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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1089
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:21:16 -
[151] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Nai Arto wrote:See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader. I thought you might be with Mr. Soter for a bit, but your rhetorical and language habits are more like Mr. Syagrius. And, actually, it's the repeated self-description as a "simple media observer" that provides one of the links to him. Mr. Syagrius virtually always describes himself as a "humble trader," when asked, and has done for as long as I've known him, even when threatening Dire Consequences. It's kind of a tag line, even. On its face, "simple media observer" follows a different pattern, if only slightly-- minimizing adjective, clarifying adjective, noun, instead of minimizing adjective, noun. Only, "observer" by itself says nothing much without the "media," so the two really ought to be taken as a structural unit. Really, we still have exactly the same pattern-- minimizing adjective, noun-- which you, too, use semi-continuously as a kind of shield. Just like he does. Even the obviousness of the mask is the same, though you might be winking less about it.
Miss Jenneth,
I respect your analysis always.
But this Simple Blonde thinks you are just reading too much into things!
Mr. Sygagrius may be many things besides being a humble trader. A crochety True Amarr, sadly, is not likely to be one of them.
Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3270
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:28:55 -
[152] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:I had no idea that the IGS was so obsessed with ventriloquism. My only guess is that it is another symptom of tragic space dementia, making so many all paranoid and crotchety.
Tsk. Paranoia isn't space dementia. It's simply a survival trait. Everyone around you is looking to kill you, some of them just haven't been offered enough money yet. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3270
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:31:51 -
[153] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years?
Studying the numerous concepts of "Angelic beings" in traditional Amarr beliefs that he refuses to ennumerate. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3522
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Posted - 2017.04.26 17:32:42 -
[154] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Nai Arto wrote:See what I mean about paranoid and crotchety? Also, when did I stop being Soter?
Simple. Media. Observer. It's very different from humble trader. I thought you might be with Mr. Soter for a bit, but your rhetorical and language habits are more like Mr. Syagrius. And, actually, it's the repeated self-description as a "simple media observer" that provides one of the links to him. Mr. Syagrius virtually always describes himself as a "humble trader," when asked, and has done for as long as I've known him, even when threatening Dire Consequences. It's kind of a tag line, even. On its face, "simple media observer" follows a different pattern, if only slightly-- minimizing adjective, clarifying adjective, noun, instead of minimizing adjective, noun. Only, "observer" by itself says nothing much without the "media," so the two really ought to be taken as a structural unit. Really, we still have exactly the same pattern-- minimizing adjective, noun-- which you, too, use semi-continuously as a kind of shield. Just like he does. Even the obviousness of the mask is the same, though you might be winking less about it. Miss Jenneth, I respect your analysis always. But this Simple Blonde thinks you are just reading too much into things! Mr. Sygagrius may be many things besides being a humble trader. A crochety True Amarr, sadly, is not likely to be one of them. Although I do wonder where Mr. Arto has been the last six years?
That's one of the other things that has me suspicious, Praefecta. He's been a member of the Royal Amarr Institute for years, and yet the first we hear of him is him stepping in to object to Ms. Priano objecting to Mr. Soter's egotism. That is, he's an Amarr siding with a Gallentean against a Caldari on a subject (arguable hypocrisy) that's about as common on this forum as, um.
As words are, actually.
He chooses this particular moment, this particular argument, to make himself heard, pro-Gallente, arguably pro-Amarr if only by dint of being one and employed by an Amarrian corporation, anti-Caldari. There's someone we know whose politics that tracks really well.
He's just a humble trader, though.... |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1598
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:42:43 -
[155] - Quote
Almost eight full pages later and there's still this much time and effort spent on this. Feathers have well and truly been ruffled here. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:48:49 -
[156] - Quote
Media observer.
Listen, I know that it is strange and frightening when someone new interrupts the echo chamber around here, but you are quite far off the mark.
