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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3375
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 21:45:13 -
[1] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:With CEP statement of Dragonaurs involvement in spreading of Kyonoke infection inside Caldari State borders
Just to be clear here, Diana, are you saying your only objection is that they used a biological weapon inside Caldari space? Using it on multiple civilian populations outside the State was perfectly ok for you? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3385
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 23:13:16 -
[2] - Quote
Actually, Makoto, since she's been paying them, they've attacked the State, and money is fungible*, wouldn't that mean she's been materially supporting terrorist activities against the State? In fact, since she's been making money off of their activitesGÇöspecifically, their activities as her crewGÇödoesn't that mean that her ships have effectively been a terrorist front? That opens her up to all sorts of conspiracy and racketeering charges if she doesn't inform the State of the locations of those Dragonaur she knows about.
I mean, speaking as someone who was a corporate officer in Caldari space for a time, and had to deal with potential criminal liability issues, and all.
* - Fungibility basically means that once money enters a common pool, one credit is indistinguishable from another. So if you need 40 ISK for ammo and 60 ISK for fuel, and I give you 40 ISK and Ali gives you 50 ISK, when you hit Jita a week later and buy everything, neither one of us can claim we were only giving you money for gas, because it's impossible to tell, ultimately, whose money went to buy the missiles. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3391
|
Posted - 2017.05.04 23:25:36 -
[3] - Quote
Ah, Diana, welcome to the lovely world of Racketeering in Criminal Organizations laws. You might want to study up on them. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3393
|
Posted - 2017.05.05 03:50:19 -
[4] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Given the number of people I know within this community who employ terrorists, criminals and traitors there are damn few who in a position to truly judge her.
There's a considerable difference, Pieter, between saying 'oh my god, Diana, how could you do such a terrible thing?', like just hiring psychopaths is somehow beyond the pale for any of us, and pointing out that someone who has literally advocated genocide on behalf of the State might be a damned hypocrite for knowingly harboring members of an anti-State terrorist organization. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3419
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 15:10:35 -
[5] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Piracy is a crime. Terrorism is warfare method.
An illegal method not recognized or protected by any articles of war. There's a marked difference, for example, between irregular/asymmetric warfare, and terrorism.
One of the hallmarks of this is that legitimate asymmetric warfare, the kind that is recognized and acknowledged as legal by the empires and CONCORD, focuses on military targets, with a specific attempt to minimize civilian casualties are required in order to avoid charges of war crimes.
Terrorism, on the other hand, involves specifically targeting civilian populations in order to foment and provoke (guess what!) terror. Civilian populations are targeted preferentially over military targets because the objective is to undermine the trust the population has in their government to protect them and keep them safe.
It is, expressly and specifically a war crime.
Note that last word there, Diana: war crime.
In this instance, the government they were undermining would be the one that declared them terrorists, ie: the State.
War crimes. Against the State. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3419
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 15:14:04 -
[6] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:I find it interesting that he keeps talking about "Civilized Society"
Well, since the word 'civilization' itself actually just refers to established cities and agriculture, maybe you should have a clue that 'civilized society' is pretty much any society that maintains sufficient population densitiesGÇöexpressly because in order to do so, the inhabitants must behave in a 'civilized' manner toward one another.
Whoever thinks 'civilized' means 'polite' needs to see a doctor about their cranial-rectal inversion. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3419
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 15:15:38 -
[7] - Quote
Kasuko Merin wrote:Bran Kignol wrote:I'm very intrigued by all this...
Who asked you to post this? Oh, never mind. We all know who asked you to post this.
Who the hel are you to question why anyone posts anything on the IGS? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3421
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 15:17:12 -
[8] - Quote
kul Shaishi wrote:Arrendis You're a member of goonswarm why don't you to Declare war on Kim and station camp
A)She operates in lowsec. Why would I need to declare war? B)We have no interest in attacking CalMil at this time. C)If this changes after the meeting of the Directorate in 3 hours, I promise, you'll be the last to know. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3430
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 20:32:15 -
[9] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Hahahaha what the **** is wrong with you
There is not enough ink in the cluster for that piece of writing. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3434
|
Posted - 2017.05.06 23:23:20 -
[10] - Quote
Diana, do you remember that whole 'drive a Nyx into a space station' thing?
That was terrorism.
