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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3367
|
Posted - 2017.05.03 21:48:56 -
[1] - Quote
I'd just like to heartily encourage everyone to use this thread for all future responses to anything that derails things.
I expect we'll see a lot of 'somethingsoemthing must be destroyed' in here if we do. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3370
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 00:54:50 -
[2] - Quote
Napkins, haven't you been permanently prohibited from talking to all women on the basis of being terminally creepy? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 19:11:28 -
[3] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Or that you're simply so repressed that you must urgently seek privacy without delay at even the hint of something that might tantalise you.
Or that he chickens out easily. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 19:45:37 -
[4] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Arrendis wrote:There's no difference, Aria. Sucking the life out of people is sucking the life out of people, whether you're literally bathing in their blood or building your family fortune off of generations of their toil. That's from one very particular point of view, Arrendis. I'm pretty sure you know better than to think it's the only one that's meaningful. I'd be really disappointed to be mistaken about that. Either way, I know you too well to argue you should change your position on this. For one thing, you're clever enough to be able to see perspectives you're not speaking from, and I don't really have the energy for a battle you could probably fight with yourself. For another, you'd fight me on every point whether you really believed it or not. You already understand the difference. Or, if, strangely, you don't, Ali can probably explain it in ways you'd be reluctant to fight her over. She had me attend her meeting with Ms. Leshrac, with a sidearm. It wasn't to protect either of them, except in the most metaphorical or spiritual sense.
I understand the difference others see in it. Just as I completely understand that there are other viewpoints and opinions on the matter.
They're wrong. They are as wrong as the people who like to claim that we're not responsible for bringing the Draifters down on our own heads. I still fully support blowing them all to hel because it's us or them, but make no mistake: we did that to ourselves, now we've got to wipe out the nornets' nest we kicked over.
So yes, there's plenty of different viewpoints about this. Mine is: a group of maniacs from one island wrote a book to justify wanton slavery and bloodshed in order to advance and expand their own power. Their descendents continued to use that book that conveniently said they were uniquely authorized to murder and enslave people... to murder and enslave people until they controlled their entire planet. They obliterated by force and cultural 'violation' every other nation and way of life on that world.
Then they spread their cancer to the stars. And they continued to tell everyone else they had two choices: either be killed or enslaved by force, and have their own unique cultures brutally sodomized into extinction, or agree in the total and perfect divine rightness of a book that says the Amarr get to kill and enslave anyone in the name of culturally sodomizing them until they give in and agree with the book.
Do it at gunpoint, or we'll shoot you and torture your kids until they do it.
And none of the other opinions, none of the other viewpoints, can alter those simple truths. That's what happened. That's what's continuing to be done to every still-enslaved lineage in the Empire. Anyone who says otherwise is either wrong... or a liar.
That's really all there is to it, Aria. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 20:04:33 -
[5] - Quote
Diana, I have a question for you:
Diana Kim wrote:Some people will consider using slaves unethical. Some people will consider using slaves ethical. Some would even consider vitoc-ed slaves as ethical. It is just what our culture teaches us and there is NO single answer of whether a certain type of crewmember is ethical or not - everyone will have different opinion.
But what we can compare, it is efficiency of crewmbembers. And efficiency of slaves on a military vessel, especially drugged ones, is lacking.
Considering your stance on sexual activity outside of procreation, isn't this a double-standard? Slavery is ok for the Amarr because it's their culture, but enjoying sex is bad, deviant, and evil no matter who you are? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:28:54 -
[6] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Only, Arrendis, whether what the Amarr did and/or do is awful wasn't the question. The question was whether there's no meaningful difference between them and the Sani Sabik, whose collective reaction to such a sentiment, should they get the chance, would kind of boil down to, "Challenge accepted!"
The fact that Sani Sabik seems to be basically the Amarrian error state is at the heart of me really not wanting to see the Empire fall even if that were a possible thing. The likely fallout from that would be....
It seems to me that one of the most dangerous sentiments in this cluster is, "It can't be worse." It's really, really rare for that thought to be true.
I'll never claim it couldn't be worse. Only that the Sani are different from the rest of the Amarr only in the particular flavor of self-indulgent religious justification for their obscenities. Just because the mainstream Amarr collectively say 'that's not what we want to do' doesn't mean that they wouldn't, if it was. Or that they wouldn't justify it with 'God said so'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:50:26 -
[7] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: I don't feel the desire or ability to indulge themselves given justification is unique to my "people".
And yet, the vast majority of the cluster has managed to avoid openly endorsing enslaving other peoples for generations with the express purpose of destroying their cultures.
Funny, that. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 22:02:59 -
[8] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: If you're claiming they're only different in their "particular flavor," you're implicitly saying neither is worse than the other; they're just different flavors of an otherwise indistinguishable invasion.
Neither is. They're both the sort of thing that should be met with a bullet to the head from anyone who doesn't endorse them.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 22:08:11 -
[9] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: It's the nature of the justification, rather than the people. Unless you feel the desire to enslave is endemic to the people and being and being "Amarrian" somehow makes us so very different to everyone else.
I think the Amarr hold that being Amarr makes you different from everyone else, and fully justified in commiting your atrocities because your 'Book of Why We're Better' says so. And until the atrocity ends, it should be opposed. If I thought we'd accomplish more than just annihilating ourselves and expanding the proportion of Matari in chains from 'some' to 'all', I'd be right there with Miz on burning the Empire down to ash. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 22:09:18 -
[10] - Quote
Kaatana Deikano wrote:Wow this off-topic thread actually kinda got derailed. That's impressive.
No, it didn't. It's currently keeping an off-topic discussion from happening in another thread, by bringing it here.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3385
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 23:04:23 -
[11] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: That's a product of the belief, rather than the people. Thus the belief needs to change. Unless you're saying I should be purged as a slaver waiting to happen?
That's quite an inference you're taking there. To be blunt:
Do you support slavery? If so, your clone contracts should be cancelled and you should be shot. Do you oppose slavery? If so, great. If you're still in the Empire, what are you doing to end it? If nothing, then you're actions say you're indifferent. Are you indifferent to it? Congratulations, you're giving slavery your tacit support! Let's get you that bullet. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3385
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 23:23:07 -
[12] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:If you're intending to shoot everyone who is indifferent to slavery, you're going to have to broaden your focus from the Amarrians.
Angels and other non-governmental slavers get shot all the damned time. Everyone pretty much agress on shooting them, too. Well, except for them. But that's the situation with the Amarr, too, isn't it?
Quote: I'm not indifferent, I'm also not going to fight. A change of attitude is needed. That I will argue for, but a change of attitude is difficult when people whose cause you might support are unwilling to look past the fact of your birth and are willing to blame upon you things you have had no hand in
Are you doing anything about it? Note that I'm not saying you need to be going around shooting people to be doing something about it. Are you actively working to change public opinion? Are you denouncing corporations and individuals profiting from human bondage? Are you refusing to spend ISK buying ships and materiel in Amarr while the Empire supports slavery?
Or are you just shaking your head in disapproval while you continue to buy products made with slave labor? Doing business in stations owned by corporations that hold slavesGÇölike say, the Amarr VII Emperor Family stationGÇöand so letting your taxes and broken fees support slavery?
