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Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.07 15:59:00 -
[1]
Before I begin please forgive my poor forum etiquette in posting this as a seperate thread but I believe that it will not be dealt with / put to rest until everyone has had a go at me on it.
I am loathe to answer such droll accusations but it seems that until TornSoul and friends/alts accusations are dealt with that we will still not get an answer to the real issues at hand - which for the record we still don't have an answer to, but I will get to that later.
I believe the accusations are that I am: a liar a blackmailer a briber a general cheat
1) Eefrit is a liar!
It would appear that it is the contention of TornSoul and friends that I "knew the answer to the question before I even posted" my thread questioning BMBE. ( Fell free to correct me if I have this wrong.)
TornSoul has posted an excerpt from a conversation that I had with Ray McCormack as his "proof". Yes, the excerpt is in fact a part of the conversation that I had with Ray, however TornSoul amazingly forgot to post the bit of the conversation prior to that.
What part would that be you ask? Well, that would be the part where after I gave Ray all the numbers that I had that he told me off the record that there had been a default over a year ago of a loan with two Skiff BPOs however I was not given the amount of the loan. Now call me silly but if I give my word that something is off the record I keep it off the record.
Surely that means that you DID in fact know the answer to your question before posting? I still don't have the answer to my question. I knew there was a default on a loan, the details of which had intentionally been kept from investors by TornSoul. In my mind that was not a large concern because I firstly assumed that no-one doing a due diligence would loan more than 5 Bill Isk on each one, but more importantly because TornSoul stated about two months later in one of the BMBE reports that the total BMBE assets were over 100 Bill Isk. My assumption, based entirely on the information given by TornSoul, was that there was a default but that it was fairly small.
I'm sure you can see from that full picture that knowing what I knew did not explain the large financial discrepancies that came to my attention with the December report.
2) Eefrit is a blackmailer!
Yes, I did give TornSoul an ultimatum through Ray that unless he voluntarily disclosed what was going on from the information that I had given Ray, that I would try force it out of him publicly. He had well over a week to respond and confirm if he was going no definite confirmation was given (a possible post as part of the monthly report was mentioned by Ray, but at least to me that was not good enough).
That does not constitute blackmail by any definition that I have ever seen but it most definitely was an attempt to force an answer out of TornSoul.
3) Eefrit is a briber!
TornSoul owns 50% of all profits that BMBE generates. He does not do it as a charity - he does it to make money! And there is nothing wrong with that (if done ethically). TornSoul is right that I offered to effectively pay him 20 Billion Isk to buy out his management rights of BMBE.
My friends, this is called an offer to purchase. The offer was made in as public a manner as possible with all the terms and conditions spelled out for everyone to comment on. I am 100% guilty of offering to buy the management right to BMBE from TornSoul.
4) Eefrit is a general cheat!
To be honest I'm not quite sure what this accusation is of specifically, so I can't answer it specifically.
I would like to think that now that TornSoul has his revenge that we can focus on the issue at hand in the other threads now - namely finding out what on earth has been happening in BMBE?
Sincerely,
Eefrit
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.07 16:05:00 -
[2]
Good post.
I don't think there is much else to say on the topic to be honest. All the facts seem to be pretty much out and unless Tornsoul has something else to admit, I don't think anyone else can be blamed.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
Geldregen
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Posted - 2007.05.07 16:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Geldregen on 07/05/2007 16:18:34
Originally by: Eefrit .... I would like to think that now that TornSoul has his revenge that we can focus on the issue at hand in the other threads now - namely finding out what on earth has been happening in BMBE?
Sincerely, Eefrit
Who made you the stock exchange supervision ?
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 16:26:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think there is much else to say on the topic to be honest.
QFT.
I'm sure Eefrit and TornSoul could wage on for weeks, bringing new detail into play on every little bit of information that has passed between BMBE, the public and Eefrit. This is political - the core of the subject is communication.
It is my impression that new EVE-players may benefit from all mentioned threads in several ways. For instance the importance of being Earnest, and how it's never a good idea not disclose any negative values about yourself before entering a discussion battle.
There really isn't much more to say. It is a matter between BMBE and it's shareholders. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:20:00 -
[5]
Eefrit you are a liar, and you *keep on* lieing in this very post...
Jebus man...
"In my mind that was not a large concern because I firstly assumed that no-one doing a due diligence would loan more than 5 Bill Isk on each one"
So here you are saying, that you think *at most* 10B ISK where loaned. I call bull****.
In the log you say "23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each" So explain please how we would have made a loan of only 5B per BPO, when they, according to you, where worth two or three times that much.
You *knew* very well that more than 10B had been loaned out - The log clearly demonstrates that.
Just stop lieing... We already know you do whenever it suits you, no need keeping demonstrating it.
"My friends, this is called an offer to purchase" Oh please... If the ISK was yours - Then yes! You where effectivly pulling ISK up of shareholder pockets to bribe me. And yes it was a *bribe* - Look at the log.
Eefrit I stand by my post
Eefrit is a liar, blackmailer, briber and a general cheat?
