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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
dorannl
Gallente Mystery Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.11 17:20:00 -
[211]
Just one question skryp if its possible why bob didnt succed in killing a single titan which was not logged of.
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.05.11 17:32:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Skrypt Edited by: Skrypt on 11/05/2007 17:14:29 All that I see here is weakness and whining.
It is entirely possible to one volley any super capitals capacitor beyond its required level of capacitor to jump out. Nos & Neutralizing BSs would do quiet nicely and wouldn't take too many, tbh. Do the math on it. As for stopping it from warping away... Well... It's easy enough. Figure it out.
Considering the intense amount of resources that must be expended to create a titan, they are as they should be. It should not be possible for a hodpodge gang of newbies to gank a supercapital. That's just nonsense. You're going to have to put in the effort to kill the ship that the ships owners put into creating the ship.
It is very possible. You just haven't the drive.
Oh, and I'm in favor of boosting Titans. :) They're essentially superfreighters that can DD every hour.
You have to get it out in the open. If u always remote cyno, it will effectively never be in a vulnerable position.
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Conner D'el
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Posted - 2007.05.11 17:40:00 -
[213]
I'm new to the whole titan idea, but here's a quick proposition to make the titan pilots use a DD hesitantly...
Have the DD essentially "break" the warp/jump drive of the Titan. Want to use your DD? Fine. You're stuck there until a BS comes outfitted to repair you. In the meantime, that BS is vulnerable to attack since the actual repair mod invalidates all other mod activites while in use AND the BS cannot move. The Titan and the BS are stuck in the same place (the BS completely vunerable) for an indeterminite (I'll throw out 20 minutes) amount of time until the Titan's warp drive is repaired.
This to me would seem to that a carefully thought out counter attack /trap would allow the defenders to at least have their shot at the Titan.
I do agree that the DD should use up all the cap of the ship, and that remote firing should not be allowed, just my two cents.
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Kyodai Koga
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:21:00 -
[214]
Props to the OP, it's a great job you did there and I agree 100% with you.
This deserves a sticky !
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XeroII
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:28:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Bein Glorious Background The only time a Doomsday will have no effect is when one is still cloaked from jumping through a gate, and this may be getting fixed soon.
Titans using gates... |
Ilor Prophet
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:28:00 -
[216]
I think that the math shown by the OP is compelling. I think that the arguments by BoB corpers who say, "you're just not trying hard enough" is not.
I keep coming back to the idea that not a single Titan has been killed when the pilot was logged on, and at least one through the arguable use of an exploit. If BoB, the single largest, best-funded, and best-equipped alliance in the game can't kill them in a straight-up fight (and it's certainly not for lack of trying), then it's a clear indicator that something is broken.
For what it's worth, I'm a big believer that NO ship should have ANY kind of immunity from ANY type of module. The effects may be greatly reduced by some innate resistance, but giving a ship a complete immunity to something is like giving a ship a 100% EM resist to their shields, or something similar.
Note that I think this also applies to dreadnoughts in Siege Mode. Yes, your sensor strength and locking distance should go through the roof in Siege mode, but if enough guys can throw enough ECM or dampening on you to break your lock, they should be able to. But here's the catch - it should also kick you out of Siege Mode prematurely, such that you can move, jump out, or fight them off.
Similarly, Titans and Motherships should not be immune from the effects of EWAR modules, and I include warp disruptors in this as well. I think that the inherent warp core stability rating is a good one, and should probably be applied to all capital ships to varying degrees. A massive carrier or dreadnought being tackled by a single interceptor is just silly.
A reasonable level might be Transport Ships getting 2, Dreads and Carriers getting 4, Motherships getting 8, and Titans getting the aforementioned 12. Or something that scales similarly whichever numbers are finally picked. The beauty of the inherent warp core stability is that thanks to the Transport Ships and skiffs, the code is already implemented. Giving this same capability to capital ships is a database change.