I do wonder why it is so strange to you that a high profile media darling would attract criticism in a media related topic like this one. Galactic politics is of little interest to me. Ethics in media analysis is.
It is pure fantasy to impart a political agenda (whether pro-Gallente, or anti-Caldari) simply because I criticize the conduct of individual Capsuleers. Anyway, personal agenda would make more sense. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3523
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 17:51:09 -
[157] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Almost eight full pages later and there's still this much time and effort spent on this. Feathers have well and truly been ruffled here.
Like Arrendis, I don't really need my feathers ruffled to have a lot to say, Miz. My reasons are maybe a little different from hers, but, it's definitely fun for me, too. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1599
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:03:23 -
[158] - Quote
It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:07:24 -
[159] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Media observer.
Listen, I know that it is strange and frightening when someone new interrupts the echo chamber around here, but you are quite far off the mark.
I do wonder why it is so strange to you that a high profile media darling would attract criticism in a media related topic like this one. Galactic politics is of little interest to me. Ethics in media analysis is.
It is pure fantasy to impart a political agenda (whether pro-Gallente, or anti-Caldari) simply because I criticize the conduct of individual Capsuleers. Anyway, personal agenda would make more sense.
Imputation of emotional motives for reasoning. Contemptuous dismissal of that reasoning on a basis that would be mostly obvious to the speaker, if true, but is treated as though it should be obvious to everyone.
You're not helping your case very much, pilot. Though admittedly there are other people who use similar tactics.
A savvy media observer such as yourself would surely be aware: this whole topic, everything to do with The Federal Frontier, is politically fraught. It's a highly partisan piece of work, being presented in a public setting. The stated intent might be "transparency," but the net effect is hard to distinguish from propaganda. You cannot credibly step in on one side of it and claim neutrality unless your neutrality's already really well established. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:26:02 -
[160] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere.
People keep using this "smoke and fire" analogy. Usually I think it's used when you're trying to track down corrupt officials or something.
Here ... uh. What are you trying to track down, exactly, Miz? That Makoto Priano has an ego? ... I think she admitted as much a page or two back.
That I have an ego? ... Sure. Probably. Yeah.
Both of us seem to kind of wrestle with our pride. A little bit of my pride, and I'd guess likely hers, comes from the fact that I do actually wrestle with it. Ego often seems to be nearly as standard equipment for a capsuleer as ships are. So is arguable hypocrisy-- mass killers expressing outrage over a few thousand dead crew, for example.
What do you think you'll find here at the source of all this smoke? Hurt feelings? Political tension? A personal grudge?
Does anybody doubt that any or all of those might be a little bit in play?
People are people. Motives are typically at least a little mixed. Ms. Priano's probably not sorry to have seen a clear shot at maybe wounding Soter in however small a way. Neither actually was I; in the minimal contact I've had with him, he's been pretty uniformly awful to me.
Your fire might basically boil down to a couple of apes taking an opportunity to try to douse a third they don't especially like with accelerant and set him alight, metaphorically speaking.
That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't deserve it. It doesn't mean that at all. |
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Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:41:04 -
[161] - Quote
Fascinating. Perhaps you should have started there instead of the overwrought and oh so noble concern trolling on behalf of koyonoke plague victims.
The misuse of "Overshadows" in headline was obviously an amateur mistake, and deserved to be criticized as such. Instead you let your now admitted personal animus run amok. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1700
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:45:12 -
[162] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:He's just a humble trader, though.... Well I am glad we can all agree on that at least.
As to Mr. Artos GÇÿloyaltiesGÇÖ, I cannot say. I wonGÇÖt deny any association with him as there is no profit in it and it would be wasted effort considering the obvious proclivities of your personality.
I am sure you believed with equal vigor he was someone else, before you categorically believed he was me.
No offence Mr. ArtosGǪ I can understand how being me would be appealing to most. I do like how you counter succinctly and with wit others wordy expositions on self-correctness.
