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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2017.04.29 09:06:29 -
[1] - Quote
Those of you FW folks are aware its becoming a problem, so i think its time to put some ideas on the table to counter it.
The simplest idea put forward yet was to reduce LP gain an alpha could get from plexes, to a bare minimal as so to make alpha farming unviable.
Another to add was to have plex sized ship as necessary to cap the said plex with, so for ep a frigate could still rum timer up to a certain point on a large plex, but a bc or up would be required to cap it. I think such a change would get people to organize better to capturing system, promote more group and pvp focused captures, as well as more targets to hunt.
So far thats all i have but feel free to add your grain of salt to fixing this.
Cheers |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
363
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Posted - 2017.04.29 09:45:44 -
[2] - Quote
Nerfing alpha plexing, as satisfying as it would be, is still missing the core of the problem: that the plexing mechanics treat it as zero-risk PvE farming where the incentive is to refuse combat if anything threatens to disrupt your farming. There needs to be more of an incentive to stand your ground and defend the plex you're in (which, coincidentally, alphas would be terrible at) instead of fitting as many WCS as possible and running away from every possible threat. For example, what if leaving a plex before the timer finishes resulted in a LP loss for all attacking players involved? Alpha farmers would quickly find themselves running a net loss in LP, and only players that are willing to engage in PvP would be able to profit from the system.
As for minimum ship sizes, it's a bad idea because it makes it a lot harder to get fights. Those big ships can't go into smaller sites, so you probably end up writing off the larger sites entirely due to the sheer inconvenience of having to swap ships every time you swap sites. |
Cade Windstalker
1483
|
Posted - 2017.04.29 14:17:06 -
[3] - Quote
I'd just like to point out the irony in most of Low Sec, for years, asking for more things to get people into their space.
When people, especially newbies, eventually find something that meets the risk/reward curve requirement that gets them into Low this happens...
Seriously, I get what the actual problem is, but that way of looking at it is just hilarious to me. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
288
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Posted - 2017.04.29 15:19:23 -
[4] - Quote
Lol nah and loyalty stores need to be overhauled anyway. Faction mods should be cheaper than deadspace stuff. Especially guns There's no faction guns in market because theyre so hard to get. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1233
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Posted - 2017.04.29 15:57:04 -
[5] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Those of you FW folks are aware its becoming a problem, so i think its time to put some ideas on the table to counter it. Let me paraphrase this for you. Those damnable alpha cone players running all the FW plexes are interfering with MY ability to make LP / ISK by running all the FW plexes and CCP needs to make them stop or nerf their income to the point where they stop doing it.
FW plexes are one of the biggest LP / ISK farming systems in the game at the moment and complaining about the alpha clones exploiting a system you exploit for LP / ISK is rather ...... well I will not say that here the ISD may take exception to it so I will simply leave it at you are being extremely selfish.
On the other hand if you are one of those that hates FW farmers because that is not in the spirit of what FW is supposed to be about (read war with other players) then you need to address the real issues with FW and stop picking on the alpha players. |
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
18
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Posted - 2017.04.30 01:59:47 -
[6] - Quote
maybe being in FW plex should trigger weapon timer so anyone who is farming there without intentions of fighting cant immediately hide in station/citadel which would allow a chance to deal with them
i know they can run into safespot but safespots can be probed... it will definitely not fix anything but it might be interesting to make this happen |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6439
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Posted - 2017.04.30 05:07:09 -
[7] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Nerfing alpha plexing, as satisfying as it would be, is still missing the core of the problem: that the plexing mechanics treat it as zero-risk PvE farming where the incentive is to refuse combat if anything threatens to disrupt your farming. There needs to be more of an incentive to stand your ground and defend the plex you're in (which, coincidentally, alphas would be terrible at) instead of fitting as many WCS as possible and running away from every possible threat. For example, what if leaving a plex before the timer finishes resulted in a LP loss for all attacking players involved? Alpha farmers would quickly find themselves running a net loss in LP, and only players that are willing to engage in PvP would be able to profit from the system.
As for minimum ship sizes, it's a bad idea because it makes it a lot harder to get fights. Those big ships can't go into smaller sites, so you probably end up writing off the larger sites entirely due to the sheer inconvenience of having to swap ships every time you swap sites.
Maybe there needs to be some skin in the game, so to speak. That to farm you need more than a stabbed ship. You can still fit a stabbed ship, but you'll lose your "skin", so to speak.
