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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
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Nozh
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Posted - 2007.05.04 16:43:00 -
[1]
Starbase Warfare 2.0
We've been doing some changes to starbase warfare, these changes are already on Singularity for you to try out:
- All defensive structures are being placed outside the starbase forcefield
- Defensive structures are getting a massive HP boost
- Defensive structures become incapacitated when they've taken a certain amount of damage (atm 1% structure)
- Defensive structures get reactivated once their shield reaches 50% (they need full structure/armor also, remote structure repairers are being made available)
- Improved defensive structure targeting AI
These changes are something youÆll see on Singularity in the weeks to come:
- Structure management - Ability to take control of outside structures
- More types of defensive structures
- Jump bridges (Which allow corporations to link two starbases in nearby systems, granting instantaneous transit between the two (requires sovereignty))
We need a lot of feedback on these changes, please note that the current balancing values are just placeholders at the moment, everything is yet to be tuned. WeÆve created an in-game channel on Singularity called ôstarbase-warfareö where people can discuss the changes, also weÆll be planning some events there to test the changes on a large scale.
Note: Detailed documentation will be released later.
Please try to keep the replies constructive.
Nozh EVE Online |
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Canine Fiend
Minmatar Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.05.04 16:56:00 -
[2]
These plans sound interesting, however I do have a few bits of feedback.
Moving defensive structures outside the POS and then allowing them to be damaged to the point where they can't fight gives things like Supercapitals another unintentional boost. If I can just jump in a doomsday a bases defenses (or in some cases, multiple doomsdays) then taking down a POS is practically a cakewalk.
Will the structures still fire at targets if not under the control of a player? If not, well that's terrible.
One of the biggest things about POS warfare was that an enemy has to commit capitals, and if you set up a tower right, a support fleet will get decimated if they come in and try and help the capitals. This isn't the case now as the capitals will just take out all defensive structures first. (Do defensive structures mean hardeners as well? Because killing the hardeners before shooting the POS is just silly too)
Will capital ships be able to use the aforementioned jump portals? I foresee a freighter making 3 jumps to a 0.0 home system, where the only danger is the first or second jump through 0.0 to get to the sovereignty claiming POS.
I also think supercapitals should not be immune to ECM put out by towers, think about it... Our little ships might not be able to lock down a massive ship like a titan, but a POS? With Tons of Grid and CPU with those massive scramblers and ECM? This would also help solve that pesky Bumping ships out of a bubble problem.
Just a few thoughts, sorry if I rambled a bit.
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anta baka
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:02:00 -
[3]
Edited by: anta baka on 04/05/2007 16:59:15 MS immune to srambling and any EW? check MS able to spit out ****ton of drones? check MS able to tank a pos? check thanks to HP boost Guns shooting at drones/fighters? no
whats stopping the mothership then from rapping the **** out of the pos... besides having someone sit at the POS for 23/7
thats a real improvement of POS warfare
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Righteous Fury
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:08:00 -
[4]
This is going to lead to a multitude of problems with pos warfare, I'm reserving this spot for my reasoning why,
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Gai Servos
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:13:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gai Servos on 04/05/2007 17:13:24 I thought you were gonna give small gangs ability to kill something :(. You primised but bah.
Again hitting the usefulness of solo and small gang PvP. You want us out of blolb and all your actions make it more blobby
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IntegralHellsing
Gallente The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:14:00 -
[6]
uh..... defensive structure outside forcefield? so people can just blob the defensive structure with massive cap fleet and kill the remaining control tower easily while the support warps in without any fear of enemy pos pew pewing their ships into pieces?
i don't think so. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes by 21922 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
viceman
Caldari Without Reason
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:19:00 -
[7]
well I think this is great for small corps as they can now figth a pos without havign a bunch of dreads or a ****load of bs' --------------------- Ex-benwallace :P I am back foo! |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Canine Fiend
Will capital ships be able to use the aforementioned jump portals? I foresee a freighter making 3 jumps to a 0.0 home system, where the only danger is the first or second jump through 0.0 to get to the sovereignty claiming POS.
Since freighters can use Titan based jump portals, I would assume that the answer is yes they can.