That said, I do think that the Titan should have some kind of powerful weapon to distiguish it from a mothership. Ideally, this weapon would require targeting, or at the very least be vastly more effective with targeting. Something like a ranged smartbomb that you could detonate in the middle of your enemy's fleet. Keep the targeting range at 250km such that you can target nearly anyone on-grid with you, but make the weapon's radius of effect center on the target. A remote smartbomb, if you will. If you can target a particular vessel, it has a radius of 50km around the target and 100% damage. If not, it has a radius of 30km around the target and 50% damage.
Further, I'd reduce both the damage and the "cool down" time. Make it less in the way of a completely destructive weapon that annihilates everything on-grid and more of an extremely potent fleet weapon. Imagine a 50km radius blast of 30,000 points of damage every few minutes. This keeps the Doomsday as an offensive weapon, which in my mind is the intent behind it.
In this way, I can envision a situation in which the Titan is the centerpiece of a fleet. With the aid of target painting support vessels, it can achieve decent lock times, allowing it to target enemy vessels with its Doomsday device. To combat this, enemy fleets are forced to disperse so as to minimize the damage that any one DDD burst can inflict - but this dispersal exposes them to defeat in detail.
With its innate resistance to ewar, it is very difficult to keep it from getting a lock, but not impossible. And keeping it from getting a lock doesn't render it useless, just less effective. And finally, since it can be tackled (although with great effort), it is less "invulnerable" once committed to a fight.
In my mind, this makes Titans useful but not overpowering as well as vulnerable but not crippled.
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Kyodai Koga
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:30:00 -
[217]
Originally by: XeroII
Originally by: Bein Glorious Background The only time a Doomsday will have no effect is when one is still cloaked from jumping through a gate, and this may be getting fixed soon.
Titans using gates...
He's talking about the targets of the DDD, not the Titan firing it.
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XeroII
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:31:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Kyodai Koga
Originally by: XeroII
Originally by: Bein Glorious Background The only time a Doomsday will have no effect is when one is still cloaked from jumping through a gate, and this may be getting fixed soon.
Titans using gates...
He's talking about the targets of the DDD, not the Titan firing it.
Ahh, my bad. |
Conmen
CRICE Corporation Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:59:00 -
[219]
I like how some random goon noob right the worlds longest post whining about valid tactics that take time enery and a huge amount of isk to setup. Then on top of it everyone gives him a round of apllause ohh please give me a break. Fact of the matter is the titan was desighned to for taking over system no just being a thorn in the side but being a real problem threat that alliances and corpration have to fear and counter by being vigilante 24-7 with capital shiop fleets scouts and hmm here is an idea OTHER TITANS. WOW what an idea counter a ship with the same damn ship. Why the hell does there need to be an i win buttton against the massive ships it is ********. If i have a rowboat and a massive battleship comes in there is no way in hell that thing wont dominate me i don care how many rowboats you throw at it. Jesus just stop your whining and let the devs deal with their crap. |
Mendeia
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:01:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Mendeia on 11/05/2007 18:59:19
Originally by: Skrypt It is entirely possible to one volley any super capitals capacitor beyond its required level of capacitor to jump out. Nos & Neutralizing BSs would do quiet nicely and wouldn't take too many, tbh. Do the math on it. As for stopping it from warping away... Well... It's easy enough. Figure it out.
Methinks you didn't bother to read the OP. Particularly the part where he noted that, sure, you can insta-neut a titan to 0% with 50+ tricked out BS's, but the titan will regen enough energy to jump out in LESS THAN HALF THE CYCLE TIME OF THE NOS. So the titan gets hit by 50+ BS's and just thinks "Oh, well I guess I have to wait 10 seconds before clicking jump now. Darn." The math is easy enough. Figure it out. |
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Callistra Raines
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:04:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Conmen hmm here is an idea OTHER TITANS. WOW what an idea counter a ship with the same damn ship.
