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Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
594
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Posted - 2017.05.09 21:21:09 -
[61] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors. The treachery of the Minmatar - again - says otherwise, as here we are with the CEWPA. If you value your 'Republic' you should consider the words of Lord Admiral Lok'ri, he is wise and generous. Your people are in an untenable position and the usurper regime must be replaced before any serious diplomacy takes place.
Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3497
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Posted - 2017.05.09 21:25:22 -
[62] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote: The treachery of the Minmatar
Ah yes, treachery. The go-to accusation of the aggrieved oppressor.
Quote: Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Quite the little threat to toss in when attempting to refute a demonstration of just who the untrustworthy savages in this relationship are, don't you think? |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1639
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Posted - 2017.05.09 21:27:26 -
[63] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote:Arrendis wrote:Clearly, we're not the ones with a congenital difficulty in seeking peaceful coexistence with our neighbors. The treachery of the Minmatar - again - says otherwise, as here we are with the CEWPA. If you value your 'Republic' you should consider the words of Lord Admiral Lok'ri, he is wise and generous. Your people are in an untenable position and the usurper regime must be replaced before any serious diplomacy takes place. Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
998
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Posted - 2017.05.09 21:50:23 -
[64] - Quote
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
Gaven,
This isn't about you. I know you think you know all the answers when it comes to us, but you...especially you, don't get to come here and offer an opinion on what we should or shouldn't do.
Hey now, be careful. That's a fragile ego you're handling there.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2158
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Posted - 2017.05.10 05:14:57 -
[65] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote: Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then.
It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread.
And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
Be careful what you people wish for.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
873
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Posted - 2017.05.10 12:00:05 -
[66] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote: Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Spirits below I knew I liked you. I can't wait for the day when you realize the price something like that would cost, and see your face then. It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread. And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world. Be careful what you people wish for.
But then they would be weakened enough to be picked off by the Drifters and the Gallente & Caldari. At the very least they would be eternally crying over the husk of their homeworld, which would be nice.
I mean, if we're throwing around idle threats. |
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
245
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Posted - 2017.05.10 12:24:05 -
[67] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote: I mean, if we're throwing around idle threats.
It would be perfectly reasonable to rename this forum "The idle threat place". Actually... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3512
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Posted - 2017.05.10 13:26:22 -
[68] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote: It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread.
And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
You're clearly missing Miz's framework. Mitara's threat said nothing about retaliatory glassing. And it's not like the Amarr haven't demonstrated a proven history of 'you killed one person, we'll kill an entire planet'.
So if they start eradicating civilian populations, how do you think the rest of the cluster reacts? Do you think the Federation doesn't go to war? That puts the State in a very tricky position.
Without the RepublicGÇöand let's face it, if the Amarr are glassing the Pator system, we've already lost as a coherent political entityGÇöthe State and Empire have the firepower to roll the Federation. Let's face it, the lion's share of the formerly Federal worlds and resources go to the Amarr, because they're bigger and stronger than the State. Especially since I'm sure the Amarr will 'need time' to reorient the bulk of their military. The fighting along the Federal front will see the State taking the brunt of the losses.
End Result: the Empire winds up much bigger and stronger than the State, sitting high on their 'The Reclaiming Has Begun AnewGäó' horse, and there is nobody to provide the State with a balance of power like the one we have now.
And of course, it is their divinely-appointed duty. With no Jove, and no Federation, to stop them this time.
That's how the scenario might play out if the State blindly supports the Empire while the Empire is gleefully murdering civilian populations. It might not. But if you're the State... can you risk it? What if you come in against the Empire? What if you don't join war at all?
Well, then the Empire's on the losing end of the math. Even if it's just the Federation, mind you, because the State is more powerful, militarily, than the Republic, and the two sides are relatively balanced right now. 4+3 = 5+2, you know? So if the Republic's the smallest, the Federation's gotta be the biggest, or this whole 'balance of power' thing was a complete boondoggle from the beginning for the Empire (which, as we know, it wasn't). And the Feds will still have the support of whatever surviving Matari forces remain, too.
If the State sits this thing out, then the Federation will win. And be ginormous. That's no good, they're back in the position of 'those guys with a history of attempting to force people to do things their way are unstoppable'.
So the State needs to be accumulating power here, too. And the easiest way to do that is to start taking Amarr territories for themselves. Back-channel politics maybe spin it as 'saving' those systems, even as they let the Federal forces take the larger share of the losses in the campaigns. To the Feds, they can point out that Caldari controlGÇöas, after all, the people with the long relationships with the local HoldersGÇölikely means less civil unrest. There's a chance, at least, of maintaining the balance of power.
Do they do that? Is that how the math shakes out? If you're the Empire, do you want to risk it? Regardless of your answer, I promise, Her Imperial Catieness isn't that dumb.
So... no. The Amarr Empire can't afford to start glassing planets and just 'write off' a few hundred billion of their own people. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7549
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Posted - 2017.05.10 15:13:56 -
[69] - Quote
As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis, you should remember that the State traditionally invades other peoples space under very specific circumstances - and neither Athra nor Pator contain the Caldari homeworld.