If you live within the Empire, either you're doing something about it, or you're supporting it. If you don't want it to be up to people willing to shoot you in the head... fix it yourselves. The longer you take, the more bullets we buy.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3393
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 03:38:17 -
[13] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:I live in Gallente space. Most of my trading occurs in federation stations. Or stations run by SoE. In my first years after leaving the empire I undertook a significant body of work for a number of matari corporations. As always when a capsuleers engages in such activities, there were casualties. I'm sure you're aware of what casualties they might be. Now I'd rather set the example that not all Amarrians are as so many wish to view them. I'm not a fighter nor an activist. I will offer support to those who request it, but not to those who would snarl and snap as if the identity of a persons father taints them indelibly.
Well, you're the only one who's made that assertion, so feel free to keep complaining about it.
If you're not contributing to the Empire anymore, then there you go: you're not providing them with tacit approval of slavery. No bullet to the head on that score. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3393
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 03:42:10 -
[14] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Now think about it, how someone with working synapses in their brain could imagine that paying to a hired worker is funding someone's activity? I am not even speaking about criminality or a terrorism at all, but simple concept.
When you pay for a worker, you pay for what they do in your service or according to contract you hired them for. When you are funding personnel you support them with money for them to do their own activities, that you might get profits from.
Yup. You're giving them money. You're funding them. Glad to see you've clued into that little bit. So, if they take that money and use it in the furtherance of terrorist goals, and you've made a consistent policy of hiring them to be the dominant portion of your crew, then you're knowingly giving money to terrorists.
And that makes you legally culpable. Congratulations. Keep trying to weasel out of what you've repeatedly admitted to: crimes against the State. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3395
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 12:56:55 -
[15] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: You condemn a great many people for a decision they're not even aware they've made. If you live your life in a cave, what can you know of the colour of the sky? If someone arrives and tells you to leave the cave, do you embrace them as saviour? Or fight them for fear of the unknown? What if someone tells you that you must die for living in a cave, when the cave is all you've ever known?
And now you're conflating slavery with something that doesn't affect anyone else. Tell me, do you really believe that there are people in the Amarr Empire who've never heard of the Minmatar Republic? Who've no idea that Matari are kept as slaves? That there was a slave rebellion, or that Empress Jamyl I became Empress after fending off a fleet of Matari vessels intent on liberating slaves?
Do you think anyone who lived through the wall-to-wall Jamyl-for-Messiah hype after she died doesn't know it?
We are all responsible for the choices we make, even when our choice is to not make a choice. To attempt to excuse people from their responsibility as human beings to own their own decisions is to infantilize them, to render them nothing more than brain-damaged children who can't possibly be expected to make their own decisions.
Who exactly is it insulting 'your people' now? The person treating them like adults and demanding they act like it? Or the person who insists they can't be expected to know what they're doing? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3395
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 15:21:15 -
[16] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: I'm not excusing them, I'm suggesting that their experiences aren't as "worldly" as yours, that the information they're offered and the choices available to them aren't as easy or as informed as you'd like to believe. That when you have, for generations, been told that this is the way things are that a shift in view point isn't an easy thing. Especially when the same Dogma continues to be taught and expounded upon. Reserve your hate for those who truly deserve it by maintaining a poisonous system for their own gratification and glory, rather than those who might otherwise have lives you consider blameless but for the place of their birth. You'll find people far easier to persuade if you don't act like they all need to be shot on principle alone.
Are they human beings?
Are they capable of rational thought?
Are they capable of empathy?
Do they want to be enslaved? To see their children under the lash?
What other 'learning' do you need?
You talk of reserving my hate for those who maintain the system... the system is maintained by the apathy of the common men and women of Amarr. Speak all you want about the terrible monsters keeping the masses down... but those monsters make up less than 0.001% of the Empire. The masses are kept down because the masses let themselves be 'kept down'. Because for all you plead oppression, the masses of Amarr still get to hold themselves better than a slave. The most menial drudge of a free Amarr holds himself above the most skilled and cared-for slave.
You seek to excuse the masses' apathy with feeble whining about 'they don't know any better'. They are human beings. They can see other human beings. They can imagine whether or not they would want to be slaves themselves. In every other major culture of New Eden, that is enough to say 'slavery is wrong'. But not in Amarr. Because the dregs, the poor, and the vermin at the bottom of Amarr society still get to tell themselves 'hey, at least I'm not a slave'.
The idea that they should need more persuasion than 'would you want that to be you?' is insane. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3395
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 15:22:39 -
[17] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Two pages into an off-topic discussion thread and it has turned into a debate about slavery. I am guessing within another 3 it will be about comparing who is the most Caldari.
As long as it keeps those arguments from detailing other threads, that's kind of it's purpose, yes. Congratulations on being able to grasp elementary concepts, Ayallah.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3399
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 17:13:31 -
[18] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Do you suffer the same misery as Miz does, Arrendis? Endlessly expecting the world to be more than it is?
If you don't, then maybe channeling her isn't a good idea.
I don't expect it, Aria... but that doesn't mean I can't hold it accountable for failing. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3399
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 17:26:51 -
[19] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: I'm sure it's very comforting to cast judgement on people from so lofty a perch, in possession of riches and freedom most can't even comprehend.
I'm pretty sure that as a muck-covered eight-year-old, crawling through ventilation shafts on a space station to work for hours a day, every day, on machinery that had to function or we died... I still understood 'you own your crap' and 'treat people the way you'd want to be treated'.
So don't go trying to pull that 'suuuuure, you're rich and a capsuleer' nonsense. It's just another line of crap you're selling to deflect from the idea that children know better than the adults you're trying to absolve.
Quote:What Amarr needs is a change of doctrine and incentive for that change. If you're going to start executing people simply because they're guilty of being human, things are going to get very lonely.
'Don't get shot' doesn't sound like incentive?
Quote: You do not understand their position, because you have not been raised to believe that you are better than everyone else. It is a comforting lie, of course people wish to believe it.
And that is the crux of the problem, isn't it? You claim 'oh, it's not their fault, they're being lied to, the poor babies', and I say that's fedo droppings. They got their heads handed to them by the Jove, and they make common cause with the Caldari because they're afraid of being outgunned by the Federation. (And if you think they're only worried about 'the Federation + the Republic', then you're claiming the Republic is at least as strong as the State, something I'm pretty sure most State loyalists and just about every clear-eyed strategist in the cluster would find laughable).
That simple math says 'I guess you're not better than everyone else, huh?' Your 'god' is a joke. An all-powerful being who tells his people they're the chosen ones and then delivers them right into the teeth of not one, but two enemies they can't defeat, and doesn't lift a finger to stop them from losing fully two-thirds of the slaves they've taken because he told them to.
And if the Amarr aren't willing to acknowledge that because they're too lazy to bother to think? Because it's just 'easier' to not think about it? Then we're right back to tacit support for the atrocity, and an engraved 'Please, I want to be shot in the head'.
Quote: I'd rather not be at odds with you, I don't argue with your end goal, I simply disagree that genocide is required to achieve it.
Well, you're the Amarr here, sister. Better get to fixing the problem from within, before we do have enough bullets. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3399
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 17:31:23 -
[20] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote: It is strange how you can not see the clear as day difference between me and Arrendis in this regard.
They see me saying they deserve to be shot, and hear it as saying we should start shooting now.
Note the difference, Halcyon, Aria. I'm saying you need to fix your crap before we decide indiscrimnate genocide is the only option.
Miz says it already is, and it should start today.
The longer you wait, the more people who agree with me... decide we agree with her.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3400
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 18:34:47 -
[21] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:... to clarify, I do not propose indiscriminate genocide. Do be careful of the hyperbole here. It's rarely recognized for what it is, which is why I am rather careful not to use it more than necessary. Implying genocide is the solution to aim for is not, and I'd be grateful if you didn't put those kinds of ridiculous words in my mouth Arrendis.