Read the OP. All of it. Like the part where he notes that having more titans only makes the problem WORSE. A titan can't kill another titan. It can, however, kill the entire support fleet. Getting your OTHER TITANS ends with a half dozen titans on each side sitting there looking at eachother until they get bored and go home because everyone else is either dead or smart enough to stay out of the system. Sounds like fun to me!
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Smelt Down
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:15:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Conmen I like how some random goon noob right the worlds longest post whining about valid tactics that take time enery and a huge amount of isk to setup. Then on top of it everyone gives him a round of apllause ohh please give me a break. Fact of the matter is the titan was desighned to for taking over system no just being a thorn in the side but being a real problem threat that alliances and corpration have to fear and counter by being vigilante 24-7 with capital shiop fleets scouts and hmm here is an idea OTHER TITANS. WOW what an idea counter a ship with the same damn ship. Why the hell does there need to be an i win buttton against the massive ships it is ********. If i have a rowboat and a massive battleship comes in there is no way in hell that thing wont dominate me i don care how many rowboats you throw at it. Jesus just stop your whining and let the devs deal with their crap.
If you were not in a corp hostile to goons I would guess you were a goon alt posting this to make titans look even worse. You are basically admitting titans are completely broken by stating the only solution is to just build more titans.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:20:00 -
[223]
If you simplify the problem, as a a Titan pilot you are a - invulnerable, b - a ganking maching. Everybody understood the ganking machine part so, for a : - if you are warping to an unlaigned point, you can't be stoped by bubles since they can't stop you when aligning. At 95% of alignement, cancel the warp and warp to another point. With cap recharging possiblty this ship has, nobody can stop you. -----
History is made by whinners
Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:23:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Smelt Down If you were not in a corp hostile to goons I would guess you were a goon alt posting this to make titans look even worse. (...)
Well... Okay... Do you know any goons to have ideas like this or people told you they ate children ? -----
History is made by whinners
Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
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Smelt Down
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:33:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Smelt Down If you were not in a corp hostile to goons I would guess you were a goon alt posting this to make titans look even worse. (...)
Well... Okay... Do you know any goons to have ideas like this or people told you they ate children ?
What? I was posting that saying the post makes titans look incredibly unbalanced, and that we know it is not a goon alt because it is from an ex LV corp. I am not really sure I follow what you are asking. Do I know any goons to have ideas like this? I guess not?
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:53:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 11/05/2007 19:52:17 What I was underlining (and to be honnest, I was trying to avoid this kind of conversation on this thread but was a little choked) is how it's funny you just told "okay, at first I would have think you were a Goon because they are known to use alts to make dirty threads". To use a really really really bad analogy, I classify the method of thinking under the same logic as all the "I'm not racist but..." from most irl political sides that I saw in France's elections (please accept my apologies for this analogy). -----
History is made by whinners
Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
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Bein Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.11 19:59:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Skrypt http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=518418&page=6#178
Allow me to explain further how utterly impractical and unrealistic it would be to neut a max-recharge TitanÆs capacitor to prevent it from warping out.
An Avatar with Energy Management V will have a capacitor capacity of 140,625. With Jump Drive Operation V, it would need 71% of its capacitor or 99,843 cap to jump out. If it had a recharge rate of 14 seconds - which is entirely reasonable as has been shown, especially since the AvatarÆs cap recharge bonus does apply to itself û it would have an average cap/s of 10,044.5, and a peak cap/s ( average x 2.31) of 23,203.1.
Assuming that this Titan was, for whatever reason, and you were to use specifically carriers with five Heavy Energy Neutralizer IIs each - which take 600 cap every 24 seconds or 25 cap/s each û it would take at least 14 carriers to drop it down to the 71% threshold for an instant. It would take 46 carriers to drop it down to zero.