Crotchety though he be, I like him better than most already.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9611
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:49:33 -
[163] - Quote
A simple media observer would know that context is key.
The context, in this case, is a new and strikingly partisan entrant into an existing fray with zero provable combat record, baseliner or capsuleer, and no history of involvement in political discussion, whose verbal ticks and other patterns correspond to a party who's known to use proxies heavily.
We use context and reputation to assess the validity of a person's claims, and the bias they take into a discussion.
The complete lack of context and reputation is actually highly unusual, especially among people so partisan, unless they are proxies or somehow otherwise involved with established parties.
Six years with no apparent reputation is, well, beyond merely unusual. It's frankly aberrant.
That said, admittedly, talk of sock puppets and proxies is distasteful in these forums, because it presumes a lack of independence or freedom of action that goes against the grain with most capsuleers. At the same time, it's an essential part of understanding the mess that is the Intergalactic Summit, and the cheap rhetorical ploys used by some to try to score points.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3524
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 18:51:04 -
[164] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Fascinating. Perhaps you should have started there instead of the overwrought and oh so noble concern trolling on behalf of koyonoke plague victims.
The misuse of "Overshadows" in headline was obviously an amateur mistake, and deserved to be criticized as such. Instead you let your now admitted personal animus run amok.
What I admitted is that it's quite possibly a factor. It doesn't mean there was anything disingenuous about the criticism.
I don't lie very much, Mr. Arto. I don't bother much with trickery. And, I also don't pretend to fully know my own mind. Sometimes there's a lot more going on than I will easily admit to myself.
I want to understand myself. I want to understand others as well. I want to see. Sometimes, that means testing someone else's fabric of illusions. Illusions they want to show me; illusions they want to show themselves.
Sometimes I might say more than I should. But what I say, I normally mean. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3271
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:35:49 -
[165] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's not just that a lot is being said, but the things being said and what/who it's being said to and about. Of course I could be wrong but there's just so much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere. Here ... uh. What are you trying to track down, exactly, Miz? That Makoto Priano has an ego? ... I think she admitted as much a page or two back. That I have an ego? ... Sure. Probably. Yeah.
Nah. Miz is just totally shocked to find out I'm arrogant. Totally. See? That's her shocked face. Or maybe it's her 'I'm gonna taser you' face. I mean, being tasered was pretty shocking.
Ohh! No, wait! That's her 'Red, get the hel off my galnet' face!
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Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:41:11 -
[166] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:A simple media observer would know that context is key.
Unfortunately, you've put your strong analysis skills in service of a presumed conclusion that is incorrect.
Must you continue belaboring the issue? Or have you made your point?
Aria Jenneth wrote: What I admitted is that it's quite possibly a factor. It doesn't mean there was anything disingenuous about the criticism.
I don't lie very much, Mr. Arto. I don't bother much with trickery. And, I also don't pretend to fully know my own mind. Sometimes there's a lot more going on than I will easily admit to myself.
I want to understand myself. I want to understand others as well. I want to see. Sometimes, that means testing someone else's fabric of illusions. Illusions they want to show me; illusions they want to show themselves.
Sometimes I might say more than I should. But what I say, I normally mean.
Well, then I hope this experience has been a useful side trip on your journey to self enlightenment. Perhaps your heathen insecurities would be further assuaged by a period of prayer and reflection? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1599
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 19:45:37 -
[167] - Quote
No tasers. You're getting plugged directly into the mains at this point.
... now get off my galnet. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3527
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:00:06 -
[168] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Well, then I hope this experience has been a useful side trip on your journey to self enlightenment. Perhaps your heathen insecurities would be further assuaged by a period of prayer and reflection?
Uh ... I think I'm good for now, Mr. Arto. Thanks, though.
By the way, it's hard to find a proxy who'll admit to being a proxy, or a sock-puppeteer who'll admit to being one, so ... you and Mr. Syagrius both denying it? Doesn't mean a lot. It's not really evidence either way.