You've called for all-out war just in the last two weeks, Miz. And as we saw in that discussion from the replies other people had... that would mean people targeting civilian populations, and indiscriminate genocide. It may not be what you intend... but it's what you'll get. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3400
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 18:51:42 -
[22] - Quote
That sounds painful, Aubbes. You ok? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3401
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 19:05:25 -
[23] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:That is absolute nonsense and you know it. Keep rewriting other people's posts if you wish, but don't start inventing that crap wholecloth with me.
What's nonsense? That all-out war will mean genocidal attacks on civilian populations? I'm sorry, did you miss this during our earlier conversation:
Tyrel Toov wrote: Actually, it was working just fine until a zombie attacked the fleet with a Jovian super weapon. If we take steps to ensure mutually assured destruction (such as poisoning entire planets), then it's a fight even the Amarrians would be loath to take. We have proven our resolve to do it before, and the Amarrians know we will do it again if push comes to shove... and they are out one Jovian super weapon, if I recall.
You say you don't want genocide.You know what? I believe you. I've never known you to intentionally advocate for killing non-combatants out of hand. It's still what your 'we should go to war now' will get. I don't want the war to start, but I've got no illusions about how we'd go about fighting it. Open that door for the noblest of purposes, but never doubt for a second that they'll be a whole lost of 'I just want my revenge' killing going on. Most of it won't be eggers, but it'll happen, and it won't be confined to legitimate military targets. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3401
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 19:12:32 -
[24] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Halcyon Ember wrote:Arrendis wrote:Well, you're the Amarr here, sister. Better get to fixing the problem from within, before we do have enough bullets. I feel they'd be no more likely to listen to a traitor and heretic than they would someone threatening to shoot them all. This change needs to come from those possessed of both faith and standing. If you have ideas to present beyond "shoot everyone" I'm all ears. The Empire could always, just, you know, stock up on laser crystals while they're stocking up on bullets. (Pretty sure this is what's actually happening, in the wake of the Elder Fleet and all that.) That way the war's way less likely to come and some progress can be made in the meantime.
It pretty much is, Aria... but it's not making the war less likely, just more eventually destructive if the Empire doesn't change its ways. There's simply no room for compromise between 'we get to have slaves' and 'no, you don't'. It's a binary proposition. One of those positions is defensible by means other than 'na-na-na God says we can do it'. The other... is the Amarr.
And Halcyon, weren't you just saying 'you don't understand them, you can't tell them how they should change'? Now you're demanding I provide all of the labyrinthine knowledge and particular details needed to make the Amarr say 'oh, wow, now we understand that commiting horrible crimes against entire races is wrong!'?
I've offered a pretty simple and direct motivator. You want a different one... your turn. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3403
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 19:26:49 -
[25] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:You think like a goon, Arrendis. New Eden doesn't work that way.
Right. Because there's no way the recent Kyonoke bioweapon attacks weren't initiated by a state actor. Except, apparently, they were. And there's no way someone intentionally aiming for a planetary population couldn't hit multiple locations in a period of days just by moving through civilian transport systems while contagious, but not yet expressing. Except, you know, they did.
Put that on a single planet, moving around for four days, instead of through different star systems.
It doesn't take nearly as much 'firepower' as you seem to think. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3410
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 01:26:37 -
[26] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:If it was that easy, it would have happened years ago, weeks ago, today, tomorrow, next week and years to come in a perpetual cycle of death. Hell, I'd probably be involved at some point. No Arrendis, genocide isn't that easily accomplished. Spend a few years carrying around the wrath required to enact something like that and I think you'll find it's easier said than done.
The fact that the blood raiders can figure out how to do it and you can't isn't my problem, Miz. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3424
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 16:05:45 -
[27] - Quote
allsense? Prosense? Like, omg, yeah, totally? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3426
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 17:08:34 -
[28] - Quote
It's why we get along so well. Aria and I are both so reserved and understated... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3447
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 18:39:27 -
[29] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Then the world is insane. You noticed. Yes, if we accept Arrendis's beliefs. But that means it's madness to act like it should be otherwise. Try as you might, it won't be. We'll still be a mix of kindness and cruelty-- and disregard. People are people, and they'll keep being people. Possibly the greatest single monster of our world is a person who couldn't live with that, and decided to make us "better."
By that logic, Aria, all laws are monstrous. People are going to murder, steal, commit assaults of all kinds upon one another, so why should we try to compel people not to?
We'll always be a mixture of kindness and cruelty. Some offenses, though, we don't tolerate. 'God said to' is just as much bullshit as 'the fedo told me to do it'.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3452
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 06:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: It should be pretty clear from the sheer number of non-believer entities cheerfully enslaving people that "God said to" isn't needed, Arrendis.
Nope. It's not needed. It is however, the excuse the Amarr use for why it's ok. The Angels and other criminal groups, on the other hand, don't even claim it's ok, only that they can do it, so why the hel not?
And yes, as you assert the 'property rights' claim, that still doesn't mean any of those groups have claimed it to be ethical or morally-sound, only that they can get away with it, much like murder and theft.
So if your defense of the Amarr is 'criminals do it too', that's really not exactly a great defense.
Quote: Unless you're really willing to say that the ships they fly are full of nothing but people who deserve to die, it seems hard to say that what you claim is so intuitively obvious is actually so obvious.
You mean those pirtate organizations? Like the Angels, the Blood Raiders, etc?
Yeah. They all deserve to die. That's why we're killing close to a million Blood Raider ships a month, you know?
Quote: If humans do a thing, it is within human capacities to do it. If humans do a thing in large numbers, as whole societies, then it's hard to say it's even against human tendencies to do that thing.
There are some things (like stealing from your neighbor, as opposed to that person from two towns over) that humans really do seem to be wired against.
Actually, no. People aren't wired against 'it's ok to steal from your neighbor' any more than they're wired against slavery. 'You shouldn't steal from your neighbor' is an outgrowth, of, you know, any given person being outnumbered by their neighbors. Coincidentally enough, most people will also say 'you shouldn't up and enslave your neighbor'.
All that unpleasantness is reserved for 'two towns over'. For 'The Other', regardless of who that is. It's all basically tribalism in action. Members of the group are protected, those not in the group are fair game. And no, slavery is no different from theft or murder in those cases.
After all, how often do you hear the Amarr saying 'you know what? We should totally enslave one another'? Y'don't. I wonder why. Oh, right, they're members of the tribe. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3476
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 02:15:58 -
[31] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:So ... Arrendis? I need to stop talking with you about this, now.
You should consider, Aria, what it says about people when they find the idea of being decent to one another so dangerous that it can't even be discussed.
And so should those requiring your silence.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3478
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 04:02:57 -
[32] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: The Praefecta's faith is different from mine. The way I'd go about defending her civilization kind of leaves out something a little ... important, to her and those around us. To me, God's presence or absence makes basically no difference. That's not, of course, the way the Amarr themselves see it, though. Faith is a little central to their sense of themselves.
Well, considering the original point was that they justify not having to follow the same rules as everyone else because the magic sky-fairy says they don't.... yeah, God being part of their justification for committing crimes against humanity is kinda pertinent, I'll give you that.
Quote: And Arrendis, before you start in with something smug about God? God is probably the reason the Amarr are so strong.
Whether He exists or not.
No argument there. Any commonality that can be used to draw a stark line betwee 'us' and 'them' is useful for tribal unity and strengthing the bonds ot the group. It doesn't have to be rationalGÇöin fact, it's best if the claim is specifically designed to not be testable.