However, 14 carriers with 5 Heavy Neut IIs will only drain 350 cap/s. The Titan will recharge the 40,782 cap in 4.06 seconds, and if 46 carriers dropping it down to zero it will recharge to 99,843 cap in 9.94 seconds and jump out.
Do you intend to suggest that itÆs possible to realistically kill one Titan, even all by itself, in just ten seconds? Do you suggest that 46 carriers is a logical, realistic measure to kill a titan, just one single Titan? Do you think its at all logical that the difference between the Titan being into even a minor chance of danger and having virtually nothing to fear at all could be whether or not you have 46 carriers or more?
Do you even think that itÆs likely that a titan would let itself get into the range of all forty six of these carriers so that it could have a mere chance at being put into danger? Is it more work to make a Titan or to have almost fifty capital ships ready to go at one time and set up for one specific scenario just because one person, one single person is around putting everyone at risk? Is that at all realistic to you?
Is it not unreasonable to assume that this single person has a friend in another capital ship, such as a carrier or a mothership, ready to jump or warp to the Titan in case of emergency and use Capital Energy Transfer arrays (capable of being used beyond the range of Heavy Energy Neutralizers) on the Titan so that it can jump out safe and sound, and it was never at risk after all?
Even if a piloted Titan was killed now, somehow, do you honestly think that this would be the burden or proof that shows that Titans arenÆt overpowered? Does whether or not Titans are overpowered and indisputably broken depend on whether or not they can be killed and that alone?
If you can say after all this that Titans are just fine, then youÆre playing the wrong game. If a developer can tell me after all this that Titans are just fine, then I guess IÆm the one playing the wrong game.
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.11 20:08:00 -
[228]
awesome work, congratulation
2 side here , the titans owner and the non titans owner, i know who will loose, and the loosing side have a very strict and absolute way to be mesured, it's here
http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility and if ccp dont react to the problem of titans (mainly.....) it will turn like that.... http://eve.coldfront.net/status/serenity
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Gort
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.05.11 21:00:00 -
[229]
To the OP: I salute you, sir. I read every word of your post and it was well worth the time spent. It is a reasoned presentation of a compelling issue.
To those replying on political (or other troll-ish) grounds, for shame. Address the issues. Eschew the usual fanboi propaganda. You can do it if you try.
Regards,
Gorty
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Damares
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Posted - 2007.05.11 21:45:00 -
[230]
the neuting plan isnt that bad, because are all your ships going to cycle their neuts at exactly the same time? so he can regen between cycles....
if everyone neuts at different times you could keep him down, it would require more people but if you want to keep him pinned, thats what you gotta do
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Life reaper
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.11 23:36:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Damares the neuting plan isnt that bad, because are all your ships going to cycle their neuts at exactly the same time? so he can regen between cycles....
if everyone neuts at different times you could keep him down, it would require more people but if you want to keep him pinned, thats what you gotta do
Yeah but that means the titan pilot isn't paying attention or is a ******. How are 80+ (4 groups of 20, staggering) carriers going to get in range, lock and neut the titan before it cynos out? Hell, if you tried to cyno in that many carriers into the titan they'd probably get popped one by one because of traffic control.
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Tarsyris
Gallente The OSS
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Posted - 2007.05.12 00:50:00 -
[232]
The solution to killing a titan is getting it alone, having 50+++ capital ships with Neuts on it and praying that for the 10 minutes it takes you to pop it he doesn't get any friendly cap ships with energy transfers to help him?
How is this anything but disproportional effort? A carrier can be popped by a few dozen subcapitals. A dread by a bit more. An MS or a Titan cannot be reasonably killed, and hence it does not matter if you spend 50 bil for the BPO, 50 bil for the mats, 3 months in a PoS and 40 bil in Mods SHOULD NOT buy invulnerability.
NOTHING should buy invulnerability.
Then you add all the other lame crap that titans can do and it just gets stupid. Why certain aspects aren't just changed on the spot with a hotfix boggles the mind. There is no sane player that thinks remote DD is ok and there hasn't been in weeks, yet the feature is still there.