This should be interesting - freighter loads of materials moving from lowsec (Titan) to anywhere in 0.0 nearly instantaneously. That will almost certainly cause an increase in super capital production... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:21:00 -
[9]
Structures outside forcefield:
This should be optional. Those outside of the forcefield should be controllable, those inside should be automated (as they are now, or even with "improved" ai support) - otherwise any afk pos is vulnerable, this should not be the case, gangs of laser bs should not be able to engage in timezone wars against a POS.
(I'll go on SiSi to see these for myself later this weekend, for now though...:)
HP Boost:
How massive? What resistances? Will dread guns be able to hit them? Citadel torps? (aka what sig radius etc?)
Structures incapacitated:
Not a fan of this, would prefer to see a reduced ROF / damage output, and the balance of this change also depends on whether they can be repaired whilst the pos is in reinforced mode etc?
Reactivation:
Linked to above, structures should not be deactivated, only reduced in effectiveness and only returning to 100% capability at X %.
Improved AI:
Meaning? Shooting at one target at a time? Applying to all guns? Some guns allowed inside the shields? Details plz.
Structure Control:
Kewl... pending balance / implementation.
More types of defensive structure:
Will they use cpu? If so, they're pointless.
Jump bridges:
(Have my babies?) How will they work? Range (linked to skills?) Cost? Details plz!
I look forward to the notes :) Reikoku Diplomatic Forums |
Spikum
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Spikum on 04/05/2007 17:21:00 In my opinion there should be atleast two types of poses:
1: Complete Logistic pos, with weak self defence but able to "fitt" Miningmods and all this producing stuff
2: Sovereignity only, tanked and high damage dealing with the restriction to have like only 3 per system or whatever
pos spam ftl imho :(
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Ozstar
Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ozstar on 04/05/2007 17:21:26
Originally by: anta baka thats a real improvement of POS warfare
Do something constructive and help them test it.
Looking forward to seeing how this develops and will help you test it if i can.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hllaxiu That will almost certainly cause an increase in super capital production...
I have no issue with increased production, my current issue is that (ms / titans) cannot be held down. We need capital warp scramblers, this will result in alot more dieing to counter the easier production. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Hllaxiu That will almost certainly cause an increase in super capital production...
I have no issue with increased production, my current issue is that (ms / titans) cannot be held down. We need capital warp scramblers, this will result in alot more dieing to counter the easier production.
Absolutely agreed - should be a module for carriers or something like that. I do not like the idea of having a huge boost in super cap production before such a change, but this is the correct thread for that. CCP needs to understand that this will vastly decrease the distances for minerals in eve. Though, I imagine that they know that...
I'm somewhat skeptical regarding the defenses changes, but this should all become more clear once its on SISI... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Jordan Musgrat
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:34:00 -
[14]
Allowing POS fire to be focused is a major improvement... That needs to be balanced. We'll have to see how much HP the guns will get, and I assume it's only guns right? Not hardeners for sure. Though if you feel that poses would just be that powerful, maybe it wouldn't be so bad as long as pos messages now come when any defensive structure reaches half shield or something, and with the jump bridge, it shouldn't be too hard to get someone in there for pos defense. I also wonder if pos defense GUI will be like a regular ship... a bunch of buttons, you can choose who to web/scramble/etc.... If so, then having to risk hardeners doesn't sound too bad.... It's all about how much control you give the players vs. risk of defensive structures.
But allowing freighters through the jump bridge will have huge side effects, I don't think you will want this in the end. High end mins will reach alltime lows, and empire mining will most likely be much better than 0.0 mining. Right now it's messed up enough as is.
But lol, this will encourage huge fleets of dreads/carriers.... They will need many to take a pos down quickly, and have enough to remote rep each other. Which will in turn cause more lag than ever before. Are you prepared for this? Or are you introducing features at the cost of playability, once again. Fix the lag before you make it worse please. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Righteous Fury
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.05.04 17:35:00 -
[15]
Actually, another problem with the jump bridge as well. While creating a very interesting way to move forces about quickly without the need of a titan, you're also creating a huge defensive requirement for those under attack.
With current POS fueling/deployment mechanics, its unfeasble to claim soverignity in every system an alliance owns (every constellation for that matter). With the possibility of a hostile force dropping a POS in some remote, unclaimed system, it would be simple for them to claim sov, deploy a jump bridge from a cyno-ed in mothership or carrier, and then use that as a backdoor into a hostile region.