You wouldn't want your special claim to be something that can be disproven, after all.
So, yeah. Belief in 'God' being a source of unity and strength? Totally agree. Especially if he doesn't exist.
Edit to add: Heck, if it's something you can't prove, then you get the added benefit of being able to claim that everyone pointing out that you can't prove it is persecuting you for your beliefs. That helps to bring the community in more tightly, and strengthens the social bonds even more. Nothing brings people together like an outside attack, after all. The more completely untestable your claim is, the better. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3487
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:36:21 -
[33] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: He's probably about as real as the "rights," including "human rights," the Gallente and certain Matari worship, Arrendis.
Though the idea of "inalienable rights" seems like it has the potential to tear people apart instead of drawing them together. ... Gods, it just occurred to me how much fun Gallentean heretics must be!
I thought you were more familiar with the sociological underpinnings that determine fundamental rights, Aria.
Quote:"I have an inherent right never to pay any taxes and to do basically whatever I want because of this obscure pseudo-legal arcana I found by cross-referencing a set of archaic legal wording with some weird snippets of history I once heard about and am conveniently interpreting in my own favor!"
Is that a thing? That happens? Oh, please do let it be!
Indeed it is. Suck whack-a-dos style themselves 'sovereign citizens', and hold that the government has no authority over them because of their natural rights. And they're perfectly correct regarding those natural rights: anyone has the natural right to refuse to submit to taxation. Doing so, however, effectively opts-out of the social contract between them and the people around them (eg: 'society') and so they're no longer entitled to the goods and services society providesGÇöincluding things like stargate activation so they can go live in another society.
I expect the Gallente argue about this quite a lot. I know on Huggar station, our response was pretty straightforward and fair: 'You're right, you don't have to pay taxes. Disabling the door controls and shutting off life support to your quarters now.' |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3487
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 16:40:15 -
[34] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Loss of your post mortal existence
You mean being told that you won't get the completely unverifiable thing that you only thought you were getting because you were told that you were by the same people who tell you 'X, Y, and Z are bad unless it's us doing it, because the invisible magical sky fairy we can't actually prove exists said we should'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 17:34:54 -
[35] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: I'm a little surprised your belief in fundamental rights lets you be that, well, casual about the rebuttal.
It does seem kind of poetic, though.
Well, there's two kinds of 'fundamental rights', really. First, there's your actual, inviolate natural rights. These rights cannot be taken away from you. Doesn't matter what anyone does, how much power they exert, they can't take these rights away. These rights can summed up fairly succinclty:
- You have the natural right to do whatever it is you are capable of doing.
This means that yes, technically, you have the natural right to kill other people. Those people have the natural right to get pretty pissed off about the attempt and try to kill you right back. It's not a situation conducive to 'polite society'. Or, you know, 'society', at all. But they're there, and they underlie everything. That's what the SovCit mo-mos are on about when they talk about their right to not be taxed, even though most of them don't quite Get ItGäó.
Then you have your 'fundamental rights'. These are the basic rights that make society society, and they can be summed up pretty succinctly, too, though it involves an overview of the concept of the social contract:
- It is desirous and beneficial to any population that the members of that population refrain from actions that injure, harm, or impair the well-being of the population as a whole.
- Pursuant to those ends, the individual agrees to waive their natural rights to undertake those actionsGÇösuch as killing one anotherGÇöin order to secure assurances that others will waive their natural rights to subject the individual to those self-same actions. (eg: "You agree not to kill people, and people will agree not to kill you.")
- Agreement to participate in the social contract is not required to be explicit, and shall be tacitly inferred from participation in, and benefiting from, society.
Thus: "I have the fundamental right to expect that I will not be subjected to the injurious behaviors I am expected to refrain from within society." |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 17:42:25 -
[36] - Quote
The corrolary that makes the 'well, ok, we'll just turn off the air' thing work, btw, is 'that also means that if you decide you don't want to meet your obligations to society, society doesn't need to meet its obligations to you.' |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:14:51 -
[37] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: Yes
[Insert lazy attack on matari beliefs]
First, I think you'd need to have the first idea what those are.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:26:27 -
[38] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Okay. ... It's a pretty individualistic take on how society works, though. Also, I'm unclear on how you can consider something "fundamental" that can vary really widely from society to society.
I'd say, rather, that it's a view of how society works from the limited perspective of a being that can only perceiving being one individual at a time. I mean, it's all well and good to talk about 'the collective', but with the exception of the Sansha, and the faux-Sansha that wander around claiming to be 'transhumanists' instead of 'meat drones', people don't experience collective motivations. They experience individual motivations. Some of those might be framed as prioritizing the collective, if that's how the individual was taught to think, but they're still experienced individually.
Quote: Take the "right" not to be murdered. Say you're in one of the old iron age feudal aristocratic states, like pre-uplift Achura (it's been on my mind a little lately). It doesn't take murdering someone for you to lose the right not to be murdered; all it takes, for a common person, is to offend a member of the aristocracy, who then acquires the right to murder you. Snikk! Better luck in the spirit world (but don't **** off the celestials, either).
Is that framed as murder, though, or is that frames as societally-sanctioned execution? I know that seems like a semantic thing, but that's kind of the crux of things: societies themselves are just constructs, just illusory fictions that individuals tell themselves (again, because you can't experience things as plural) in order to reassure themselves of the general safety of their living conditions. We cling to social order because we fear the dangers inherent in not having others to support us and help us meet the needs we can't necessarily meet ourselves. Which is a perfectly natural fear.
But 'society' is just an abstraction, a shared hallucination of consensus. And so unless the society explicitly says that that aritsocrat killing the commoner is murderGÇöand that it's okGÇöthen murder is still not ok. And I think you'll find that in those iron age societies, that aristocrat's actions would've been seen as 'justice' or 'discipline', not 'murder'.
Quote: It's not fundamental in the slightest. Basically everything outside of that first primary "right" is negotiable, and sometimes negotiated.
You miss the specific meaning of 'fundamental' in this framework. It refers to the mutual abrogation of natural rights in order to make society work. It doesn't matter which rights are abrogated, only that everyone is abrogating their rights in accordance with a collectively agreed-upon societal framework. In your example, everyone in that society tacitly agrees that that aristocrat's got the right to kill.... but again, I doubt they'd call it murder. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:28:35 -
[39] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: I'm just not sure what your agenda is at the moment
Having laid out precisely what my agenda is, just again in the last few days, I guess I'll leave you to find the trail of breadcrumbs.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3492
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 18:59:56 -
[40] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Correct. But, also, since societies define murder in the first place, it's also not murder in the absence of any society at all.
Precisely. Societies define the collective good for the society.
Quote: I ... guess it doesn't seem very fundamental if it's not mutual. Or if it requires conditions. Or ... a lot of other stuff, actually. "Fundamental" seems to basically mean "foundational," and ... it seems like the rights you're talking about here are just ordinary legal ones. And, particularly, I'm not seeing any right here that comes with just being human. You were talking about "human rights" before, right?
Well, on the one hand, of course it's all mutual. Everyone's mutually agreeing to the same framework. That doesn't necessarily mean agreeing everyone occupies the same place in that framework. But the aristocrat would agree, for example, that if a higher authority, a 'king' for example, stripped him of his lands, rank, and title, then he himself could also be executed out of hand for daring to behave in the same manner as the man he's executed.