Terrorism is not a legal form of warfare. Can you produce a single recognized authority on warfare (and no, you don't count) who says it is? |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3440
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 14:04:41 -
[11] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Keep in mind that Ria is just a liar, who claimed that I would execute people "for being ethnic Gallente"
Especially since now it's obvious you'll support dropping biological weapons on civilian populations even within the State.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3440
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 14:07:27 -
[12] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:You do know what semantic is and studies, right?
No. I know nothing of semantics. I will not argue the tiniest details of semantics for weeks on end. I'm also never given to sarcasm.
Ask anyone here.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3440
|
Posted - 2017.05.07 14:23:09 -
[13] - Quote
Mika Firestorm wrote: But really, what the heck, all of you, stop turning topics into trollfests. It is her crew and she can do with them whatever she likes. You don't like it? Well, swallow it. You can't do anything to stop her.
If you are so annoyed by her actions to the degree of this Ria, who started posting unrelated lies about her, go grab these crewmembers and hire them to your ships instead of making nuisance out of yourselves on forum. And make new topics about it. Easy, right?
Do you want clear, polite, respectful atmosphere in Summit media to talk in? Don't be like Ria.
Don't. Even. Start.
Seriously. When Diana's primary form of responding to any attack is to whine about 'lies' and wrap herself up in the uniform of the Caldari militia like that somehow gives her any authority, and then pulls crap like 'but terrorism isn't a crime in the State' (it is), 'the Dragonaurs aren't enemies of the State' (they are), 'Tibus Heth was never declared a terrorist and enemy of the State' (he was), and generall screaming 'I AM MORE CALDARI THAN THE CEP AND I AM RIGHT AND THEY ARE WRONG AND ANYONE WHO DARES TO POINT OUT THAT THE CEP SAYS I'M FULL OF CRAP IS LYING I DON'T CARE IF IT'S AN OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE FROM THE CEP THE CEP IS LYING!'...
No.
No, she doesn't get to expect a 'polite respectful atmosphere', since she never shows anyone else any respect. Ever. At best, she gives idle lip service to the idea by mouthing plattitudes about things said by other Caldari. That is, until they happen to disagree with her just a little bit, and then they are forever 'liars'. And then, it's her eternal crusade to show up whenever they say anything in order to continue her baseless slandering and nonsense.
And no, you don't get to expect to not be called to account for defending her crap, either. By providing the Dragonaurs with material supportGÇöknowinglyGÇöand admitting that she has sought out members of a terrorist organization to be the greater part of her crew for years after the CEP re-affirmed their status as a terrorist organization, she has made herself complicit in their war crimes against the Caldari State.
Do any of us have the authority to have her removed from the Militia? No. Do any of us have the authority to have her standings with the State cratered? No. But each and every one of us is more than within our rights to mock her open and blatant hypocrisy. We are all just as within our rights to label her a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, and in our estimation, a traitor to the Caldari State. And we are all just as within our rights to never let her forget it, if we so choose.
Because she did this. She chose to make this public statement. She chose to say 'LOOK AT ME, I HIRED TERRORISTS AND KNEW IT! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!' She chose to be the little attention-whore, just like always. And now that she's got it, she doesn't get to complain that she doesn't like the kind of attention she's getting.
Maybe she should have thought of that before choosing to paint a target on her own aft.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3452
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 06:45:20 -
[14] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Which is an utter lie, that only idiots will believe. Of course I don't support that crap and claiming that doesn't make you look smart at all.
You say that, but at the same time, the only crime the Dragonaurs have been charged with is terrorism. Most recently, for using a biological weapon on a Caldari city. And you say that's not a crime.
So... I dunno, Diana, looks pretty clear-cut from here. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3452
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 06:49:31 -
[15] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Affiliation and action while one can lead to the other, are not the same thing.
Not true. If any of those individuals gave money to the organization, and any money from the organization was used in the execution of terrorist acts, then they're legally co-conspirators.
Really, RICO laws are pretty clear about this all over the damned place. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 17:58:17 -
[16] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Previously, on "Another Drama at the IGS"
- Kim-¦s bosses say that an ideological group went above ideology and did bad stuff - Kim decides to remove all members of said group from her ship after reading about bad stuff
You missed the part where the citations of 'the CEP has reaffirmed the Dragonaurs are terrorists' are almost a decade old. They're been on the 'did bad stuff, illegal to be part of this group' list for a very, very long time now. Which makes hiring them in the last few years a slightly different flavor than you one you're presenting.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 18:03:18 -
[17] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: That is not true , that is fake news. Someone infected by kyonoke and who became ill , which resulted in him crashing his ship on the planet, caused the outbreak, was not a terrorist attack.
