.
Maybe I've quoted bad. My point is, if 300 people blob you regularily, then you have two possibilies: 1) Counter with a blob yourself, which ends in crappy gameplay or 2) die outnumbered. Both situations are crap from the fun factor and I know many people, who'd rather quit eve than play that way regularily.
It doesn't matter, if 1000 vs whatever in real life are possible and the more the better is seen as strategy, because in EVE huge numbers make the experience for the opponent crap and lag makes using sophisticated tactics impossible anyway. It can only end with a lag-fest or out-blobbing and then CCP needs to adapt the game mechancs in a way that those mega-blobs in one place (= the same grid) don't happen (*edit* if it exceed the capabilities of the server) ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:29:00 -
[24]
Sadly big epic fleet fights are dull. Shooting da' primary, and blobbing are vaguely irksome, but when you add OMGWTFLAG it gets no fun at all.
There's still fleet fights, and quite frequently, bu ... well, breaking them up too, I feel is good. A bunch of small engagements I feel is much more fun than one ultra-lag-blob instapopping the opposition.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Utopian Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:33:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 30/04/2007 15:29:39
Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/04/2007 15:24:26
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Plutoinum The lag argument beats your point anyway, because at some point, blobbing leads to lag and then it's not a strategy game anymore, but only stupid lag, except you think that generating lag is a nice strategy.
*edit* flame replaced ^^
The above has nothing to do with what you were saying though. The above is an argument regarding large fight with lots of people on both sides.
Maybe I've quoted bad. My point is, if 300 people blob you regularily, then you have two possibilies: 1) Counter with a blob yourself, which ends in crappy gameplay or 2) die outnumbered. Both situations are crap from the fun factor and I know many people, who'd rather quit eve than play that way regularily.
It doesn't matter, if 1000 vs whatever in real life are possible and the more the better is seen as strategy, because in EVE huge numbers make the experience for the opponent crap and lag makes using sophisticated tactics impossible anyway. It can only end with a lag-fest or out-blobbing and then CCP needs to adapt the game mechancs in a way that those mega-blobs in one place (= the same grid) don't happen (*edit* if it exceed the capabilities of the server)
Then the solution is better hardware that can handle battles of that size, right?
Either that or reducing the total number of players in the game.
------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first." |
Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Plutoinum ...because in EVE huge numbers make the experience for the opponent crap and lag makes using sophisticated tactics impossible anyway. It can only end with a lag-fest or out-blobbing and then CCP needs to adapt the game mechancs in a way that those mega-blobs in one place (= the same grid) don't happen.
Like you say, the lag is the problem. I am not convinced there is no way to prevent lag from happening.
Internet connections keep getting faster and faster, thus theoretically lag should be getting less and less. I think the main reason for lag in eve is not internet speed, but programming of the eve client/server. That is why I would rather like to see CCP put more energy into streamlining their code, than discouraging blobs.
For example - as far as I know - each node in eve can use a maximum of 2 processors, even though the cluster obviously has many more.
So lets say there is a large fleet fight, and the main reason for lag is that these 2 processors are running at 100% and simply can not take any more. Solution to this would be to rewrite the code to be able to use more than 2 processores for the neccessary calculations.
That is just one example, though.
Again, my point is CCP should put effort into trying to handle large fleet battles, instead of trying to prevent them.
EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
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Laura Baretta
Minmatar Caelestis Caedes
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Posted - 2007.04.30 15:42:00 -
[27]
Well, I think CCP want's EvE to be as tough and realistic as it can be, so there will be huge fleet battles. If they can some day remove the Lag, no one will complain. Fleet battles are not the Problem, the server Hardware and the limitations that come with it are.
Bringing overwhelming forces is as much a legal tactic as engaging an enemy from two sides. It's simply a tactical element that you use to increase your chance at winning. It's as legal as bringing T2 equipment and should not be regulated.
Intimidating your enemy is a great weapon. Fighters used intimidating shouts to scare their enemies 1000s of years ago. They went for the weakest links 1000s of years ago. They stated exemples by burning cities of civilians just to make a point. War is a horrible thing, it's dirty. When you fight for your live, everything is fair game.
welcome to EvE
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.30 17:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/04/2007 17:12:10 Focussed fire isn't the main problem in my eyes. The biggest blobs don't form to win an unimportant battle just for fun, but to achieve goals in territorial warfare.
A large battlestar pos that needs to be taken down or defended and has a reinforcment timer that ends 4 days later on a weekend => blob , because people have enough time to bring all they can get.
A capital production pos that is said to be building a mothership or titan and needs to be destroyed => blob.
Blobbing has become more important over time and so people form bigger coalitions and blob more. Ok, titans work against blobs, but that also means that they suppress territorial warfare, especially for those that can't field titans, which means that they better join a mega-coalition that helps them out with titans and such things.
I don't see were this is going. Ok, I have an idea, where this is going. Big areas become nap'land and boring most of the time and less variety in the political landscape.
( Hope BoB wins this war. Sounds like a contradiction, but this would smash the current order, not much would be left and it would force a lot of people to rethink and go new ways. ) ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Arx Impera
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.30 17:48:00 -
[29]
Huge blobs in front of eachother is epic, but also laggy.
Dozens of small/med guns swarming systems spanning over constellations in constant fights is also epic. Whereaver you warp, there is a fight. You wont feel like you are in a huge fleet confrontation, but warring everywhere.
At least thats how I think CCP wants to do it.
...who of course promptly went bat****, flipped out and killed some people. |
Constantine Arcanum
IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.
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Posted - 2007.04.30 18:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Buraken v2
"Geez guys, we are alot more then the germans, better send a bunch of guys home, better keep if fair *hugs and kisses each other*"
OH WOW YOU USED A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE IN AN MMO. YOU ARE SUPER COOL.
No seriously, GTFO.
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