Originally by: Sortiario I'm sure Eefrit and TornSoul could wage on for weeks, bringing new details into play on every little bit of information that has passed between BMBE, the public and Eefrit.
We probably could wage on for weeks - I'll try to restrain myself *except* when Eefrit makes new lies. (which sadly at the going rate could be quite a bit)
BIG Lottery
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sortiario on 07/05/2007 17:24:26
Originally by: TornSoul We probably could wage on for weeks - I'll try to restrain myself *except* when Eefrit makes new lies. (which sadly at the going rate could be quite a bit)
I know political rhetoric when I see it. That is exactly what your above quote is. And the rest of your post, for that matters. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Hexxx on 07/05/2007 17:22:05
Originally by: TornSoul Eefrit you are a liar, and you *keep on* lieing in this very post...
Jebus man...
"In my mind that was not a large concern because I firstly assumed that no-one doing a due diligence would loan more than 5 Bill Isk on each one"
So here you are saying, that you think *at most* 10B ISK where loaned. I call bull****.
In the log you say "23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each" So explain please how we would have made a loan of only 5B per BPO, when they, according to you, where worth two or three times that much.
You *knew* very well that more than 10B had been loaned out - The log clearly demonstrates that.
Just stop lieing... We already know you do whenever it suits you, no need keeping demonstrating it.
"My friends, this is called an offer to purchase" Oh please... If the ISK was yours - Then yes! You where effectivly pulling ISK up of shareholder pockets to bribe me. And yes it was a *bribe* - Look at the log.
Eefrit I stand by my post
Eefrit is a liar, blackmailer, briber and a general cheat?
Originally by: Sortiario I'm sure Eefrit and TornSoul could wage on for weeks, bringing new details into play on every little bit of information that has passed between BMBE, the public and Eefrit.
We probably could wage on for weeks - I'll try to restrain myself *except* when Eefrit makes new lies. (which sadly at the going rate could be quite a bit)
I'm unclear as to how his efforts to buy out your business is a bribe. In business we call this a hostile takeover.
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
And lastly, you're accusations are become more speculative and more baseless, please consider what you're posting because while Eefrit may have done some damage to his own character and reputation, you're quickly catching up with him here.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hexxx
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK.
BIG Lottery
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Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: TornSoul In the log you say "23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each" So explain please how we would have made a loan of only 5B per BPO, when they, according to you, where worth two or three times that much
I'll refrain from answering political rhetoric, but that is a question. The answer is simple really. Had a due diligence been done (even a small one) you would have known that the Skiffs were only selling due to a bug ingame that allowed them to be used effectively as cans for carriers. Even excluding that you had to know that they produced faster than Hulks or Mackinaws, and that the percentage of miners that mined for their speciality mineral represented a tiny fraction (probably 0.1%) of the total miners in Eve. That information alone should have called you to base their value on their medium term profit potential rather than on a current speculative hype.
There is a large difference between what a speculative BPO is selling for and its realistic value as you of all people should know seeing as a key skill needed for BMBE is the ability to accurately mitigate future risk with various BPOs.
Sincerely,
Eefrit
P.S. TornSoul, we both know what information has not been exposed yet with regards to cheating and theft, so I would advise you to quit while you are still ahead so to speak.
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Ricdic on 07/05/2007 17:35:26
OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine! |
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ricdic OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Damn... you got my bad side for that picture.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ricdic OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
I'll refuse to answer any political rhetoric and/or politically manipulated images!
... although it's hilarious. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
TornSoul
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eefrit
Originally by: TornSoul In the log you say "23 (*1*)<Eefrit> a year ago they were being sold for 10-15 Bill Isk each" So explain please how we would have made a loan of only 5B per BPO, when they, according to you, where worth two or three times that much
I'll refrain from answering political rhetoric, but that is a question. The answer is simple really. Had a due diligence been done (even a small one) you would have known that the Skiffs were only selling due to a bug ingame that allowed them to be used effectively as cans for carriers. Even excluding that you had to know that they produced faster than Hulks or Mackinaws, and that the percentage of miners that mined for their speciality mineral represented a tiny fraction (probably 0.1%) of the total miners in Eve. That information alone should have called you to base their value on their medium term profit potential rather than on a current speculative hype.
There is a large difference between what a speculative BPO is selling for and its realistic value as you of all people should know seeing as a key skill needed for BMBE is the ability to accurately mitigate future risk with various BPOs.
Sincerely,
Eefrit
One or two patches had been made already where this issue where *not* fixed, before the loan was taken out. As I recall it there where no tell tail signs that the next patch or the next again would be any different.
Had there been that the loan woudl either not have been made, or valued much differently.
Same caution we use at the moment when we valuate BPO's.
Originally by: Eefrit
P.S. TornSoul, we both know what information has not been exposed yet with regards to cheating and theft, so I would advise you to quit while you are still ahead so to speak.
Oh brother... another extortion attempt??
Seems to be your style.
BIG Lottery
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Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.07 17:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sortiario
Originally by: Ricdic OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
I'll refuse to answer any political rhetoric and/or politically manipulated images!
... although it's hilarious.
ROFL! That really made my day!
