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triman247
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Posted - 2007.05.11 03:20:00 -
[1]
This is mostly hypothetical but I think it will help people like me who are thinking of which carrier to get into (not now, a year... a year and a half... three years... whatever from now) and which one to use. I am asking for an honest comparison between the Thanatos and the Chimera although any carrier can be brought into this, I would like to talk about these 2 mainly.
First, lets talk about bonuses:
For the sake of discussion, if I had carrier to level 5 (or 4 for that matter) and for the Chimera, lets say that I have All of the shield compensation skills to level 4 or 5. Will this along with T2 PASSIVE shield tank mods, could I technically out tank active hardeners? Or will it just not matter either way, and active hardeners would trump in any situation except for maybe one where you have 0 cap, which is unlikely with high skills in cap recharge/cap capacity/ plus T2 mods to increase recharge and what not.
I ask what the benefits to this would be and what the downfalls of this would be. Of course, for the sake of conversation, we are also saying that all shield tank skills (max shield, recharge rate...) are to level 5. Would it somehow be beneficial to use a passive tank? With the knowledge that I have of shield tanking and stacking or whatever, could this technically make your tank passively up to high 80's or even 90's in most if not all 5 choices? Again, with the same idea, 80's or 90's with active tank. Now of course, please say which would be most useful.
Now for the Thanatos Bonus:
Again, lets say that we have carrier 4 or 5, I have a few questions: 1) does this 5% damage bonus ONLY apply to the use of fighters, or does it apply to all types of drones? If it applies to all types, would this be beneficial and therefore more useful for standard carrier actions.
2) If not, how many skill points and what skills would be needed to make it very useful to fly any other type of drone than a fighter (T2 of course with Drone interfacing level 5.)
Now to compare and contrast the two carriers.
If you are being pummeled on by a large fleet in a chimera, even with large resists, and a great cap recharge rate, would it matter? If you can use dual shield reppers or whatever constantly is there a reason why it would even be necessary to have an extra bit of tank on your ship, or will you die anyway?
Now in a similar circumstance, in a Thanatos, would the bonus for the use of fighters (other drones also) would it matter with the extra 20-25% damage?
What I am really asking is weather the bonuses for the chimera outweigh the bonuses given by the Thanatos, and vice-versa? Of course people can come at me with "oh, in this situation..." and "that situation..." I am just trying to find a common link and benefit in many different situations and ultimately decide which of the two would be most beneficial in most if not all combat situations.
As I said, this post is to be a discussion, not an arguement. I would like people to post intelegently about what they have seen from other posts or what they have seen from in game situations.
I also stated that I am interested in all of the 4 carriers, and if someone has something to say about either the Archon or the Nidhougger.
This is not a comparison between motherships. as many people can or will be able to afford a carrier, but may never get the chance to fly a mothership. Plus they are very different in size, tank... Leave that for another post.
Thank you for reading this post, and any information or ideas are greatly appreciated.
Triman247
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Kokoshu
Caldari Militaris
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Posted - 2007.05.11 03:25:00 -
[2]
youll never get a chim to sustain a tank permanantly, it is possible by sacrifing loads of modules but your overall effectivness reduces. But remember your role is to keep your gang alive not for you to kill everything. If you cant trust in your gang to keep you alive you shouldnt fly with them.
Thantos has a way better tank in my opinion and the extra damage is nice but im learning to train the chim dunno why lol
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Jei'son Bladesmith
Bladesmith Mining and Development Consortium
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Posted - 2007.05.11 04:11:00 -
[3]
I wanna Archon cuz it looks cool. With a price tag that high and a train time that long, I ain't flyin it if it don't got STYLE.
☼☼☼ Don't even THINK about it rookie...I have all my capacitor and more hit points than you can POSSIBLY imagine. ☼☼☼
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Shardrael
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.05.11 05:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kokoshu youll never get a chim to sustain a tank permanantly, it is possible by sacrifing loads of modules but your overall effectivness reduces. But remember your role is to keep your gang alive not for you to kill everything. If you cant trust in your gang to keep you alive you shouldnt fly with them.