IDK, I don't do FW nor do I interact with them much, but it sounds like that the issue lack of skin in the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1234
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Posted - 2017.04.30 13:46:08 -
[8] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:IDK, I don't do FW nor do I interact with them much, but it sounds like that the issue lack of skin in the game. Here is an overly simplistic version of FW so you have an idea of how and where the problems arise. FW is points, vulnerability and ultimately "capturing" a sytem For each plex the attacking faction captures they get points, when they have enough points (relative to defenders) the system becomes "vulnerable" and the attackers can go after the hub directly, if they capture the hub they capture the system. Defenders prevent this by holding plexes they already control, or by re-taking plexes that were captured by the attackers. In theory the system is set up rather well and could be the source of some serious fights, however CCP screwed it all up with how and when you get paid for your involvement. Both attackers and defenders are paid LP / ISK for capturing a plex, they receive virtually nothing for defending a plex they already control so immediately the pay out process discourages fighting because it is more profitable to go capture a plex somewhere else than it is to try and defend one. Make it equally or perhaps even more profitable (LP / ISK) to defend a plex than it is to capture one and you may see a change in this FW farming.
What I find interesting is that many of the complaints here on these forums seem to come from neutrals not involved in the FW portion of the game and that seems simply crazy to me. The FW players are there to make LP / ISK or they are there because the actually want to try and capture or to defend a system. Either way they gain nothing by fighting with neutral characters so why is it a surprise to anyone that they will run away if possible? |
Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
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Posted - 2017.04.30 21:01:27 -
[9] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Verlyn wrote:Those of you FW folks are aware its becoming a problem, so i think its time to put some ideas on the table to counter it. Let me paraphrase this for you. Those damnable alpha cone players running all the FW plexes are interfering with MY ability to make LP / ISK by running all the FW plexes and CCP needs to make them stop or nerf their income to the point where they stop doing it. FW plexes are one of the biggest LP / ISK farming systems in the game at the moment and complaining about the alpha clones exploiting a system you exploit for LP / ISK is rather ...... well I will not say that here the ISD may take exception to it so I will simply leave it at you are being extremely selfish. On the other hand if you are one of those that hates FW farmers because that is not in the spirit of what FW is supposed to be about (read war with other players) then you need to address the real issues with FW and stop picking on the alpha players.
Ok, so first, lets get your straighout prententious and inflammatory assumptions out of the way.
I dont make my isk through FW (or maybe a negligible fraction of, by way of time spent capping systems through pvp with alliance).
Second, FW powertides are all about following the inflating LP + tags prices, by moving farmer alts back and forth with each tide, and not through actual real pvp empire vs empire content. The main issue seen with alphas is precisely this, that it is a non-pvp focused activity driving a supposedly pvp-focused system.
Also, it's become almost an every-time recurrence that FW farming gets mainly done by alt bots, and in direct EULA violation, but still very hard to drop the hammer on obviously, nor to find the main associated account...
So it can be safely concluded that alpha FW farming should receive the appropriate changes, even if that may be as displeasing to hear for some ...
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3907
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Posted - 2017.04.30 22:25:38 -
[10] - Quote
That reinforces the notion that fw is the problem. Not alphas.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
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Posted - 2017.04.30 22:26:14 -
[11] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:IDK, I don't do FW nor do I interact with them much, but it sounds like that the issue lack of skin in the game. Here is an overly simplistic version of FW so you have an idea of how and where the problems arise. FW is points, vulnerability and ultimately "capturing" a sytem For each plex the attacking faction captures they get points, when they have enough points (relative to defenders) the system becomes "vulnerable" and the attackers can go after the hub directly, if they capture the hub they capture the system. Defenders prevent this by holding plexes they already control, or by re-taking plexes that were captured by the attackers. In theory the system is set up rather well and could be the source of some serious fights, however CCP screwed it all up with how and when you get paid for your involvement. Both attackers and defenders are paid LP / ISK for capturing a plex, they receive virtually nothing for defending a plex they already control so immediately the pay out process discourages fighting because it is more profitable to go capture a plex somewhere else than it is to try and defend one. Make it equally or perhaps even more profitable (LP / ISK) to defend a plex than it is to capture one and you may see a change in this FW farming. What I find interesting is that many of the complaints here on these forums seem to come from neutrals not involved in the FW portion of the game and that seems simply crazy to me. The FW players are there to make LP / ISK or they are there because the actually want to try and capture or to defend a system. Either way they gain nothing by fighting with neutral characters so why is it a surprise to anyone that they will run away if possible?
Welll that explains it.
Obvious lp bot farmer detected.
And trying so hard to get his defensive plex LP the same as offensive for no pvp effort or investment...
Thats one lame P.O.S right there trying hard to push his little free lp farming shithouse if I ever saw one. |
Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 22:27:11 -
[12] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:That reinforces the notion that fw is the problem. Not alphas.
Alpha use of FW is a problem, as it's mainly free bot farmers.