As for 'human rights', in a very real way, these harken back to the concept of natural rights. Human rights are, essentially, the right to basic consideration for biological, psychological, and emotional needs. In the absence of societyGÇöif we were, still, simply another primate attempting to scratch out an existence in the wilds of whatever planetGÇöthese would be the things we would seek out, universally. A few examples:
Life. Life is often listed as an 'inalienable right' or a 'human right', but what it really is is simply a prerequisite. To deny someone lifeGÇöie, to kill themGÇöis to deny them the exercise of their other rights.
'Liberty'. A grand exposition and imagery, but really, it just comes down to agency, the ability to exercize one's own will as it pertains to how you go about doing the rest of the stuff on the list.
'Happiness'. Again, it's a lot of high-falutin' language for a far more concrete concept: Satisfaction, fulfillment. Joy is ephemeral, it's fleeting and gone. What people have the right to is to feel like their decisions and their actions matter, if only to them. It's the mental half of agency.
And again, the reason those two are 'basic human rights' goes back to the idea that "this is what all humans would instinctively seek out for themselves if there was no society".
"Equality" - this one's kind of a no-brainer. The social contract only works if everyone's playing by the same rules. Those rules may give an advantage to some, and disadvantage others, which would seem like a violation of this principle, but the idea that it doesn't matter which of us is the artistocrat, whoever that person is has the exact same set of legitmate choices is what matters. The Gallente like to think one's all about individual equality, but really, that's just part of their 'counting noses matters' delusions.
And on and on. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3496
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 21:08:38 -
[41] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: ... hm. So, you're saying that a proper society necessarily provides all of those things as part of the "social contract."
Really, though, I think what a proper society provides is limitation-- repression or redirection of the animal you're speaking of, rather than its fulfillment.
It's not so much 'fulfillment' as 'channeling'. The animal is going to seek those things: to seek to meet its essential psychological need for agency and investment/satisfaction, just as it's going to seek to meet it's phsyiological needs. Society's responsibility is to provide ways to meet those psychological needs without feeling unduly restrained, or that the guidance of those drives into mutually-beneficial pursuits is particularly onerous.
When that happens, that's when people feel oppressed, and lash out from desperation. At a small scale, this is crime. On a larger scale, revolutionGÇöwhich is a blatant and obvious indicator that the 'civilization' has failed. The civilization may continue to limp along, as the Empire has since the Minmatar Rebellion, and can regain cohesion and regain its strength, but the fact you can walk doesn't mean you didn't break your leg six years ago.
I'd also say that systemic loss of life, liberty, et al in the service of the goal of 'more humans living closer together' isn't exactly an endorsement of the systemic loss of life etc. It's more a reflection of the basic nature of Man as a social animal. When those losses of life happen, they're not about 'we want to live with you guys so we will kill you until you let us'. They're about 'we want what you have, so we can make more of us. And if you let us make you into us, we won't kill your men and make brood-mares of your women'.
It's not exactly a civilized goal. Conflict like thatGÇöwarGÇöis actually a failure of civilization. You have two societies coming into conflict because neither one recognizes members of the other society as 'us', and thus part of the protected group.
To call that something in service of the larger goal of society (the abstract, as opposed to the dominance goal of a specific society) is rather like saying that killing all human beings is a great way to eliminate sickness and reduce ihfant mortality, in the long run. Sure, if everyone's dead, nobody's getting sick, and no babies die if no babies are born... but I'm not sure it really serves the spirit of your goal.
Quote: They make me more confident I'm right about something I don't want to be right about: that when it comes to "liberty," human beings aren't capable of living with what they want. That we get frightened, and look for some guiding source of authority to lead with a strong hand.
Welcome to 'why religion exists in the first place'. Yeah. Most people will always look for someone to tell them what to do when things get tough. Things get scary, they don't know what to do, they look for someone who seems like they do, and hope for the best. Even if that person is just as scared and clueless as they are.
Sorry, Aria. You're normal on that one. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3503
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 22:53:23 -
[42] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: There's religion and religion, Arrendis. There are a few that aren't actually big on telling people what to do.
There's religion, and there spirituality. What makes a religion a religion is the organized structure of beliefs that, yeah, pretty much universally say 'this is bad, that is good'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3504
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 23:14:24 -
[43] - Quote
Or I might find that what you're calling a religion is more accuratedly called a spiritual philosophy. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3507
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 04:44:51 -
[44] - Quote
Generally... and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here... but just in general, I've found that the only people who need to make sure people know they're above-average height...
... are the short folks.
Most of us just don't worry about it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3513
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 13:34:36 -
[45] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Are you trying to condense 99% of the IGS communication in a single place?
No, that's here. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3513
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 15:10:26 -
[46] - Quote
And yet you give me crap for being 'petty', Miz. How droll. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2017.05.11 15:59:38 -
[47] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Arrendis wrote:I WILL SEE THE MAKERS OF (Insert Produce Here) BROUGHT TO THEIR KNEES FOR THEIR CRIMES! (Insert Product Here) IS AN OFFENSE AND A TRAVESTY TO ALL RIGHT=THINKING PEOPLE IN THE CLUSTER!!! Just out of curiosity, exactly how many right thinking people do you think there are in the cluster?
That was idle threats, this is off-topic... which your question is, for idle threats.
And the answer is: statistically speaking, 1 in 9 people are left-handed, and since each half of the brain vaguely controls the opposite side of the body (not quite that simple, I know)... I'm gonna say 1 person in 9 is in their right mind. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3566
|
Posted - 2017.05.13 13:41:56 -
[48] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote: I've recently noted that you seem to be one of those people who use a lot of words to say nothing at all.
Actually, she tends to use a lot of words improperly to say very little, and when it's pointed out, attempts obfuscation. Think of her as a verbal octopus, changing colors and textures, and then jetting away in a cloud of ink. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3566
|
Posted - 2017.05.13 14:10:34 -
[49] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote: I like to use as few words as possible. I've been mocked for this in the past by certain edgier members of the community, but I personally find no value in obscuring intent behind a wall of prose.
With me, it's a war between brevity, and striving for clarity.
Brevity loses, a lot. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3568
|
Posted - 2017.05.13 16:28:56 -
[50] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: Then you may coinsider returning to your teacher so you can remember a few things such as "the finger is not special, is not necessary and means nothing". Specially pre-conceptions like "duty" and other a priori assumptions. The Totality does not care for such things.
Did i ever say it wasn-¦t important?
While you're calling out "assumptions", you might want to notice that in fact, you've just directly answered your own question. Yes. You've said 'it'GÇöevery it, every potential "it"GÇöisn't important. Right before you asked.
Soooo... I think I'm gonna trust Aria's 'assumptions' over your self-contradiction. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3569
|
Posted - 2017.05.13 17:02:42 -
[51] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:What was never had cannot be lost.
A good summary of your marbles, yes. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3573
|
Posted - 2017.05.13 20:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Loai Qerl wrote: That is the most important part of the summary, don't be ridiculous. ONLY brain jellyfish can have important feelings, and you have been saying this all along. Everything else? Not important. Must become jellyfish first. Only jellyfish things matter.
So close, no matter how far.
Yeah, but let's face it: your opinion's not important. You said so. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3592
|
Posted - 2017.05.14 17:00:51 -
[53] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: You pick someone that believes in some sort of deity as a reference in "spiritual" matters?
If you meet god on the road, kill it.
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: She is a doctor in theology, how would she earn that degree without compared mythology and some sort of insight on the structure of our paths and the other factions?