I would, personally, not participate in an Empire attack on the Republic, unless said war were in the best interests of the State. As others have said, it really isn't in the best interests of the State for EITHER of the expansionist powers to get stronger. In order to maintain our independence, we have to maintain a military strong enough to fight off any invader.
I think this is elementary statecraft. I can't believe the CEP doesn't see this, themselves. Whilst the State would certainly aid the Empire against an invasion by the Republic, I don't see us getting involved in an Imperial attack on the Republic. If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
881
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 15:30:49 -
[70] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:As much as I don't want to get involved in the disputes between the Empire and the Republic on an unpaid basis[quote] ... you are going to do it anyway.
[quote]I think this is elementary statecraft. Yes, and I agree that this is reason.
If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3516
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Posted - 2017.05.10 15:58:36 -
[71] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If anything, it's in the interests of the State for the Republic to get a bit stronger - in trade and military strength.
What would really be in the best interests of the State and the Republic, Pieter, is for the State to help the Republic get strong enough that the two of them can together offset either of the larger, expansionist powers.
For all the Gallente were helpful to us in the Rebellion, they're just as guilty as the Amarr of attempting to infect our culture with theirsGÇöalbeit in a less oppressive, less egregious (but simultaneously, far more insidious) way. That's why, despite all of the 'Usurper' rhetoric being bandied about, we chose this. We, the common citizens of the time, were glad to see the Gallente-style parliament replaced with the Tribal Council.
And if the common citizens wanted to change things up now, they'd pressure their Chiefs to make those changes. So the 'usurpers', right now, have a lot more legitimacy in the eyes of the governedGÇöthe only place it mattersGÇöthan the capsuleers who like to throw shade on them for not being a foreign organ, grafted onto our people.
The parliament fomented nothing but bickering while nothing got done.
I leave it to you to draw any parallels you may. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3516
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Posted - 2017.05.10 16:03:39 -
[72] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
We kind of already do, what with the alliance with the Federation. |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
452
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Posted - 2017.05.10 16:46:51 -
[73] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:If you were us, however, would you bet your very existence on international politics following reason?
We kind of already do, what with the alliance with the Federation.
You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders Electus Matari
882
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:06:41 -
[74] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy! I'll take it if she doesn't want to.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
914
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:07:36 -
[75] - Quote
All this goes under the assumption that the State would act because they wish to prevent a larger, more powerful Federation. They seem quite comfortable now under a larger, more powerful Federation so what for them would change but the amount of sabotage and preparation? I am not Caldari but I would think that they would simply build themselves up as more of a deterrent. Because this is what they have always done in face of a larger, more powerful Federation.
Or perhaps they would expand north and take the time to focus on the Guristas. Or secure Black Rise finally. ...I just do not think they would intervene in a war between others unless paid to do so. I see them profiting from all involved sides.
Trying to think like a Caldari depresses me though, so I will stop.
As strength goes.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2163
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:09:35 -
[76] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Valerie Valate wrote: It would cost 3 or 4 of the Throne Worlds, as I've mentioned in a different thread. And thing is, the Amarr could afford that price, trading 3-4 worlds for one Minmatar world.
You're clearly missing Miz's framework. Mitara's threat said nothing about retaliatory glassing. And it's not like the Amarr haven't demonstrated a proven history of 'you killed one person, we'll kill an entire planet'.
Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
And the Empire did not retaliate in kind, but instead used conventional military force to rout the attackers. E.g. when the Covenant attacked Mabnem, the Empire did not glass all the planets controlled by the Covenant in the Bleak Lands, instead using overwhelming force to eradicate the Covenant presence.
On that basis, were the Empire to begin glassing planets, then, something very, very, very bad has happened. And that's where my maths come from. If Pator has been attacked, then I expect more than one of the Throne Worlds to have similarly been attacked.
But the Empire can survive losing a Throne World.
Can the Minmatar survive losing Matar ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
914
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:12:47 -
[77] - Quote
Losing Matar would make a Martyr.
It would cement their identity which is now suffering from peace and easy living.
As strength goes.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
2439
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:32:07 -
[78] - Quote
Mitara Newelle wrote: Typical bellicose slaver chest beating and then this gem... ...Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Do the words "mutually assured destruction" mean anything to you, slaver?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
253
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:36:44 -
[79] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Mitara Newelle wrote: Typical bellicose slaver chest beating and then this gem... ...Of course, if the diplomats fail, seeing Imperial starships fly in Pator over nothing but glass planets is just as acceptable.
Do the words "mutually assured destruction" mean anything to you, slaver? I have a thread for this |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3519
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Posted - 2017.05.10 17:40:05 -
[80] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote: You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
Your money? Sure. Your dangerous ideas about cultural amalgamation and mob rule? Mmmmm.... let's just keep it at 'money', ok? |
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
2441
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:02:40 -
[81] - Quote
Pilot Ember I wasn't making an idle threat but stating a fact. MAD is what has kept the peace (mostly) between our nations for the last hundred or so years.