Here, have some free isk !! |
Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 22:31:13 -
[13] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Nerfing alpha plexing, as satisfying as it would be, is still missing the core of the problem: that the plexing mechanics treat it as zero-risk PvE farming where the incentive is to refuse combat if anything threatens to disrupt your farming. There needs to be more of an incentive to stand your ground and defend the plex you're in (which, coincidentally, alphas would be terrible at) instead of fitting as many WCS as possible and running away from every possible threat. For example, what if leaving a plex before the timer finishes resulted in a LP loss for all attacking players involved? Alpha farmers would quickly find themselves running a net loss in LP, and only players that are willing to engage in PvP would be able to profit from the system.
As for minimum ship sizes, it's a bad idea because it makes it a lot harder to get fights. Those big ships can't go into smaller sites, so you probably end up writing off the larger sites entirely due to the sheer inconvenience of having to swap ships every time you swap sites.
An agreeable solution, the only problem with is that you often have to choose not to fight because outnumbered, or the fight simply wouldn't be in your favour and risk losing a ship fitted for pvp, but just not the pvp thats coming to you.
Would you run an LP loss still then? |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3907
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Posted - 2017.04.30 22:32:16 -
[14] - Quote
You're way off.
An alpha puts all the effort into farming that an omega does. The difference is an omega has a better skill set. That's all. It's no more free isk for the alpha as it is omega.
Nice knee jerk though
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 22:35:47 -
[15] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You're way off.
An alpha puts all the effort into farming that an omega does. The difference is an omega has a better skill set. That's all. It's no more free isk for the alpha as it is omega.
Nice knee jerk though
On paper yes.
The reality of Alpha use for FW is very different though, and my guess is either you're one of them, or you havent been in or looked at FW long enough. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3907
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Posted - 2017.04.30 22:39:03 -
[16] - Quote
If it was a million omegas or a million alphas it makes no difference. You'd still have the same problem.
The issue is clearly with fw mechanics themselves.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 22:59:19 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:If it was a million omegas or a million alphas it makes no difference. You'd still have the same problem.
The issue is clearly with fw mechanics themselves.
Again FW mechanics would be fine, if you have alternative ideas, please do share. The whole point of the thread btw...
However the way they're currently being exploited for easy isk by free accounts, still is not. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3907
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 23:47:14 -
[18] - Quote
You could just as easily say alphas are exploiting missions for 'free' isk, mining, explorations, even pvp for 'free' loot. You completely misunderstand what the difference between an alpha and omega is.
You're like the vendetta mercs complaining that alphas are ruining their wars because they can blob in shitfit cruisers.
You're problem is not alphas, its that the games population has gone up. It's how fw works.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Verlyn
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
94
|
Posted - 2017.05.01 07:57:10 -
[19] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You could just as easily say alphas are exploiting missions for 'free' isk, mining, explorations, even pvp for 'free' loot. You completely misunderstand what the difference between an alpha and omega is.
You're like the vendetta mercs complaining that alphas are ruining their wars because they can blob in shitfit cruisers.
You're problem is not alphas, its that the games population has gone up. It's how fw works.
When someone can find a way to multi alpha farm, using bot software, the problem lies with the nature of alpha and their role in fw mechanics.
Feel free to share an idea on improving said mechanics, to limit alpha use, or else maybe just stay quiet ? |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
371
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Posted - 2017.05.01 08:20:27 -
[20] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You could just as easily say alphas are exploiting missions for 'free' isk, mining, explorations, even pvp for 'free' loot. You completely misunderstand what the difference between an alpha and omega is.
The difference is that, in all other situations, there's a strict upper limit on how much alphas can do to exploit those PvE opportunities. An alpha will not be doing level 4 missions without a battleship or T2/T3 cruiser, won't be doing nullsec exploration effectively without a cloak or T2 analyzers, won't be mining effectively without a T2 barge, etc. But suddenly in FW the alpha is just as effective as the omega at farming, because there's no incentive to ever fly anything but a stabbed T1 frigate and run away to the next plex as soon as any enemy ship appears. |
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1237
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Posted - 2017.05.01 12:37:36 -
[21] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:I dont make my isk through FW (or maybe a negligible fraction of, by way of time spent capping systems through pvp with alliance). If your LP / ISK income streams are not affected by alpha clone FW plexing then why do you even care how much they make? And why should they be nerfed into the ground simply because you do not like them?
Verlyn wrote:Second, FW powertides are all about following the inflating LP + tags prices, by moving farmer alts back and forth with each tide, and not through actual real pvp empire vs empire content. The main issue seen with alphas is precisely this, that it is a non-pvp focused activity driving a supposedly pvp-focused system. As Daichi says, then the problem is the FW system not the alpha clones that participate in it. I did my time in FW years ago because everyone told me it was "the" place to find PvP, left that useless crap behind because even way back then stabbed to hell farmers were common and it was nearly impossible to find fights. On top of that the way the payouts are handled the system does not work well for what it is supposed to be, a war about defending your faction, or attacking another.