Thantos has a way better tank in my opinion and the extra damage is nice but im learning to train the chim dunno why lol
fill the lows with faction cpr's put 1 capital shield booster with two dread gurista shield boost amps, and put as many cap rigs in bottom as needed, fill rest of mids with hardeners, voila you have a capital shield boosting chimera that boosts just above the stock boost amount of a capital shield booster indefinetly..... which is to say damn nicely. infact with resist bonuses and good hardeners you might still tank better then a thanatos which would make the chimera the second best sustainable tank of the carriers, although that last line is speculation as I dont know its comparisson to a thantos in pure numbers
Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2007.05.11 07:13:00 -
[5]
He said not possible without using a lot of slots that might could easily be used for something else... It's nice to know and certainly nice - but sometimes it's just a usable carrier to help your gang. - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing... |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill
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Posted - 2007.05.11 07:27:00 -
[6]
Passive shield hardeners are onlyt useful when you *really* need the cap or *really* need the CPU reduced fittings. They can not be made better or even close than active hardeners unless using silly expensive faction gear. On a carrier with plenty cap and plenty CPU, active >> passive.
Originally by: welsh wizard You might not be able to kill anything but you can sure as hell ignore it and go about your business
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Eskona Runningstar
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.05.11 08:44:00 -
[7]
The Chimera has 1 huge drawback: CPU needed for Shield Boosters and Shield Transports.
Using only tech-1 named and tech-2 equipment and not willing to sacrifice a slot for a Co-Processor while also wanting to fit a Capital Shield Transport, you will run out of CPU and will have to resort to tech-1 or passive hardeners - so you are "eating up" the resist bonus you get from the Carrier skill in part by being not able to fit the best tank because of fitting restrictions. The other option (fitting a Co-Processor) leaves you with less cap regen, barely able to support your shield booster.
The problem: 2x Capital Armor Repairer + 1x Capital Remote Armor Repairer = 190 CPU used. 1x Capital Shield Booster + 1x Capital Shield Transport = 475 CPU used. The Chimera starts out with about 50 more CPU compared to a Thanatos.
Chimera: Playing around in Quickfit, a Chimera can get up to a sustainable 2550 DPS tank on weakest resist using only tech-2 equipment and Co-Processor, or 2200 DPS sustainable without Co-Processor (but spare cap to run a couple high-slot modules). A Chimera gets a bonus to Capital Shield Transport and Capital Energy Transfer modules, so it has a hard time supporting armor tankers when on frontline duty.
Thanatos: A Thanatos can get around 2450 DPS tanked on weakest resist using only tech-2 equipment, with plenty of capacitor regen left for high-slot modules. No fitting problems at all, you come out with more than 100 CPU left (while fitting 2x cap repper, 1x cap remote repper, 1x cap shield transport). A Thanatos gets a bonus to Capital Remote Armor Repairer and Capital Shield Transport modules, so on frontline duty it can support any ship in the gang.
Archon: An Archon can get around 3200 DPS tanked on weakest resist using only tech-2 equipment. No fitting problems, just like the Thanatos. The tanking setups for Archon and Thanatos tends to be the same - however, compared to a Thanatos an Archon will have a tad better cap regen as a Cap Recharger II (+20% cap regen) can be replaced with a CPR II (+26% cap regen) because of 1 more low slot, but 1 less mid slot. An Archon gets a bonus to Capital Remote Armor Repairer and Capital Energy Transfer modules, so it is less suited for supporting shield tanking gang members (and cannot boost POS shields).
This all changes with faction equipment, of course - if you fit a couple Dread Guristas Invulnerability Fields on a Chimera you will have a lot of spare CPU to play with, and its tank will outclass a faction-fitted Thanatos tank.
If you dont want to invest in faction and officer equipment, a Thanatos is better than a Chimera in my opinion - the tank is just about as good, you have the flexibility of running remote reppers and shield transports, and you get a bonus to your damage output.
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PoPa
Gallente The Renegade Order Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.11 10:04:00 -
[8]
If you wanna want to compare tank abilities for Archon vs. Thanatos.. it's odd you chose to mention cap recharge as the one feature that stands out...
How about the Archon's 5% extra resistance pr. skill level? How's that for tank. --------------------------------------- - Signed, PoPa!
- = Join The Renegade Order Now! = - |
Eskona Runningstar
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.05.11 11:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Eskona Runningstar on 11/05/2007 11:27:27
Originally by: PoPa If you wanna want to compare tank abilities for Archon vs. Thanatos.. it's odd you chose to mention cap recharge as the one feature that stands out...
How about the Archon's 5% extra resistance pr. skill level? How's that for tank.
3200 DPS tanked versus 2450 DPS tanked took care of that, as did the statement that the module setups for the tanks tend to be identical.
I assumed racial carrier skill at level 4 for the carriers, btw.
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Azuse
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:30:00 -
[10]
Dammage bonus, thanatos' just dont tank well at all, even with fighter bonuses it wont break an archon.
