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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 06/05/2007 15:52:54
There are 20 science fields / invention fields in eve, of which Mech eng is just one.
21% of all module invention requires mech eng cores.
100% of ship invention requires mech eng cores, with ship invention having the lowest success rate and the highest cost in cores (x8 for HACs, x16 for Command ships, compared to x2 for most modules per invention job).
46% of Rigs require mech eng cores
It would appear CCP are going to make drone and ammo invention 100% require mech eng cores: Linkage
There is no cost as such now that ppl can cash in their cores before they switch fields / R&D agents. However, the best Mech Eng agents are all in Minmatar space, so ultimately the other races will lose out if people want to run missions for say Caldari State and still have a competitive or "the best" Mech Eng agents in Minmatar space
I would suggest that long term, this will damage invention and the game in general as it essentially nerfs non-Minmatar or those unwilling to run missions for Minmatar agents
Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting! |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:59:00 -
[2]
Invention works reasonably well right now, how will it be damaged in the future by the lack of non-minmattar Mechanical Engineering research agents?
P.S. Try getting anything other than Rocket Science and Laser Physics from Amarr research agents. <sig> IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB Post! And other such forum tom-foolery. Join my Corporation! Can I lock sigs for tom-follery? - Ductoris |
Le Skunk
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:59:00 -
[3]
Nerf this - Nerf That.
I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above |
Craig Ankers
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.06 16:04:00 -
[4]
I had 4/5 of my rnd agent from a caldari corp working on mec eng - rougly 4+ cores aday - theres hardly alot to worry about. I cant see the prices staying the same tho. Regards Craig Ankers Former COO - Si-Fi Si-Fi Website
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 16:16:00 -
[5]
Perhaps I'm approaching this from the wrong angle:
--- My Story I have a Caldari character (this char). It is my only character (since I have 1 account and the other two chars are just throwaway alts).
I decide to run missions for Caldari corps (as would seem logical). Later on I come to get into the invention game. I'd like to source my own cores, but rapidly find that the majority of stuff I have an interest in inventing (either caldari modules like BCS II, or those modules with the greatest profit margins) require Mech eng cores.
There aren't many high level mech eng agents in Caldari corps, and are generally of a lower quality than say Minmatar agents
So, I find I've in fact been disadvantaged, simply by the race of character I chose. Even if you could argue that I could have run Minmatar agents from the start, when I first started the game I wouldn't have known about R&D agents, or perhaps only later considered getting into invention, where before I wouldn't have factored in who had the best R&D agents into who I run missions for. ---
Now for some facts:
Caldari have the most players, and Caldari regions are some of the most densely populated areas in the game
Minmatar (I believe) have the least players.
So, say CCP look at this and say "What can we do to encourage ppl to play Minmatar". Invention happens and slowly, over time, more and more people get the word that Minmatar are a good choice to play for or run missions for, due to their natural R&D agent advantage
Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting! |
Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.06 17:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
Perhaps I'm approaching this from the wrong angle:
--- My Story I have a Caldari character (this char). It is my only character (since I have 1 account and the other two chars are just throwaway alts).
I decide to run missions for Caldari corps (as would seem logical). Later on I come to get into the invention game. I'd like to source my own cores, but rapidly find that the majority of stuff I have an interest in inventing (either caldari modules like BCS II, or those modules with the greatest profit margins) require Mech eng cores.
There aren't many high level mech eng agents in Caldari corps, and are generally of a lower quality than say Minmatar agents
So, I find I've in fact been disadvantaged, simply by the race of character I chose. Even if you could argue that I could have run Minmatar agents from the start, when I first started the game I wouldn't have known about R&D agents, or perhaps only later considered getting into invention, where before I wouldn't have factored in who had the best R&D agents into who I run missions for. ---
Now for some facts:
Caldari have the most players, and Caldari regions are some of the most densely populated areas in the game
Minmatar (I believe) have the least players.