Another impression might develop with time. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:03:39 -
[169] - Quote
Have you made your point yet? I think everyone who's reading this understood your accusation several pages ago. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3528
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:10:34 -
[170] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:Have you made your point yet? I think everyone who's reading this understood your accusation several pages ago.
I did mention that I'm maybe just a little like Arrendis this way, Mr. Arto? Besides, you're giving more clues off all the time! Mr. Syagrius seems to think I jump from conclusion to conclusion; really it's more like I lean a little this way, or a little that way. You're helping me find a way towards understanding who I'm talking to, whether you're really Mr. Syagrius or not.
Why would I stop sparring with you when I'm getting so many little glimpses into the person that is Nai Arto? It's fun! |
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Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
427
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:20:12 -
[171] - Quote
My favorite thing about this is just another breeding ground for the same handful of people to come in and spew huge pages and pages and pages of rhetoric between one another instead of anyone who actually enjoys the content to speak and comment on it, lest they be buried beneath ten hours of reading and high-chin sarcasm.
I don't see how this is surprising, or new, or very upsetting at all.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:22:24 -
[172] - Quote
By all means, let us debate on actual productive topics then. Whatever context of suspicion you felt was neccessary regarding my origin has been more than adequately established. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3529
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:25:59 -
[173] - Quote
Sure. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:33:55 -
[174] - Quote
One way or another, all will be reunified when the Reclaiming is accomplished. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1104
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:38:19 -
[175] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Careful, I suggested that and look what happened.
That suggests you know what happened. We all know that's impossible, though, because it would've required reading, which you don't do.
Can we end this obnoxious habit of assuming that someone who thinks very differently than us simply doesn't think? It's pretty obvious by the way one carries themselves if they're well-read or not. Let's not pretend that because we don't like someone, these indicators aren't there. It's childish.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9613
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 20:45:57 -
[176] - Quote
Mr. Galente, it's actually a jibe based on Syagrius calling Ms. Jenneth cynical, and then claiming he... didn't read what she had wrote? Or something to that effect?
And then he made a post about the usual suspects, and then made a post about how he was proven correct exactly 51 seconds after the first-- again, strongly suggesting he was either posturing for dramatic effect, or hadn't read the material he was commenting on.
Arrendis is, for better or worse, quite capable of raking someone over the coals for a rhetorical misstep.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3529
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 21:17:14 -
[177] - Quote
Nai Arto wrote:One way or another, all will be reunified when the Reclaiming is accomplished.
See, now you're talking more like I'd usually expect from the Amarr. Only, also, you're now likely trying to allay a suspicion.
In any case, respectfully, I'll pass on debating the Reclaiming, sir. That one really is kind of a thorny issue for me, and it's a bit removed from, well, this entire thread, really. |
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 21:43:55 -
[178] - Quote
Fair enough. It is the kind of topic that tends to be generally discomforting.
Perhaps our conversation should focus on the new article published today? I must say from a theological perspective this is the most interesting submission yet. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
440
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 22:33:23 -
[179] - Quote
New, from The Federal Frontier: The Soul and the Capsuleer, by Saint Michael's Soul. An essay on the Jovian Disease and how it relates to the Capsuleers.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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James Syagrius
Reclamation
1703
|
Posted - 2017.04.26 22:34:37 -
[180] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:wrote? Or something to that effect? Or I read the remainder of the thread prior to making either post as I sometimes do. I am shocked your vaunted research skills missed that.
Makoto Priano wrote:Arrendis is, for better or worse, quite capable of raking someone over the coals for a rhetorical misstep. Actually that isn't what she is doing. She is confirming your erroneous assumption. Which by current logic means you are actually one and the same person, and thus everything you or she says should be ignored as irrelevant. After all, you both tend to say in a paragraph what could be accomplished with a nod.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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