A well fitted archon can put its resists between 94 and 99%. Assuming the thanatos had carrier v its a 25% bonus to fighter dammage, if it was hitting the weakest resist that's 25% on 6% i.e 7.5%
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Azuse
A well fitted archon can put its resists between 94 and 99%.
No, it can't.
Show me the fittings if you insist on this ridiculous claim. ;-)
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SasRipper
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2007.05.11 13:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Azuse A well fitted archon can put its resists between 94 and 99%.
STFU! wts clue
*snip* Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked. |
Chaimera
Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks
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Posted - 2007.05.11 13:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Azuse A well fitted archon can put its resists between 94 and 99%.
Close, but not quite that uber.
The best POSSIBLE setup with the following skills at level 5:
Amarr Carrier EM Armor Compensation Explosive Armor Compensation Kinetic Armor Compensation Thermic Armor Compensation
and using the following Equipment:
1x Core X-type Explosive Hardener 1x Core X-type Kinetic Hardener 1x Core X-type Thermic Hardener 2x Chelm's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
2x Capital Armor Repairers
NOTE: That is 5 of your 7 low slots dedicated to raising your armor resistance with 2 of those modules costing you 3.5-4.5 bil EACH.
You can get your resistances between 90-92%.
Beware of the killer grumpies! |
Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.11 13:41:00 -
[14]
How about the shield vs armour boost bonuses?
Chimera (note that this char was created long before carriers existed so I should get one for free btw) is a shield tanker, ie runs out of cpu and uses more cap, but can shield boost poses. Nidhoggur on the other hand is armour tanked, ie has slots for domination warp jammer dont run out of cpu etc, and has also shield boost bonus. The others can of course remote boost their gang mates with armour but cant tank up poses witch is a major bummer.
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HairyGary
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Posted - 2007.05.11 14:46:00 -
[15]
I've been battling with this, too. I'm sort of inclined to go for a Thanatos, for the simple reason that if I can ever get a Mom, the Nyx is, bar none, the coolest looking ship in the game (imo).
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Kokoshu
Caldari Militaris
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Posted - 2007.05.11 15:43:00 -
[16]
can some who knows please post the chimeria sustainable tank with dread bits and pieces please as its what im going for and i must be doing something horribly wrong lol on quickfit
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Dragon Lord
Caldari research inc
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:11:00 -
[17]
its far from impossible to perma run a cap shield booster on a chimera
put 4 cap flux coil 2's in the lows and 2 ccc t2 plus a ccc t1 and you get a peak recharge of 235cap/s with good skills. And with good cap shield booster skills, it only uses 198cap/s.
hence a chimera can perma tank with a cap shield booster and still have 6 mids and all its highs to play with.
Passive tanking a chimera is a very big no no, reason no cap means no cyno which makes you a sitting duck
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Azuse
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chaimera
Originally by: Azuse A well fitted archon can put its resists between 94 and 99%.
Close, but not quite that uber.
The best POSSIBLE setup with the following skills at level 5:
Amarr Carrier EM Armor Compensation Explosive Armor Compensation Kinetic Armor Compensation Thermic Armor Compensation
and using the following Equipment:
1x Core X-type Explosive Hardener 1x Core X-type Kinetic Hardener 1x Core X-type Thermic Hardener 2x Chelm's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
2x Capital Armor Repairers
NOTE: That is 5 of your 7 low slots dedicated to raising your armor resistance with 2 of those modules costing you 3.5-4.5 bil EACH.
You can get your resistances between 90-92%.
Single rep + cheml hardeners + tII rigs + maxed resist skills, it certainly isnt cheap and its needs officer cap rechargers, but dam.
And no it's not me
The guy i know who flys this hasnt got it insured either, his words "If you can kill me i don't deserve the money"
Anyone who can cyno into a gate, tank 20 tii fitted bs, loose connection mid fight and survive, well, isk well spent imo.
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Azuse
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:21:00 -
[19]
Incidently if you want to make it sicker still have an alt or gang mate running along in a fleet command with gang mods running
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Dragon Lord
Caldari research inc
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 11/05/2007 16:31:55 Infact The Wyvern has the sickest tank of all when faction fitted u can perma tank over 10000dps, but thats with best mods but then if ur flying a mothership worth 30b you should be fitting best named faction gear anyway
Infact almost 11000dps perma tanking, thats one hell of a tank to break and it would need 8 nos on it before it started to struggle running the booster
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Azuse
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:40:00 -
[21]
Well shield tanks are ment to be ubber
But is that going buy modules alone? Or are you counting implants and officer hardwires as well?