So, say CCP look at this and say "What can we do to encourage ppl to play Minmatar". Invention happens and slowly, over time, more and more people get the word that Minmatar are a good choice to play for or run missions for, due to their natural R&D agent advantage
If that was indeed their intentions they should've at least spread it amongst both amarr and minmatar.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.06 18:44:00 -
[7]
You can't possibly expect the poor, downtrodden Caldari players to go to minmatar agents. That'll just make people quit eve. Caldari missioners and researchers have it bad enough already. This would just make it impossible to make any isk at all as caldari.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.06 20:05:00 -
[8]
if all races and different empire areas were the same then what would be the fun of any of it ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.06 20:07:00 -
[9]
As I see it, it is "simple", A inventor wanting to be almost self sufficent (almost as he will always need a some outside item, form market or from his alliance), need to devote about 1/3 of his R&D agents to mechanical engineering.
That can be a alt developed for that (about 2 month of training, 100 millions of isk and a good number of missions for the standing) or a main character who split his agent.
In reality a character developed only for the Mechanical Engineering datacores is more efficent as you can get 5 agents and Mech Eng at 5 in a reasonable time, gaining most of the standing doing the R&D missions and being careful to get the storyline from the same corporation from wich you are researching (done that , it is relatively easy).
Simply it is not possible to get all the needed datacores with only 1 character, even with 6 agents. You will need to train a lot of R&D skills in different fields, so getting them to 5 will be hard, and the RP return correspondingly low.
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Qolde
Minmatar Guardian Heroes Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.06 20:17:00 -
[10]
Just another guy trying to keep the black man down. Funny, minmatar have no unique advantages in battle (speed? lol), and now you want to take away his only hope to stay away from selling drugs and robbing people in lowsec? Never get popped again! |
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Slate Fistcrunch
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2007.05.07 05:58:00 -
[11]
They should consider a datacore exchange agent. Turn in 3 datacores of any type for 1 datacore of your choice.
Not having mechanical engineering datacores available to all races when all races need them to invent their ships doesn't make sense.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.05.07 06:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Frug You can't possibly expect the poor, downtrodden Caldari players to go to minmatar agents. That'll just make people quit eve. Caldari missioners and researchers have it bad enough already. This would just make it impossible to make any isk at all as caldari.
Just,,, lol,,,, Improve Market Competition! |
Halock
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Posted - 2007.05.07 06:31:00 -
[13]
Caldari get comparable amounts of mech eng r&d agents, at much lower standing req's.....take a look at kaalakiota ( spelling? )
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.05.07 07:04:00 -
[14]
/signed.
The OP quotes some surprising stats which seem to defy a sensible explanation. Mech Eng is just one research field from 20 but has a huge bias to its importance in invention. That there is a racial bias to this field just further skews this.
I don't like the use of nerfing to change things since ultimately the game loses its diversity, but balancing invention across more of the R&D fields or increasing racial access to Mech Eng agents would remove this bottleneck which I honestly can't see a sensible reason for. I have 6 R&D agents- and yes you guessed it I don't have easy access to Mech Eng. To get this would need a whole lot of Minmatar mission whorring, so I either sell my datacores and buy mech eng, or I can't be so self-sufficient in my invention.
Not whining or crying, just pointing out what appears to be an imbalance without an obvious justification.
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Halock
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Posted - 2007.05.07 07:23:00 -
[15]
did you read what i said? mission ***** with caldari for less time than you would with minmatar and you'll have pretty much the same amount of datacores as if you did minmatar.
They should lower the amount of things that need mech eng to invent, but people cryin about how minmatar have all the r&d agents is a little bit of an exageration. People making r&d alts run kaalakiota, you can fill 5 r&d agents in that one corp, to get 5 with minmatar you have to go across 2 corps, boundless creation and cor complex, both of which you have to grind up past 6.o standing, you dont cross 6 wiht kal.
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.05.07 07:41:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akkarin Pagan on 07/05/2007 07:38:25 Yup, your right, nerf it and ignore the back story that states that the Minmatar are masters of the mechanial engineering field.
You never catch me working for the Caldari so that the Amarr will stop shooting me!!!!
Just grind out some standing with the Minmatar, and then you have access to the high quality mechanical engineering R&D agents. A much simpler and easier solution to your problem than having CCP trawl through the database, and change qualities of agents and types of cores dropped.