Verlyn wrote:Also, it's become almost an every-time recurrence that FW farming gets mainly done by alt bots, and in direct EULA violation, but still very hard to drop the hammer on obviously, nor to find the main associated account... If they are bots then report them and let CCP sort it all out, that is the proper thing to do.
Setting that aspect of it aside nerfing the income of players that are following the rules is a terrible idea because it punishes those who are actually playing the game according to the rules. Yet those who are willing to risk the ban hammer will always find a way to run more bots or move on to something else where there botting ways will make them more ISK.
Verlyn wrote:So it can be safely concluded that alpha FW farming should receive the appropriate changes, even if that may be as displeasing to hear for some ... There is no doubt that FW farming and in fact the entire FW system needs a major overhaul but nerfing the ability of the alpha state clones to make LP / ISK is not the proper way to do it if for no other reason than it does nothing to address the farming nature and culture that is FW at this point in the games history.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
1237
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Posted - 2017.05.01 13:14:29 -
[22] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:[Welll that explains it.
Obvious lp bot farmer detected.
And trying so hard to get his defensive plex LP the same as offensive for no pvp effort or investment...
Thats one lame P.O.S right there trying hard to push his little free lp farming shithouse if I ever saw one. You have the nerve to post this after jumping on me for assuming that I know what you do in this game, and then you call me a lame P.O.S., So typical.
Not that you care but I have not had a character actually in FW for several years, I saw the farming ways and the fact that damn few players are in FW for what it is supposed to be about so I left. On the other hand my low sec character is in a corp group that loves to hunt in FW space. The stabbed to hell farmers are good practice for the group and the flood of tears we can create by messing with the more serious FW players is priceless.
Verlyn wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:That reinforces the notion that fw is the problem. Not alphas. Alpha use of FW is a problem, as it's mainly free bot farmers. Here, have some free isk !! You are stuck in a rut with this bot thing why? Again as in my other post if you and your income is not affected by the alpha clones or the bots why is this such a problem for you?
In the end we get down to these. Nerfing the play style or the ability to make ISK of those who actually follow the rules because there are those who break the rules is an idiotic thing to even consider.
Bots, scripts and the list goes on it is a never ending battle between the online game companies (it is not restricted to EvE) and those who want / need to cheat or simply enjoy the technical challenge of beating the game companies in the battle of the bots if you will so best you get used to having them in the game and learn how to deal with it. |
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2017.05.01 16:05:12 -
[23] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Those of you FW folks are aware its becoming a problem, so i think its time to put some ideas on the table to counter it.
The simplest idea put forward yet was to reduce LP gain an alpha could get from plexes, to a bare minimal as so to make alpha farming unviable.
Another to add was to have plex sized ship as necessary to cap the said plex with, so for ep a frigate could still rum timer up to a certain point on a large plex, but a bc or up would be required to cap it. I think such a change would get people to organize better to capturing system, promote more group and pvp focused captures, as well as more targets to hunt.
So far thats all i have but feel free to add your grain of salt to fixing this.
Cheers
You state that Alpha clones farming is a problem. Actually that should be a question, not a statement of fact. not everyone feels it is, let alone It means we should support anything that removes the opportunity for new players to try what for them is a very high risk activity.
Now it is arguable that Plex farming is not exactly a balanced feature, should not the attention be on that rather than Kill the new players fun?
Isn't it funny that all the changes that have taken place to encourage PVP, by nerfing farmers never actually seem to achieve that goal? And yet players demand more?
Maybe it is easier to nail all the farmers to the floor, to enable a nice bit of killboard padding, that help? Oh and remove the standings hit, and a free Pony, don't forget the free pony. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3909
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Posted - 2017.05.01 16:16:05 -
[24] - Quote
@ verlyn, So you're problem is bots and getting around the multi box restriction. Just because your idea is awful doesn't mean i need to come up with a better one. I am yet to decide there is even a problem. Like i said, if it was thousands of omegas doing it you'd still be whining. Do you even realise that you are doing nothing to stop omega bots? 'Alpha bots bad. Omega bots ok'...
@ merin, And you too are saying the problem is that fw can be done in a half hearted frigate. This is not the fault of alphas, its the fault of fw. Or stabs in your case, cause i know you don't like them.
Changing payment structure because of someones clone status is a **** move. They are putting in all the effort and risk as omegas. Screwing their payment over is bull. You wanna make fw more difficult for ALL shitfit frigates, go ahead, that's loads better. But the whole point was that noobs, in their frigates, are always relevant in fw. Imagine all the tedious ship switching when only frigs cap novices, only dessies cap smalls, only cruisers cap mediums and only bc's or larger cap larges.
No.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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