They were placed on a terrorist list , yet they had not committed any such acts. It was political move by their opponents. Politics is dirty game.
Really? So violating the containment on the Pit in order to secure the bioweapon in the first place, that wasn't a terrorist act? Pretty sure the State would say it is. And having knowingly done that, even approaching a population center is pretty much a statement of intent. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 18:04:18 -
[18] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Arrendis wrote: Not true. If any of those individuals gave money to the organization, and any money from the organization was used in the execution of terrorist acts, then they're legally co-conspirators.
That would be an action.
Since membership in the group that's been labelled as terrorists for years is voluntary, Deitra, affiliation is an action. You don't see me telling Miz 'oh, I'm a Goon, but I'm not responsible for the things Goons do', do you? No. I'm an enabler, I cop to it. My affiliation is voluntary, so being a part of this group is an active decision. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3471
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 20:47:53 -
[19] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: No it is not. More fake news.
No, Mr. I-Was-A-Dragonaur-Until-It-Got-Dangerous-To-Admit-It, just the opposite.
Note that I never claimed the initial intent was to attack that city. So let me walk you through this:
1) They breached the Pit in order to secure a sample. Not in dispute. 2) One pilot became infected and crashed on a populated Caldari planet. Not in dispute. 3) By the time he became incapacitated, this pilot, who knew he'd breached the Pit, would also have known he was infected. 4) At the time, there was no cure available. 5) There are no indications he attempted to alter course, warp to an empty location in space, self-destruct, or otherwise take action that would have lessened the risk to bystanders. 6) He went to a planet. It's not like he didn't know the planet would be there.
Relevant points: He chose to breach the Pit. He knew he was infected. He made no attempt to avoid population centers, and in fact, went to a populated planetary body. Knowing there was no cure.
That's more than enough for the criminal case to be made.
And none of that is in dispute, unless you'd like to offer evidence that he attempted to dodge the giant rock that he knew about a number of AU ahead of time, and somehow failed. Or, you know, that he attempted to warn the local civilian population as he was initiating warp that he presented a biohazard risk and should be placed in immediate quarantine by HAZMAT-equipped emergency responders.
Quote:who both have their own agendas.
Yes, and you certainly don't have an agenda as a "former" member of the organization yourself, do you? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3472
|
Posted - 2017.05.08 23:08:13 -
[20] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: We agree on points one and two. After that i believe he became sick , what happened was unintentional. If he could of done something i believe he would of.
So you believe that his first symptoms presented, and progressed all the way to complete incapacitation, within the time one warp? I mean, you've breached the Kyonoke Pit. You start getting sick. Gee, I wonder what it might be!
Just the possibility should be enough to alert local medical authorities and get yourself moving away from every celestial in the system, just on principle. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3473
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 01:12:23 -
[21] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:All i'm saying , is i believe what happened was unintentional. He was in his ship , became sick incapacitated and crashed , if he could of averted it , he would of.
Yes. You said that. What you haven't said is why you think he warped to a planet when he knew he was sick. Or if you believe he went from 'I feel ok' to 'I'm completely unconscious' in a matter of minutes. Especially since ships exit warp and stop. So he needed to actively drive toward the planet.
That's all I'm asking for: given the behavior we know ships exhibit, what makes you believe that his ship behaved in a way vessels are known not to behave? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3473
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 01:39:41 -
[22] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: What do you think ? that's what i want to know. Whats the point you are trying to make. Do you believe it was intentional ?
I think it's impossible for his ship to have warped from the stargate to the planet on its own. I think it's impossible for his ship to have driven itself into the atmosphere of a planet on its own. I think those two things mean it's impossible for him to have gotten where he was without making the decision to go there.
And that's intent.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3477
|
Posted - 2017.05.09 02:48:36 -
[23] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: Your trying to say , because he flew his ship close to the planet that's intent to crash it into the planet. Sounds like some god dam lawyer bull to me.
I'm saying thatGÇöspecific motive unknownGÇöthere's no way the ship gets to the planet without the specific intention of putting it there. And that given that he'd have to at least strongly suspect he was sick with Kyonoke, that means he was knowingly and intentionally putting the civilian population at risk.
You don't have to know someone's motive for setting up a ticking bomb to know that you don't set one up without the intention of setting up a ticking bomb. |
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