While the imperials would ultimately triumph in a direct conflict against the Republic (assuming the Federation didn't intervene on our behalf) the ensuing victory would be the very definition of Pyrrhic. The "win" would be so costly in terms of loss of lives and materiel that what was left of the empire would be vulnerable to attack from the remaining state actors or extra-state actors such as the Covenant, Nation, Cartel, EoM, etc. Also, unless they wiped out every last Minmatar, including those billions who live in the Federation, they would be facing an eternal guerilla war fought by the surviving Matari.
But hey, why let little details like that interfere with common sense? If you imperials are so sure of yourselves then by all means mount up your war armada and fly the 22 jumps between Amarr and Matar and do your damnedest. Just either do it or shut the hell up about it. I too am sick of the idle threats.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1126
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:06:18 -
[82] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote: You'll take our relief money and you'll like it, missy!
Your money? Sure. Your dangerous ideas about cultural amalgamation and mob rule? Mmmmm.... let's just keep it at 'money', ok?
And this is the problem with the Fed's current policy.
"Yeah we'll take your free **** that you had to tax your citizens to get, but become a part of the civic polity and contribute something in return? Nah."
People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
2441
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:12:30 -
[83] - Quote
Not all of us are anti-Federation Pilot Galente. I'm a bit biased having been raised and educated on Luminaire but a great many of us Matari are thankful for all that your people have done and continue to do for us. Having said that, our complicated relationship is something that we struggle with and there is hardly a consensus as to what should be the way forward.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7553
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:14:57 -
[84] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Not all of us are anti-Federation Pilot Galente. I'm a bit biased having been raised and educated on Luminaire but a great many of us Matari are thankful for all that your people have done and continue to do for us. Having said that, our complicated relationship is something that we struggle with and there is hardly a consensus as to what should be the way forward.
I think there's definitely a consensus, currently, that gratitude is an ill-fitting garment that chafes if worn for too long. There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots.
I, mean, we all have tribal roots - just that traditions stemming from that social model are still very relevant in Matari culture and society.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
916
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Posted - 2017.05.10 18:22:33 -
[85] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots. It happened three years ago.
As strength goes.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3523
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Posted - 2017.05.10 19:57:47 -
[86] - Quote
Jason Galente wrote: People will only put up with that for so long in a democracy.. just saying.
Yeah, about as long as the Fed needs us to offset the combined strength of the Empire and State.
Like I said: 4+3 = 5+2. Lose that 2, though... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7558
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Posted - 2017.05.10 20:00:10 -
[87] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:There also seems to be a strong-desire to abandon democratic republicanism in favour of a model of government that fits more comfortably with the Matari's tribal roots. It happened three years ago.
I believe it's still current, isn't it? I've not heard of a 'back to the Republic' backlash, anyway...
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3523
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Posted - 2017.05.10 20:15:32 -
[88] - Quote
Ioannis Sepphiros wrote: Regarding point (A) I believe you are far from the mark of what I stated. I will encourage you to give some reading on what I said. I will simply assume that there has been some mixup due to how things may seem by text and will say that if anything gave you that impression, its a wrong one.
That's fair, and I accept your apology for your failure to communicate more clearly.
Quote: Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'?
Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'.
And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7558
|
Posted - 2017.05.10 20:33:32 -
[89] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ioannis Sepphiros wrote: Regarding point (B) I will simply elaborate that no decision belongs to anyone but only to everyone following the laws of the Republic and the power that is granted by those laws. And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we all are to a degree affected by those laws or may place pressure on those laws.
I'm sorry, but are you actually saying that residents of the Federation should be able to influence the laws of the Republic based on some principle of 'because we can'? Because that's how "And us are part of the decisionmaking one way or another as well, since we [. . .] may place pressure on those laws." reads. 'We may place pressure so we get to be part of the decision-making process." Pressure, after all, means either a carrot or a stick. That's how pressure works. Either 'If we do what you want, we get something.' or 'If we don't do what you want, you do something we won't like'. And I have to say, that's pretty much tantamount to 'do what we say or else'. Is that really the statement you want to be making with no more justification than 'because we can do it'?
I mean, I'd say "I told you so" but....
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3523
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Posted - 2017.05.10 20:59:32 -
[90] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote: Well. Here's the thing. The Empire has been attacked on more than one occasion, by various parties, using weaponry that is in the same league as "glassing", by which I mean bioweaponry used on civilian populations.
Bioweaponry used on a civilian population is a terrible thing.
It is not, however, equivalent to an orbital bombardment of the entire planet that does not stop until the entire temperate world is a molten heap that will never again support any life in any significant amount.
So, let's not equate 'you attacked a city' with 'Starkman Prime / Arzad II doesn't even support microbial life a millennium later', ok?
I mean, you can spout 'I don't think X would happen unless Y', but I've got a decidedly non-theoretical counterexample of 1 man being murdered, so the Amarr eradicated all life on anentire planet. Last time I checked, I don't think any of the household pets on that planet were co-conspirators, but they all died, too! |
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