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Fetzla
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Posted - 2007.05.12 01:49:00 -
[233]
So what the "Titans are fine" crowd are actually saying is that the bit at the top of the pages should say "Eve Online: Don't bother unless you've been playing since release since your character will have no role in PvP until you can pilot one of 4 ship classes".
I'm sure THAT'S great for the long term success of the game. |
Dracolich
North Star Networks Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.05.12 02:32:00 -
[234]
A very good read indeed. I haven't examined the scope of all your suggestions, but some nerf should happen. The one I favor most, is something in the lines of limited amount of Titans present in a system. In reality the most overpowering thing I personally thing is the bonii, that is just too nber. Especially in conjunction with other bonii from commandships, and implants.
For the most part I think, that Eve has turned into a rich man's game. And while CCP wanted more people into 0.0, it has become less attractive than ever.
bit off-topic: Personally, I would favor other servers for each eras in EVE, ie Exodus. I would be playing there...
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FoeHammur
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.05.12 03:02:00 -
[235]
Dominix
Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \
5742 shield, 6.76/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/19/39/59 7763 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/35/35/10 6250.0 cap, +8054.72/s, -0.0/s 150.0 m/s 0.0 DPS
OMG OVERPOWERED!
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Stevobob
Freedom Guard
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Posted - 2007.05.12 05:35:00 -
[236]
Originally by: FoeHammur Dominix
Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \
5742 shield, 6.76/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/19/39/59 7763 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/35/35/10 6250.0 cap, +8054.72/s, -0.0/s 150.0 m/s 0.0 DPS
OMG OVERPOWERED!
You fail to point out that a Domi in that setup is completely and utterly bloody useless.
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Stevobob
Freedom Guard
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Posted - 2007.05.12 05:36:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Stevobob on 12/05/2007 05:34:10 I applaud the effort put into the OP, it looks like a huge ass load of work. I agree with pretty much every point brought forward by the OP, as well.
edit - spelling
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Graegar
Triton Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.12 07:40:00 -
[238]
Titans are currently overpowered, there's no debating this. Having an i-win button pretty much defeats the purpose of a MMORPG. Hope CCP wakes up or the game will be a horrible place a year from now.
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Graegar
Triton Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.12 07:41:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Graegar on 12/05/2007 07:41:47
Originally by: FoeHammur Dominix
Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot Turret Slot
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay Draclira's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit II \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \
5742 shield, 6.76/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/19/39/59 7763 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/35/35/10 6250.0 cap, +8054.72/s, -0.0/s 150.0 m/s 0.0 DPS
OMG OVERPOWERED!
lol, you are comparing a Dominix that uses guns/drones.... to a Titan that is IMMUNE to EWAR and has a DOOMSDAY? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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Ametyst
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Posted - 2007.05.12 08:11:00 -
[240]
So you really think Bob Titans have the supercaprecharge setup? Scan a few ships from the very skilled players of MC, Bob, RA, MM, etc. They don't fit insane cap recharge, they fit insane resistance mods. (point & case, check the last Vindication 3 thread on the videos forums).
Cap recharge is worth **** if you are one-shotted. The RA mothership Lukec pointed us to, got one-shot killed in less than a minute because he had ****ty resists. I've seen some carrier movies that last for half an hour trying to shoot the damn thing down.
Your cap recharge argument is null from my point of view, I'm not even in Bob and I'm sure they don't have that stupid setup. You guys keep arguing the EWAR invincibility makes the titans unkillable, but I keep refering you guys to the 3 mothership kills: legit, not logoffski, fully aware. Bumpage ftw, but I guess you guys don't know how to kill a carrier in dock range of a station?
Oh an by the way, the reason the other titans (not bob's) haven't been destroyed yet, is because they are rarely on the front line, and when they are ... they sit inside a POS shield. Bob's aren't.
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