The tools are there, all you need to do is use them.
Akkarin
EDIT:spellung Hopefully the mods won't play with this one
<3 - Immy
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.05.07 07:41:00 -
[17]
Edited by: CampyloBacter on 07/05/2007 07:39:36 Edited by: CampyloBacter on 07/05/2007 07:39:18
Originally by: Halock did you read what i said? mission ***** with caldari for less time than you would with minmatar and you'll have pretty much the same amount of datacores as if you did minmatar.
-5.5 with Caldari FYI, so there isn't a Caldari agent in Eve who'd even P-iss on me if I was on fire. And I seem to recall that I pointed out that I wasn't crying, just trying to reconcile what seems to be a genuine balance issue across a large proportion of invention for a reason I can't work out.
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.05.07 07:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CampyloBacter Edited by: CampyloBacter on 07/05/2007 07:39:36 Edited by: CampyloBacter on 07/05/2007 07:39:18
Originally by: Halock did you read what i said? mission ***** with caldari for less time than you would with minmatar and you'll have pretty much the same amount of datacores as if you did minmatar.
-5.5 with Caldari FYI, so there isn't a Caldari agent in Eve who'd even P-iss on me if I was on fire. And I seem to recall that I pointed out that I wasn't crying, just trying to reconcile what seems to be a genuine balance issue across a large proportion of invention for a reason I can't work out.
You could of course go work for the Amarr for a bit, this will help raise your standings to the Caldari, or if it is mech cores your after, you prolly have access to the Minmatar agents already, adn if not, it won't take you long to get there. I'd imagine that your standings to Gallente are pretty good if your Caldari ones are so sucky.
Akkarin
Hopefully the mods won't play with this one
<3 - Immy
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:03:00 -
[19]
True, I've toying with the idea of starting some Min R&D agents for a while now. One of the reasons I expressed my view though was to see if anyone had any ideas why mech eng has such a widespread presence in invention, when compared to virtually all the other R&D fields, nothing even come close to its frequency.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:03:00 -
[20]
Back in the day when ppl used the agents to get points for the BPO lotteries, the agents that now give out mech eng had a chance of giving absolute bull**** BPOs. Hence, not many ppl actually used said agents. Now, when the last BPO lotteries were held, most ppl started cashing in their points and got loads of non-mecheng datacores, resulting in low prices of other datacores and quite high prices for ME. That is the reason for their absurd price atm. If you think about it from a RP point of view, everything that has a frame or shell of some type requires a bit of mechanical engineering... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:07:00 -
[21]
This is not a problem. There are 20 fields of research. Currently, the division of agents is still mostly based on what kind of T2 BPO people were gunning for. As time passes, people will cash in their RPs and shift to agents that give more valuable datacores. For example I already shifted 2 agents to mechanical engineering.
In a few months time, the price of Mech Engineering datacores should be not significantly different from other datacores, since everyone and their mother who are currently getting R&D agents for datacores, will do so for agents with mech engineering datacores. So short term, yes, there is real profit to be made from Mech Engineering datacores, but that will correct itself as more people get these agents.
The ONLY issue we might see is if the division of agent fields over the various quality of agents is significantly skewed (i.e. if Rocket Science is available from all level 4, Q20 agents, while Quantum Physics is only available from L1 Q -20 agents. In that case you would see Quantum Physics datacore be more expensive in the long run, because people would be getting less of these datacores per week than other types of datacores from higher quality agents.
signature removed - please contact us to find out why (include the URL of your sig) - Jacques([email protected]) |
Roemy Schneider
Swingline LLC
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:09:00 -
[22]
ehhh no...?
there's more to t2 production than just invention. and if you have a closer look at the t2 ingredients (blueprints->components->ship components - for those who post here without knowing these), you'll see that mechanical engineering doesn't pop up anywhere among their production.
mech.eng appearing this often in invention is merely a correction to the ole' t2 concept: finally every field plays a role.
apart from that: the difference between the top5 caldari and minnie agents is what? 20%? what's next? demanding that alloyed tritanium bars shall be dropped by guristas?