So, is she someone who's unqualified, or someone who's an authority? You can't have it both ways. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3595
|
Posted - 2017.05.14 19:30:46 -
[54] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Arrendis wrote: So, is she someone who's unqualified, or someone who's an authority? You can't have it both ways.
Of course you can have both
No, you categorically cannot. You first object to her being used as a reference based on the assertion that as an outsider, she's incapable of understanding and so unqualitied to judge. You even go so far as to put 'spirituality' in scare quotes as a means of showing that as someone who believe in a deity, she cannot possibly understand. Then immediately, you turn around and claim that because she's a Doctor of Theology[1], she must have a solid understanding of all sorts of spiritual belief systems and so of course she's a qualified authority to cite in this case.
The two statements directly refute one another. They are mutually exclusive. That means if 1, then !2. Always. The rest of your responsie is just more obfuscation and attempting to weasel around the fact that you just tried to claim that A and !A are simultaneously true on macroscopic scale.
Someone's qualification to form opinions of someone else's beliefs, for the record, are not subject to the Quantum Uncertainty Principle.
1. This, mind you, doesn't mean anything beyond her qualifications as it pertains to Amarr theology. As a result, an Amarr Doctor of Theology isn't actually guaranteed to know a damned thing about Achurrian believes. That would likely be the field of Comparative Folklore, Mythology, or Anthropology, within the Empire. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3597
|
Posted - 2017.05.14 21:16:48 -
[55] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: Compare what you read with your answer.
Why? You tell us whatever you wrote wasn't important. And your reply won't be, either.
And even without that, nothing you said has any bearing at all on whether or not you can credibly claim A & !A simultaneously. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3597
|
Posted - 2017.05.14 21:17:37 -
[56] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Arrendis wrote:That would likely be the field of Comparative Folklore, Mythology, or Anthropology, within the Empire. Implying those are fields with any prestige.
Actually, just the opposite: the Amarr don't give a damn about anyone else's mythology.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3625
|
Posted - 2017.05.16 02:46:24 -
[57] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Arrendis wrote: Shut. The feck. Up. You're a pair of deranged nutjobs spewing fedo-feces that amounts to nothing.
Those new glasses are a good metaphor for your behaviour. How to shield your sight from what couldn-¦t be more clear and simple.
They're not new. But don't worry, I don't expect you to have a clue. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3649
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 12:44:57 -
[58] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:I keep all of my cats in one room, until a member of staff decides they're too cute and takes one home. Then I have to get more.
I keep mine in Delve. And I tell them to shut the feck up and stop sperging up comms. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3665
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 16:44:41 -
[59] - Quote
So, maybe there's a quantum entanglement effect from the bio-electric energy decay that comes with the cessation of chemical processes in the body? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3666
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 17:03:50 -
[60] - Quote
I still don't get this fad of corrective or faux-corrective lenses.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3677
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 21:24:17 -
[61] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Halcyon Ember wrote:Arrendis wrote:I still don't get this fad of corrective or faux-corrective lenses. Neither did I, but I found a pair that projects data on the inside of the lenses in such a way that you can read important things whilst pretending to care what people are telling you. Well there is the fashion aspect to it as well.
You mean the bit where you create visible indentations in the skin of your nose that never go away? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3677
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 21:26:26 -
[62] - Quote
Syenna Celeste wrote: She gloated all over my fleet channel about how she'd called you in. Believe me, I know a rat when I smell one.
Typical, traitorous Minmatar that aren't even really loyal to their own.
I pity you.
Samira and I are friends, yes. Haven't denied that. Also haven't denied that she asked me about the possibility of bringing a fleet down.
But keep on trying to smear someone widely known to be intensely an intensely loyal and devout member of PIE. I may not like their goals, but other than being deranged God-bothering slavery-supporters, they're not the worst people I've known. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3680
|
Posted - 2017.05.17 22:11:05 -
[63] - Quote
Halcyon Ember wrote:Well..until the next time someone pods me.
That depends on when you updated your medical clone, doesn't it?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3690
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 11:38:55 -
[64] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Arrendis wrote:You mean the bit where you create visible indentations in the skin of your nose that never go away? If that is a concern of yours you may want to reconsider the use of goggles.
They serve a purpose. The untinted corrective lenses, less so. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3690
|
Posted - 2017.05.18 12:03:24 -
[65] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote: I thought part of the screening process for capsuleer candidacy is having 20/20 vision. What do you have corrective lenses?
That's why I'm asking why people keep wearing those untinted ones! |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3713
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 15:12:21 -
[66] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I cant grasp the concept.
I think we're all getting used to that from you, yes. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3723
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 15:33:34 -
[67] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: Flaw and Perfection imply there is an "ideal" mold to aspire and the degrees of difference from this "idea" are bad.
My statement was more in the general sense, but since you went there... if you look at the context, we're talking about bio-engineering. There is no 'aspiring' in whether or not something will work. Either it will, or it won't. If it won't, the reasons it won't are flaws. You correct them. Period.
But thanks for demonstrating my actual point. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3748
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 15:48:58 -
[68] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: No need for better, worst, flaw, perfect, just different.
Let's try this in simple terms: you have two sets of genes, and 2 environments.
One of these environments is the open water, at depths of about 500-2000m. The other is a temperate rain forest.
One set of genes makes a fish. The other makes a marmoset.
Each of these sets of genes is better for producing a viable life form in one of those environments than the other is. Conversely, each of these sets of genes is worse for producing a viable life form in the other environment.
Alternately:
Two sets of human genes. Each makes a human being. One of these sets of genes will, inescapably, result in a malfunctioning heart valve that will require pre-natal surgery, or the human being cannot survive outside the womb.
That's a genetic flaw. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3749
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:03:55 -
[69] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: Only in your artificially created conception.
Welcome to engineering.
Engineering is an endeavor. It requires purposeGÇöeven if potentially unintended. Purpose means the capacity for evaluation: 'does this serve the purpose, or no?' This engenders the relative qualities of 'better', 'worse', as well as other relative qualities as 'flawed'.
As for your little attempt at being dismissive: my framework is no more artificial than yoursGÇöand no less. 'Artificial' and 'artifice' simply mean 'made by people'. And every thought you have is made by a person: you. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3750
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
Except, of course, that by inserting yourself into a discussion that had a specific context, you take on that context. And within the context of the discussion, genetic markers for poor vision qualify as flaws.
But as I said: your general inability to grasp anything comes as no surprise to any of us. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3750
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:32:42 -
[71] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: Even within that framework you can look at it without pre-conceptions.
A characteristic that is not perpetuated. You can reduce the description to this sentence.
Except, of course, that that's not the case at all. Congratulations, you've gotten hung up on the later example of the viability of life forms, and lost the fact that what was being discussed is that capsuleer training screens for genetic markers for poor vision. It has nothing to do with whether or not the characteristic is perpetuated, only that the characteristic, by nature of screening, es evaluated and found to be a defect, or 'flaw', that renders that genome unacceptable for capsuleer implants.
Soooo... no, you can't, because you're not talking about perpetuating the genome, you're talking about whether or not the genome is acceptable. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3756
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:38:38 -
[72] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:"no u"
"no u"
Repeat.
There, I just summarized the next few pages of the thread. Can we skip it?
Eh, fair enough. I think I've made my point anyway. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3756
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:39:58 -
[73] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: the suggestion I should silence myself.
All things considered, Aria, I don't know you've got much room to be aggrieved by that, right now.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3764
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 16:50:23 -
[74] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: You really didn't like me asking you to stop, I guess.
I'm just pointing out that having more or less pulled the 'please be silent' card, getting upset when someone does it to you less than 36 later on the same topic...