While it creates some brilliant tactical strategy, it also requires that the only possible defense against this is either a) constant scans of systems with literally hundreds of moons - OR the deployment of a POS in every solarsystem in every region to counter hostile soverignity claims.
To be honest, the jump bridge capability should only be possible once alliance constellation soveriginty is implemented, and then worked into those mechanics, instead of putting it in the game before its ready.
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Astasia Orian
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Astasia Orian on 04/05/2007 18:08:47 Echoing Dian's comments (especially the skepticism on timezone warfare) with one major difference.
I'm extremely dubious on the need for a jump bridge to be implemented. Part of doing logistics in 0.0 is and should be risk. You manage your logistics properly or invest 60+bn in a Titan (which even then is limited by the pilot's play hours and opportunity cost of not having it out DDing people).
On the other hand it will likely make logistics a lot more attractive to a lot of people. I suppose I just don't care for the dilution of a specialist task.
I'd prefer to see the bridge implementation discussed earlier, which involved the pos tranferring its product directly to a station via the bridge rather than free static Titanbridge for everyone.
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Haldor Gret
Minmatar ARK-CORP
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nozh Jump bridges (Which allow corporations to link two starbases in nearby systems, granting instantaneous transit between the two (requires sovereignty))[/list] Nozh EVE Online
Everyone seemed to have missed he says two Starbases. i would assume this mean no jumping from a titan or mothership to a starbase. In Rust We Trust Duct Tape Forever |
Tarnish Katharr
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dianabolic Long Post...
Rather odd to be saying this but I agree with Dianabolic's post entirely.
As another concern, how many Titan Doomsdays will it take to totally wipe out a POS's defensives?
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doctor lol
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:24:00 -
[19]
A lot of people are complaining that this will make it easy for super capitals to take down the POS equipment outside of the force field. Solution: Anti Titan POS weapons : devil : yarr etc |
DeadProphet
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tarnish Katharr
Originally by: Dianabolic Long Post...
Rather odd to be saying this but I agree with Dianabolic's post entirely.
As another concern, how many Titan Doomsdays will it take to totally wipe out a POS's defensives?
the way things are now anchored structures are not effected by the doomsday afaik.
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XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 04/05/2007 18:44:03
Originally by: Spikum Edited by: Spikum on 04/05/2007 17:21:00 In my opinion there should be atleast two types of poses:
1: Complete Logistic pos, with weak self defence but able to "fitt" Miningmods and all this producing stuff
2: Sovereignity only, tanked and high damage dealing with the restriction to have like only 3 per system or whatever
pos spam ftl imho :(
Agreed 100%. I think we all understand the need to reduce long drawn out pos warfare, I don't see how these changes move us in that direction tbh.
The ability to focus fire the guns may present some interesting concepts though, however this will change current tactics only slightly from how they occur today (especially if they can be deactivated).
If someone can control the firing of guns, can they shoot drones?
I like the idea of the jumpgates (it's been talked about for a while, glad to see it may come to fruition). But as asked before, whats the maximum distance? Is fuel required? Skills? What type of ships will be able to jump through these gates?
I hope this is step 1 of more pos changes to come.
The jumpportals raise interesting concerns, even beyond freightors. Is there a delay between activating jumpportals, or could you move an entire fleet across the map in a matter of seconds?
--- Siggy Starts Here---
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
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Glaren
Eagle Inc. Warlike Handicraft Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nozh Starbase Warfare 2.0
.......
Defensive structures become incapacitated when they've taken a certain amount of damage (atm 1% structure)
..................
Nozh
This seems to imply that defensive structure can not be destroyed until the pos tower is destroyed. Else, why wouldn't someone just finish off the last %1 of structure. Is this correct?
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Miyau
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.05.04 18:47:00 -
[23]
Won't jump bridges put an end to incidental PvP within alliance regions? How will I be able to go harrass my enemy if they're all travelling about invincibly and invisibly using jump bridges? |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.04 19:15:00 -
[24]
New Skill (replaces starbase tactical officer) Infrastructure Tactical Officer Skill at using starbase weapon systems. Allows control of one array per level. Arrays must be placed outside of the forcefield to be contolled.
Can not be trained on Trial Accounts.
