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Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 14:14:54 -
[1] - Quote
Got this idea stuck in my head after reading a bunch of forums on caldari-minmataer factions ship. Make it a thukkar "pirate" faction with the following bonus's. It doesnt seem balanced but the best way for me to shake the idea is by seeing proven (or lack there of).
Minmaater bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to projectile damage Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 15% bonus to sheild booster amount Role Bonus: 50% bonus to ECM range 50% bonus to salvage rate |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3362
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 14:01:08 -
[2] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Got this idea stuck in my head after reading a bunch of forums on caldari-minmataer factions ship. Make it a thukkar "pirate" faction with the following bonus's. It doesnt seem balanced but the best way for me to shake the idea is by seeing proven (or lack there of).
Minmaater bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to projectile damage Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 15% bonus to sheild booster amount Role Bonus: 50% bonus to ECM range 50% bonus to salvage rate
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon? |
Rhaegon Aesir
Static-Shock
23
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 14:13:21 -
[3] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Got this idea stuck in my head after reading a bunch of forums on caldari-minmataer factions ship. Make it a thukkar "pirate" faction with the following bonus's. It doesnt seem balanced but the best way for me to shake the idea is by seeing proven (or lack there of).
Minmaater bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to projectile damage Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 15% bonus to sheild booster amount Role Bonus: 50% bonus to ECM range 50% bonus to salvage rate Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
422
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 06:21:50 -
[4] - Quote
This doesn't work at all. ECM without a strength bonus is worthless, shield boosting competes with ECM for precious mid slots, and trying to use guns effectively is hard when you need to put ECM buffs in your low slots instead of more damage. |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 16:41:22 -
[5] - Quote
Well, I would agree with the sentiment that without an ECM strength bonus, ECM is worthless.
That said, choosing between fitting ECM strength and DPS is the same trade-off that any EWAR bonused ship faces. Trading ECM for tank is again a fitting choice that ECM boats must face.
Take a look at the rook.
It's obviously shield tanked, what with it having a whopping 3 low slots, and the mid slots must be split between ECM, utility, and tank.
I'd LOVE to see the Rook get an extra low slot, but I confess I've never actually flown one; the sacrifices just seem too significant compared to more useful (and reliable) boats like a Curse, Huginn, or Lachesis. Which, incidentally, can fit an armor tank and actually leverage their ewar bonus to great effect.
Instead of a new ship, why not just buff the Rook a bit? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3984
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 20:43:12 -
[6] - Quote
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook?
you're an idiot
as for the idea
no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz"
BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
|
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 06:23:38 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? you're an idiot as for the idea no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz"
I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant...
to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist.
but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense.
Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3367
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:09:33 -
[8] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? you're an idiot as for the idea no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz" I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant... My point is ships are being added to EVE when all there doing is displace other ships from there "Niche". CCP seems to be more focused on content then balance... to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist. but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense. Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank.
The reason why ship need a niche is so we don't get completely useless ship that have no point to existing or ship made obsolete because the new ship is just trampling over other hull's niche. A big part of why the AF are dead right now is the T3D being flat out better at anything an AF used to be used for.
Your proposition is essentially a mash up of some racial bonus from 2 side that have no direction. It's only possible use would be lolbait and even that... |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 18:47:41 -
[9] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz" Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank. The balance issue with pirate factions is that Gallente is involved in 5, while Amarr, Minmatar and Caldari only in 3. Also, we have no Caldari-Minmatar combo, so the pirate faction "balance" is out of question. For the niche, a railgun sniper with target painters could be an option, as target painters don't get too much bonus - not even the Loki had bonus for them, and probably won't have after the redesign either. Or, as Thukkers are nomads with no base, they could be a logi faction, since they have to repair everything on the move. Bonus for ECM and remote shield boost from Caldari, remote armor rep and speed boost from Minmatar. Can have either armor or shield tank.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
|
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 10:06:46 -
[10] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Tiberius NoVegas wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Higher DPS lower ECM strength obvious bait falcon?
So a rook? you're an idiot as for the idea no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz" I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant... My point is ships are being added to EVE when all there doing is displace other ships from there "Niche". CCP seems to be more focused on content then balance... to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist. but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense. Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank. The reason why ship need a niche is so we don't get completely useless ship that have no point to existing or ship made obsolete because the new ship is just trampling over other hull's niche. A big part of why the AF are dead right now is the T3D being flat out better at anything an AF used to be used for. Your proposition is essentially a mash up of some racial bonus from 2 side that have no direction. It's only possible use would be lolbait and even that...