Not your best moment, my friend. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3769
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 17:09:32 -
[75] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: ... okay. Well, if you sincerely think they're comparable ...
I think, as you yourself have said: a) this matter involves your homeworld, b) you feel somewhat responsible, and c) you are somewhat less dispassionate about, as a result.
If I didn't understand that, I wouldn't have agreed to let go the specific topic you asked about.
I can certainly understand bristling when someone suggests you should shut up. My own reply to you on the topic was not my originally-drafted one. I think it was about my seventh.
What I'm saying to you now is: you are emotionally invested, and reacting emotionally. It's all very understandable, but that doesn't make for the kind of consistency in position you generally like to take.
Should you be quiet? That's entirely up to you to decide, and I think you're more than capable of making a considered, informed decision when you're thinking about it, and not just reacting. Should you be offended when someone asks something of you that you've asked of someone else? That's where the issue of pots and kettles comes in. If you don't feel this is a matter where you can be silent, then don't. But if you're listing 'please be quiet' as an offense against you, then you need to evaluate your own actions as well. That's all.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3770
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 19:41:07 -
[76] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Ms. Ember thinks Mr. Nauplius is manipulating me. That's a warning I've received before, at various points, but, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Mr. Nauplius is a lot of things. Do deceitful, wily, and subtle really strike you as among them?
Napkins wants one thing. It's a thing he can't get unless other people give it to him. He's consistently made moves to provoke people into giving it to him. That's manipulation. He doesn't have to be deceitful or subtle to do it. He simply has to say 'you're going to give me what I want, because I'm going to do something that makes you give me what I want'.
That's it. So, yeah.. he's pretty manipulative. Openly manipulative. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3770
|
Posted - 2017.05.19 19:48:46 -
[77] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:(In an absolute sense, it's maybe hard to communicate at all without manipulating someone. That's not usually what we mean when we talk about it, though.)
This is true. However, a child throwing a tantrum until it gets a cookie is still manipulation. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3786
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 23:30:41 -
[78] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:Your understanding of fine beverage technologies of production seems to be several millennia out of date. But that is neither here nor there and we are certainly far off topic at this point. I would apologize to the original poster for the derailment if she weren't a Sani Sabik cultist.
Just going out on a limb here, but 'your grasp of technology is millennia out of date'... when discussing a thousand-tear old whiskey... ironic, no?
You're right about the off-topic nature of it, though! et voila! |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3787
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 01:56:07 -
[79] - Quote
It's really less about the 'limitations of alcohol processing', and more about the fact that how you make it is what makes a whiskey, especially any of the bourbon varieties. Once you change that... you're not making the same thing anymore.
It would be like calling a malt a beer. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3787
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 02:39:18 -
[80] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Indeed, hence the comment that Cognac was a bad translation. I can guarantee you that a Lok'ri Estate Ancient is a drink that cannot be created or surpassed in less than a millennium.
And I wouldn't touch whiskey or bourbon with a fifty foot pole. I own vineyards, not wheat or corn fields.
The same general statement can be said of brandies, too. But as you say, cognac was a bad translation. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3791
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 10:14:53 -
[81] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote: "Beer or meads" is all I need to hear to know that the Lok'ri Orisian estates are an order of magnitude or three better quality booze than the nonsense you are describing. A taste of Lok'ri Extra Ancient and you will never want to touch a grain or honey based drink again.
Well, I'd offer you some Hug Juice, but I don't really think you can handle the sheer amazingness of it. I brought a jug to the Order of Jamyl fortizar in Safiron once, but none of the three Amarr in the room (Mitara, Aldrith, and Lyse) had the courage to try.
It's not Mizhara's engine degreaser... but it is illegal in all four empires for internal consumption. We make it on Huggar station, and last I checked, it's marketed as an industrial cleanser. So there are similarities... though of course, we age Hug Juice very carefully for six weeks in the finest handcrafted bilge pump outflow tanks. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3792
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 10:25:53 -
[82] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:You punks miss the whole idea of thousand-year-old alcoholic beverages.
The point is not that it tastes good, or is super strong, or whatever, because it probably isn't.
The point is that it is irreplaceable, and demonstrates that the owner has the wealth and prestige, to be able to afford a beverage storage room large enough and well-engineered enough, to be able to keep beverage bottles and barrels in drinkable condition for thousands of years.
Eh, if I wanna get pretentious like that, a thousand-year beverage is nothing. I can head on down to any of a hundred fat asteroids within a few jumps of me and drink four-billion-year-old water. Complete with natural minerals and painstakingly left completely unspoiled by the touch of modern technology. It's preserved exactly the way our ancestors swam in it when they were fish. We Matari even have a special word for the special, ultra-traditional blend of life-sustaining fluid and precise minerals, carefully stored in the original packaging since before life as we know it existed!
We call it "Dirty".
Dirty WaterGäó! The ultimate beverage for snooty people who think something is amazingly valuable just because it's old enough that it probably should've been reprocessed for the component atoms several times over now.
GET YOURS TODAY!
Dirty WaterGäó is a Registered Trademark of Yeah I Went There LLC d/b/a Whatcha Got To Say About That?, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Matari Smartassery Inc, Patent Pending. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3826
|
Posted - 2017.05.22 02:29:10 -
[83] - Quote
Eh, coffee's just a placebo for self-destructive behavior, anyway. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3841
|
Posted - 2017.05.22 20:23:04 -
[84] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Arrendis wrote:Eh, coffee's just a placebo for self-destructive behavior, anyway. If you consider pulling all-nighters for days at end to be self-destructive, yes.
No, actually... see, here's the thing: coffee, as normally prepared, is extremely bitter. That's because of which chemical receptors in the mouth and on the tongue coffee triggers and interacts with. Those specific chemical receptors are read by the brain as 'THIS IS BAD'... because that's actually why they're there. Most extremely bitter natural compounds are highly toxic. So we've got taste buds that interact with them expressly so the brain can go 'this is poison!'
So, when we drink coffee, there's a level of 'this is poison!' going on in the back of the brain. But we know, consciously, that coffee's safe to drink (it's actually not, especially for the young, but only in the same way the arsenic in apple seeds if technically not safe). As a result, there's a kind of mental clash between the conscious mind and the lower-order processing that basically places coffee-drinking in the same experiential category as... well... any inherently dangerous behavior that still triggers (as coffee's smell and caffeine both do) positive brain-reactions that result in a release of dopamine.
Coffee is literally a placebo for high-risk self-destructive behavior. It fools the brain into that same chemical chain of 'I'M DEFYING DEATH!!!' experience. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3860
|
Posted - 2017.05.23 01:36:14 -
[85] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:You do realise that there is more to coffee than just extreme bitterness and extreme wakefulness, right?
I do! But those two elements (Well, the bitterness, really, the caffeine's just a contributing factor) are the crux of the 'stand-in for self-destruction'. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3862
|
Posted - 2017.05.23 02:22:39 -
[86] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote: You might also want to recall that some of us really hate the bitterness and proceed to practically drown the thing in sugar and creamer.
Sure, but that's the funny thing about chemical receptors like taste buds: you can mask the bitterness, and you can make sure the amount of noise from the sugar and creamer overwhelms the conscious mind's ability to pick up on the signal of 'bitter!', but you can't block the taste. Those chemical receptors still get triggered, and the lower-order functions of the brain aren't fooled.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3867
|
Posted - 2017.05.23 13:51:34 -
[87] - Quote
And continuing the culinary vein...