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:36:00 -
[23]
Edited by: CampyloBacter on 07/05/2007 08:32:58
Originally by: Roemy Schneider ehhh no...?
there's more to t2 production than just invention. and if you have a closer look at the t2 ingredients (blueprints->components->ship components - for those who post here without knowing these), you'll see that mechanical engineering doesn't pop up anywhere among their production.
mech.eng appearing this often in invention is merely a correction to the ole' t2 concept: finally every field plays a role.
Ahhh silly me, Mech Eng needed some love so it was made a fundamental part of invention (which i mistakenly believed WAS the future of T2 production) across the entire most profitable part of invention, ie. ships, and if that weren't enough, drones AND T2 Ammo as well??
Seems like OVER-correction to me!
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Oxigun
Inebriated Consortium Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:38:00 -
[24]
I turned in my caldari starship engineering agents, went to increase my minmatar standings and now got 5 Minmatar agents running on MechEng. I don't see anything being wrong here.
If you're after decent shield mods, you go to gurrista space .. why you can't go to minmatar space if you need the cores so badly is beyond me.
Cerberus Sales |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:43:00 -
[25]
What do you want? Endless free isk?
Competition is the heart of Eve!
If you find that invention with mech datacores are not profitable enough, switch to something else or give it up completely.
Looks like you do not understand how the market works. If mech datacores are too expensive, people will stop buying them so the price will drop automatically. At the moment the price is quite fine for most things.
If you really want a nerf, then don't fool with the datacores but change the ship requirements and success rates! It is quite difficult to invent ships at the moment, higher success rates would be nice or half the datacores necessary .
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Xaroth Brook
Minmatar Doomcraft Mech Ops Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:51:00 -
[26]
thank **** for grinding Gallente missions then... got enough standing with some Boundless agents.. got 4 of em and each of em spew out around 50 RP a day on average...
on the other hand, I picked Mech Engi because like half of the T2 bpo's also are listed in the mech engi field...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Xaroth Brook [Datacore - Quantum Physics] x 40
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.05.07 08:59:00 -
[27]
My point here has not been to whine that I can't have stuff for free, nor that I'm bitter about there being no Gallente mech eng agents. In fact, I'm not far away from having as many mech eng agents as I can get in Minmatar space. The point I was trying to make was that I cannot work out a logical reason (and so far no-one here has given one) for Mech eng being present across such a wide proportion of the invention profession when compared to other R&D areas.
I have no interest in nerfing anything, just a wish to know if there is an intelligent design basis to this situation or whether it was done arbitrarily.
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.05.07 10:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
apart from that: the difference between the top5 caldari and minnie agents is what? 20%? what's next? demanding that alloyed tritanium bars shall be dropped by guristas?
I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but this is just wrong. There are only two level 4 mechanical engineering agents for the Caldari/Amarr side, qualities -14 and -17. If you are already using them, there is no way to get any more because your standings will probably not allow you to run even level 1 missions for the Minmatar.
I don't see any good reason why you would need those datacores for ALL ships and ALL weapons, but I think we can live with that.
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Elithiomel
Special Circumstances
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Posted - 2007.05.07 10:33:00 -
[29]
How does
Quote: What might happen is I will remove the mech. engineering datacore from all ammo/drone requirements and leave it at 1 datacore, 1 incognito data interface for the drones (scout/medium/heavy) as an example. But inevitably the profit margin available will always be low if not non-existent for many items. I have yet to sit down with Hammerhead and finalise any changes regarding tweaking datacore requirements for modules and ships as I suggested in the blog but that should happen in the next few weeks before the final update is made to sisi.
get translated to
Quote: It would appear CCP are going to make drone and ammo invention 100% require mech eng cores:
? --------------------------------------------- Engineers motto; If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway. |
Ashlan
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Posted - 2007.05.07 11:03:00 -
[30]
It is ironic to have a Caldari player complaining about the quality of his mechanical engineering agents, when Gallente Federation has no mechanical engineering agents and the Amarr have one level one agent. Plus the Caldari agents are mainly in high spec space, whereas the Minmatar ones are mainly in low sec.
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