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Dragon Lord
Caldari research inc
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Posted - 2007.05.11 16:45:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 11/05/2007 16:44:32 no implants or hardware just rigs and modules, dont think Crystal sets affect cap shield boosters anyway
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Valandril
Caldari Reiketsu. Hitchhiker's Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.11 17:30:00 -
[23]
Blody hell dragon posting in pvp topic, what is happening to the world :P ---
Cheap paint ftw |
General Apocalypse
Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.11 18:32:00 -
[24]
The Archon is the best carrier atm since it can take stupid amount of dmg , permatank (usefull when siegeing poses) , and still have decent dps.
Thank You SkyFlyer |
Bentula
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Posted - 2007.05.12 13:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: General Apocalypse The Archon is the best carrier atm since it can take stupid amount of dmg , permatank (usefull when siegeing poses) , and still have decent dps.
And thats why im training for one .
Seriously i didnt even consider the thanatos, im not going to trade 25% damage for like 40% of a tank. Btw a archon with a dedicated t2 tank can tank far over 4k dps on its weakest resist, not sure where the 3200 number comes from. Unless im missing something you dont need to fit cap relays on it at all for a dual rep tank, just use cap rigs and the meds.
Setup isnt rocket science either, 2 capital reps, one of each hardener apart from em, 2 EANMs. Worst resistance will be around 82%, with depending on rigs and medslots more or less sustainable tank.
Also the argument that you dont need to tank in a carrier is not true, while you dont have to tank in small skirmishes in large capital fights you might very well come under fire. Any bets on whats getting called primary first if there is a even composition of carriers? My bet is on thanatos or nidhoggurs but not my shiny amarrian toy .
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Eskona Runningstar
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.05.12 13:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bentula (...) Btw a archon with a dedicated t2 tank can tank far over 4k dps on its weakest resist, not sure where the 3200 number comes from. Unless im missing something you dont need to fit cap relays on it at all for a dual rep tank, just use cap rigs and the meds. (...)
You can use 4 Cap Recharger II and use 2x CAR, Exp/Kin/Therm hardener, 2x EANM II as tank, but in that case you wont have a sensor booster and have a very hard time locking anything. If you do want a sensor booster and 2 EANM II, you will have a max cap regen of 211 and a cap use of 206 (without running the smartbomb), making you very vulnerable to NOS. Also, you wont be able to perma-run the Remote Repairer as that alone needs 225 cap/s.
The fitting I used to get the 3200 DPS number:
1x Capital Remote Armor Repair System I 1x Large Plasma Smartbomb II 1x Improved Cloaking Device II 2x Drone Control Unit I
3x Cap Recharger II 1x F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines
2x Capital Armor Repairer I 1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1x Armor Explosive Hardener II 1x Armor Kinetic Hardener II 1x Armor Thermic Hardener II 1x Capacitor Power Relay II
2x Capacitor Control Circuit II 1x Capacitor Control Circuit I
The (relevant) skills I assumed: All Armor Compensation at IV Amarr Carrier IV Energy Management V Energy Systems Operation V Capital Repair Systems IV Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems IV
Result: 278 cap/s peak regen 206 cap/s needed to run tank + sensor booster 75.68% weakest resist, 800 armor hp/s repaired => 3289 DPS tanked on weakest resist
Of course, with compensation skills at V and Amarr Carrier V the tank is even better, but on the other hand training Amarr Carrier V takes some time and I tried to base my numbers on average skills, not on maxed-out skills.
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hilaw
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Posted - 2007.05.12 18:40:00 -
[27]
The chimera can't afford to use its med slots for a pair of sensor boosters, while tanking to its full potential, which are almost mandatory; its something else to take into account
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triman247
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Posted - 2007.05.13 00:28:00 -
[28]
Just a question, why would you need to train the armor compensation skills at all if you are using active tank? They only do something to active when your hardeners are off, and from what I've heard, if their off, your screwed anyway.
triman
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Boci
The Legion. Requiem-Aeternam
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Posted - 2007.05.13 00:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: triman247 Just a question, why would you need to train the armor compensation skills at all if you are using active tank? They only do something to active when your hardeners are off, and from what I've heard, if their off, your screwed anyway.
triman
The compensations increase the resistances given by the EANM.
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Ariel Dawn
SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.13 03:36:00 -
[30]
Fun Fact: A completely Tech 1 fitted Archon tanks over 10% better than a completely top-officer fitted Nidhoggur.
Best carrier hands down you want is the Archon; the Chimera can fit a similar-sized tank but requires officer PDUs in order to run forever whilst the Archon can do so using easily available and inexpensive gear.
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