Casserina Leshrac wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Bloody war of the Blood Age of Blood day 1.9 log
Operation Cheese Sandwich Debriefing
A Cheese sandwich was consumed.
The sandwich consisted of 3 slices of bread with two slices of cheese.
It was quite good. Two quick questions. What kind of cheese? And what kind of bread? Very important questions.
There's also the issue of if it was a 'normal' cheese sandwich or a grilled cheese. Of course, she's already got the balance completely off with the extra wad of empty carbs in the middle, but maybe the cheese slices were each 5mm thick... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3869
|
Posted - 2017.05.23 18:33:13 -
[88] - Quote
Alright then, I'll just have to review the miniluv kill logs to see which types of cheese have been getting shipped in that direction. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3882
|
Posted - 2017.05.24 04:08:06 -
[89] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:That's rich talk about ego from someone with what, six different titles after their name?
Actually, those aren't titles. She had her name legally changed to all that. It's why they call it a 'Long-form certificate'
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3883
|
Posted - 2017.05.24 10:59:34 -
[90] - Quote
The real question is: who ticks his? |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3898
|
Posted - 2017.05.24 23:37:45 -
[91] - Quote
Ain't just you. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3917
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 13:34:57 -
[92] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:You two. Get a room. Or a sack.
Really do hate to burst everyone's bubble, but been there, almost did that. And all things considered, I somehow doubt someone in my position getting involved with someone with her affiliations would be encouraged. Sorry. You guys will just have to keep writing the slash-fic. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3924
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 18:09:11 -
[93] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Let's not go down this avenue.
Can we go down the Crystalline Boulevard? I hear it's a massive military bunker, cleverly concealed with decadence and hedonism, and that sounds like a great setting for some this stuff. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3925
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 20:11:26 -
[94] - Quote
I dunno, I was angling for a 'gunfights in the streets around the hoi polloi.' kind of thriller piece, but there guys are just weird. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3957
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 17:00:13 -
[95] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Along with that other new kid apparently having significant ties to both the Goons and Blooders
Mr. 'Are you at war with the cornfields'? Nah, he's got no ties to us that I can find. I suspect his connections lie more in the direction of NC. If he was attached to PL, he'd have more balls and get things wrong less often. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3960
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 17:30:46 -
[96] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I don't think NancyDotte have fallen that low on quality control.
I dunno, Vince is still there. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4032
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 18:52:42 -
[97] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Their industrial and financial power is now significantly improved, and it's even possible - although unproven as that Sotiyo kill showed - that they can and will undock something other than interceptor fleets these days.
What did you think of our interceptors in Gehi last night? Noticed your Loki survived. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4032
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 19:11:12 -
[98] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:They were honestly kind of underwhelming given the numbers. Getting out of the fight with pretty much equal efficiency when outnumbered two to one (+ super blob, mixed as it may have been) honestly shouldn't happen. Especially when a good quarter of that 'one' are just there to third party independently.
Basically, how can so many with so much do so very little? Not impressive, Arrendis.
Heh. Now you're back to ISK efficiency? C'mon, Miz, you know ISK efficiency is meaningless. The objectivie is all. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4032
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 19:41:23 -
[99] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Your objective was rather meaningless to us third parties, after all.
Third party. Riiiiight.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4034
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 19:57:49 -
[100] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I dearly hope you're not calling me a liar. We had no objective nor contract in Gehi, only an opportunity to join in on a fight. Should I start saving documentation on op announcements for you, if you have decided to start questioning the veracity of my word?
I'm not saying you're a liar. But it's certainly possible someone's not telling you everything.
Tell me the next time you shoot at NC. during these 'third party' ops. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4034
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 20:09:51 -
[101] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Why the hell would we shoot at friends during third party ops?
If you're coming in on one side or another, Miz, you're not a third party, you're reinforcements.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4043
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:10:29 -
[102] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:We're mercenaries, Arrendis. When we're reinforcements, we get paid.
No, see, when you get paid, then you're mercenaries. When you come in on a fight on one side for free, and choose your sides consistently because 'those are our friends', you're allies. In both situations, you're reinforcements. If you come into the fight and you're settled on being on one side of it, that's not being a 'third party'. You're part of one of the first two parties.
That's not narrative. That's picking a side. A third party is on their own side, and may shoot either of the first two. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4044
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:28:28 -
[103] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Your intentionally loose and slapdash definitions
Are nothing of the sort, and you know it. I can't help it if you don't like the truth.
Quote:If I consistently shoot Bleeders over Imperials, or over State forces or over Feds or whatever else, it does not make me an ally of any of them.
If you do it consistently, if, regardless of the odds or the situation, you side with the Imperials over the Blooders, then you are an ally of the Imperials where the Blooders are concerned. If you consistently shoot the State over the Fed, regardless of the situation or the odds, then you are an ally of the State when the Federation is involved.
A 'third party' would evaluate each fight and make different decisions based on the situations that present themselves.
Quote:An ally on the other hand can expect our swift and steadfast support.
Like I said: Next time you ever shoot NCdot, regardless of us being there, you let me know. Next time you fail to show up when they tell you to, let me know. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4044
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:40:04 -
[104] - Quote
Well, that's certainly what it looks like from here. And you've said multiple times you're not privy to the higher-level communications and decision-making in your alliance.
But ok, I can go with 'ask you to' instead if that makes you feel better.
Not that that has anything to do with whether or not you're actual third parties. Noticed you didn't have much comment on what looks like more than just my take on things, though. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4148
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 14:20:54 -
[105] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Although her views are a little, uh, "fringe," Ms. Kim's not actually unique or even very unusual in that.
Except, Aria, that she's clearly redefined 'The State' in her own personal headspace, to mean 'Me'. Anyone who disagrees with her is called a traitor. The statements of the CEP itself are denied and ignored in favor of Kim's personally-preferred version of reality.
She wraps it all in a manic declaration of loyalty to the State, but in the end, it's all about her aggrandizement, about her glory.
So very blooder.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4155
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 18:09:18 -
[106] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: So-- here's the question, though: if that's what she's doing, can she tell?
The Sani Sabik, by and large, definitely can.
Counter-question: If she can, would she ever admit it? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4157
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:16:27 -
[107] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote: Characterizing Sani Sabik only by self-aggrandizing ambitions is as accurate as saying if something has a pedicel it's an apple.
Fortunately, I didn't do that. Saying 'self-aggrandizing behavior is reminiscent of the Blood Raiders' is not 'All Sani Sabik only ever act like that' or even 'self-aggrandizment is all there is to the Sani Sabik'.
It's more like if I were to take your statement as not really bothering with my meaning, and only responding with that you wanted to see in it, and say 'how very Amarr'.
You know, if I did that.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4158
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 17:31:18 -
[108] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Ok, what did you say then when you posted "... it's all about her aggrandizement, about her glory. So very blooder."?
Well, given that I was building on the earlier statement that Diana's about 'blood drinking' away from being a Blood Raider, I would've thought it would be clear that I was saying her self-aggrandizement was the same kind of behavior you might expect to find in them.
Note: Just because you expect to find X behavior in a population doesn't mean X behavior is the only behavior they exhibit, or that that that behavior is the singular defining trait of a larger population (the Sani Sabik) of which your example (the Blood Raiders) are a subset.
Claudia Osyn wrote:He said
I already run around without pants on, do I have to make the shirt short enough that people can tell I don't wear shorts, too? NOT A 'HE'.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4167
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 22:40:26 -
[109] - Quote
Not mine, but sure. |
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