Rank 7, Memory/Charisma (corporate management skill)
Requires Starbase Management 5
Starbase Management (new skill afaik) Skill at setting up Starbases
Rank 4, memory/charisma
Requires Corporate Management 4, mechanic 3. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
iqplayer
Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.05.04 19:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Miyau Won't jump bridges put an end to incidental PvP within alliance regions? How will I be able to go harrass my enemy if they're all travelling about invincibly and invisibly using jump bridges?
I have to imagine that it will cost fuel to jump bridge between POS, just like it does with the Titan. I suppose it would be possible to make every move via the bridge, but you'd be paying a price for the safety, which seems fair, subject to balance of the cost. More likely though, it will mean that the bridge is used for important shipments, and to move defensive forces into a system, helping to end fleet battles at gates, which can cause massive lag problems at jump in.
I like the jumpbridge idea, though of course like everything in Eve, it will need balance. It does help to give a little more advantage to an entrenched defender, which is sorely needed.
POS defenses - well, I guess we'll see won't we? The thing is, at current damage outputs, a well tanked dread can cope with any amount of large guns you can fit on a POS, and that will have to change for the moving of guns outside a POS to work. Frankly, this isn't a simple change, and I hope that all the angles are examined and thought out before it's tossed onto Tranq. For us players though, I guess the point is - if you're worried about the balance, load up Sisi and try it out.
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Grytok
German Kings The Fifth Race
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Posted - 2007.05.04 19:51:00 -
[26]
You gotta be kidding, right?
This makes it absolutely impossible for small Corps/Allys to defend at least a little bit of space
Yay, for the big Allys...
Well at least make it so, that the Starbase Officer can concentrate fire of all guns to one target, so the guns can actually try to take down a Dread. But I tried to kill a Thanatos on Sisi with a deathstar... meh, not really that great defense, a POS has so far.
I'd say: LEAVE IT ALONE! .
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Murukan
Minmatar Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.05.04 19:51:00 -
[27]
The jump bridges on pos are an absolute horrible horrible idea. This will really kill small gangs even more.
Enemies will be able to completely bypass roaming gangs now through pos that a small gang can't hope to take out (since pos warfare is the suck no thx). So now we will be forced to just camp 0.0 entrance points, and frankly that gets boring after about 30 minutes.
Also it will allow the enemy to quickly bring a blob to the general area of your gang to blob you away. This will make it even harder to avoid blobs as they can jump around quickly cutting you off.
Please please please don't do this. Small gangs already are hard enough and take more skill than noob alliance blob warfare, and you guys are trying to kill it off completely. WTF!!!!
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Lars Erlkonig
Caldari GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.04 20:18:00 -
[28]
Nozh,
You were looking for an online POS earlier in FD- and I told you the location of one that I had helped set up in X-M2LR. I went to check on it later, and found all of the modules - including all the non-defensive ones (ship hangers, moon harvesters, etc) - were outside of the shields and were all missing a majority of their shield HP. Did you use a doomsday device on that POS? So do alliances now have the ability to just DD away everything outside the POS so they can attack it with impunity? Are making titans into solo pwn mobiles that good of an idea?
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iqplayer
Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.05.04 20:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grytok You gotta be kidding, right?
This makes it absolutely impossible for small Corps/Allys to defend at least a little bit of space
Yay, for the big Allys...
Well at least make it so, that the Starbase Officer can concentrate fire of all guns to one target, so the guns can actually try to take down a Dread. But I tried to kill a Thanatos on Sisi with a deathstar... meh, not really that great defense, a POS has so far.
I'd say: LEAVE IT ALONE!
??? The whole point of moving the guns outside is so that the Starbase role will allow fire control, but the OP already stated this wasn't active yet on Sisi. It will be interesting to see how this affects defense, but against smaller enemies, it *should* be an improvement.
However, I do agree with you that the guns may need a bit of a boost to damage - keep in mind that POS guns were originally created/balanced against capital ships *before* the huge cap HP boost, and more importantly, before Rigs. Maybe tweak the L POS guns so that they can only hit Capitals, and boost their damage a bit? Or create an XL turret that uses the same XL ammo but a higher damage mult, and reduce the tracking on it so that it can only hit Capitals?
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xeom
Exit 13 Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.04 20:29:00 -
[30]
Fantastic,So the answer to all this POS stuff is to simply move the guns outside!
Good job CCP. --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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