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.07 18:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Hexxx
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK.
Wait, and the 40% profit that you pay yourself every month for possibly the worst management of any non-scam public corporation in history isn't "shareholder ISK"? It isn't a "bribe"?
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
R'n'd
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Posted - 2007.05.07 19:19:00 -
[16]
Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
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Barbicane
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.07 19:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ricdic
OMFG you guys won't believe what I found. You have to see this!
Let's see what they have in response to this
LOL, that would be a beautiful illustration to DG's "It's a game" quote
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 19:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sortiario on 07/05/2007 19:34:45
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
Explains the most.
___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 19:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Geldregen Edited by: Geldregen on 07/05/2007 16:18:34
Originally by: Eefrit .... I would like to think that now that TornSoul has his revenge that we can focus on the issue at hand in the other threads now - namely finding out what on earth has been happening in BMBE?
Sincerely, Eefrit
Who made you the stock exchange supervision ?
technically, 1 share of bmbe would do that for him. |
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Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
Indeed..
Besides, i'm on the same team as DS which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Although my major beef is with Baun and not really BMBE.
Although BMBE's management would be most likely criminal in real life.
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Eefrit we both know what information has not been exposed yet with regards to cheating and theft
Please, do not leave it at that.
Mere hinting and repeating more and less veiled accusations fits too well on the Big Lie -method referred elsewhere. Coming out with information showing TS to be real scammer would clear the situation a lot (save for the wonders why did you delay such crucial information).
-Lasse
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
We're talking about something more important than virtual assets and isks. We're talking about reputation, which some would argue is FAR more valuable.
And maybe a bit of pride too.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Hexxx
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK.
Wait, and the 40% profit that you pay yourself every month for possibly the worst management of any non-scam public corporation in history isn't "shareholder ISK"? It isn't a "bribe"?
this is rather right on the money. but it does explain how this corp sells for under the ipo price. that plus it'll take 4ish years to make your original investment back IF divs continue and continue at least what they've done the past couple of months. |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:52:00 -
[25]
What will be Tornsoul's next move? Will he wait and hope that questions will go away? How long can he afford to wait? How will the forums whora respond? Will he attack back? What is the additional info that Eefrit hints at? Will BMBE be sold to Eefrit as is to shut the forums up? Tune it tomorrow for another installment.
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
What was the outcome of that case, anyways? ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Kyguard
Fire Mandrill Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Hexxx
That point aside, could you articulate please as to what you mean when you say that shareholders are paying the price here? That's my big concern.
There is more here, but this one is of interest to me.
The 20B ISK bribe, was not comming out of Eefrits pockets, but out of the BMBE capital.
BMBE capital = shareholder ISK.
Wait, and the 40% profit that you pay yourself every month for possibly the worst management of any non-scam public corporation in history isn't "shareholder ISK"? It isn't a "bribe"?
If it was outlined in the original business plan there's nothing wrong with taking your share of the profits that the shareholders agreed to when they purchased shares. -
Latest Video |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sortiario
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: R'n'd Guys, you're all taking EVE way too serious.
Lighten up, its a game, I do not understand how grown men (well at least I kinda assume you guys are all over 18) bicker in such a nasty tone and form all day long about something as irrelevant as virtual assets & isks.
It's not about ISK. Tornsoul's arrogance makes for good scandals, which are entertaining as heck.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=132046
What was the outcome of that case, anyways?
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
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Sortiario
Fair Trade Organization
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:16:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sortiario on 07/05/2007 21:12:00
Originally by: Rthor
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
I read the first 3 pages. Although I must agree with the other posters; the *revelation* and act TS posted was the best story in EVE I've read - even if it was based on a fake screenie.
How did they find out it was a fake screenshot? ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 21:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sortiario Edited by: Sortiario on 07/05/2007 21:12:00
Originally by: Rthor
Tornsoul's aura of infallibility was punctured. If memory serves right, he let in a guy into BIG who took advantage of BIG rep to do a character scam. Basically the scammer fed TS a fake screenie and TS took it at face value. Scammer got banned for it after some forum commotion uncovered that the screenie was fake and that got CCP to get involved but before it could happen TS attacked a possibly innocent person and protected a definite scammer because he could not comprehend how can it be that anybody in BIG could scam. Since then it is obvious that TS is very proud of BIG and himself, and that is his weakness also.
I read the first 3 pages. Although I must agree with the other posters; the *revelation* and act TS posted was the best story in EVE I've read - even if it was based on a fake screenie.
How did they find out it was a fake screenshot?
I think to some people it seemed strange that the scammer would find it necessary to take a screenshot at the moment of transaction. The guy who "got scammed" said that the screenshot was fake. So since character scams are againts EULA the guy who "got scammed" petitioned and CCP verified that no character transfer took place, hence the screenie was indeed fake.
But even then you do not know for sure if the guy who "got scammed" was not an alt of the scammer or somebody else remotely involved. It is a bit paranoid to think like this but that is how Eve works. Same thing here, if you are paranoid enough, you start wondering why the identity of the guy who sold Skiff BPOs to TS seems to be protected.
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