I get what your saying but let me explain a different way. The Typhoon, what niche does it fill? its a BS with a bonus to missiles and projectiles. but the Minmatar already have a projectile BS that gets better bonuses, and the Raven can out do the Typhoon with missiles all day. The only thing that makes the Typhoon different from the two mentions ships is the Typhoon is armour tanked compared to shield. Now note that when it comes to BS's the Gallante and Amarr have ships that can out do the Typhoon in armour tanking. So the Typhoon doesn't necessarily fit a niche that already isn't filled. Yet its still used. If the point of making a ship is to fill a niche then CCP would have to rework all the ships from the ground up and make them significantly different from each other to fill those roles. this raises the question of what niche do the new CONCORD ships fill? I see a large demand for a cargo ship between transports and freighters but this "niche" has been and left for years? a Niche is obviously not the driving force for CCP to introduce new ships. enlighten me and tell me what would you recommend as a niche that needs to be filled? |
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 16:38:58 -
[11] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:I get what your saying but let me explain a different way. The Typhoon, what niche does it fill? its a BS with a bonus to missiles and projectiles. but the Minmatar already have a projectile BS that gets better bonuses, and the Raven can out do the Typhoon with missiles all day. The only thing that makes the Typhoon different from the two mentions ships is the Typhoon is armour tanked compared to shield. Now note that when it comes to BS's the Gallante and Amarr have ships that can out do the Typhoon in armour tanking. So the Typhoon doesn't necessarily fit a niche that already isn't filled. Yet its still used. If the point of making a ship is to fill a niche then CCP would have to rework all the ships from the ground up and make them significantly different from each other to fill those roles. this raises the question of what niche do the new CONCORD ships fill? I see a large demand for a cargo ship between transports and freighters but this "niche" has been and left for years? a Niche is obviously not the driving force for CCP to introduce new ships. enlighten me and tell me what would you recommend as a niche that needs to be filled? Personally I think the factions and ships are messed up, especially as we go up in size. T1 frigates seem to be the most balanced: each faction has a tackler, an e-war, a logi, an explorer and 2 damage dealers for the 2 weapon types of the faction, one of them has a tank bonus too. Except this isn't true, because Amarr only gets energy weapon bonuses and no secondary weapon bonus, so even the frigates that supposed to be kind of the same for each faction aren't balanced as well as they could. Even the corvettes that are supposed to be exactly the same aren't: they should have bonuses for the 2 weapons of the faction, the e-war of the faction and the defense of the faction, yet Amarr (and this time Minmatar too) fails to do it's job.
...
OCD in cooldown mode.
What is the niche of the attack battlecruisers? If having large weapons on a medium ship is a niche, then why shouldn't we have destroyers with medium weapons, and battleships with capital weapons? That would be a niche too.
Speaking of Minmatar: wouldn't the game be more balanced if Minmatar ships would be optimized for shield tanking with a shield booster preference than the current half-armor half shield mess? People keep saying that specialization is better than being a jack of all trades. If Minmatar as a faction isn't specialized for any kind of defense (active shield tank in this case should be the niche of the whole faction) shouldn't it have the worst tank in the whole game? To be honest, it's quite hard to follow the rules of the game if the devs keep ignoring them regularly.
People keep worrying about "niche role" and "balance" while many ships refuse to follow their niche role, and looks like we never had a real balance here to break.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
21487
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 17:00:10 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz"
I agree with now but - pirate titans -
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
=]|[=
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Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 17:02:24 -
[13] - Quote
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Speaking of Minmatar: wouldn't the game be more balanced if Minmatar ships would be optimized for shield tanking with a shield booster preference than the current half-armor half shield mess? People keep saying that specialization is better than being a jack of all trades. If Minmatar as a faction isn't specialized for any kind of defense (active shield tank in this case should be the niche of the whole faction) shouldn't it have the worst tank in the whole game? To be honest, it's quite hard to follow the rules of the game if the devs keep ignoring them regularly.
People keep worrying about "niche role" and "balance" while many ships refuse to follow their niche role, and looks like we never had a real balance here to break.
This is something ive been ranting about for a while but concluded CCP cares little for our opinions. I wish they would take all the Minmatar ships and bring them on line with each other in terms of there capabilities. For example, i like to play Minmatar ships with missles. so looking at my options for missles ships i have the following.
Frigate - Breacher Destroyer - Talwar Cruiser - Bellicose Battlecruiser - Cyclone Battleship - Typhoon
So i start with a breacher and its a decent ship to start with, i have my missle bonus and a bonus to sheilds to make it tanky. then we upgrade to the Talwar were the ship seems to be more focused on speed tanking...ok a bit of a change but ill work it. then i upgrade to the bellicose were i have a bonus to target painters...well now im feeling more like a support then anything but ill make it work. then i move on to the Cyclone where hey im back to missle bonus's and a nice sheild tank again and i finally finish it all off with the Battleship Typhoon...wait a sec i got no skills in amour at this point... |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1197
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 17:09:16 -
[14] - Quote
Battleship shield logi is missing counterpart is in the game
Drone projectile boat is missing counterpart(s) are in the game
Ecm yeah no.
You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear
Because >>I is too hard
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3989
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 18:38:16 -
[15] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
I never quite under stood this, why does a ship need to fill a niche? I say this because if you look at all the eve ships on a spectrum, everyone all ways gravitates to certain ships due to the min-maxing nature of eve. we end up with ships like assault frigates and cruisers being pushed out of there niches by other ships. balances of course eventually occur to make them relevant again but then what happens to the ships that displaced them in the first place? now they are displaced in a niche. given the sand box nature of EVE online, making ships to fill a niche dont make sense to me but rather they are just an inevitability of how capsuleers use the ships. Now obviously CCP has made ships to fill certain roles in order to make all ship hulls relevant... My point is ships are being added to EVE when all there doing is displace other ships from there "Niche". CCP seems to be more focused on content then balance...
to be honest im not as concerned with the relevancy of a ships use as much as i am with relevancy of lore. I rather see more ships introduced to expand on the lore. the only other thing that would make any lore sense then ECM would be a bonus to target painters...Target painters are good for what they do, but for what they do there are many other peices of equipment that can be taken that are far more relevant to a ship in combat. plus projectiles with target painters sounds like a sniper kind of rig, that something that already exist.
but you do bring up good points on why ECM range wouldnt make too much sense.
Thukkars are known for roaming so there combat would probably be more along the line of hit and run as minmatar ships are not exactly known for there ability to tank.
The reason why ship need a niche is so we don't get completely useless ship that have no point to existing or ship made obsolete because the new ship is just trampling over other hull's niche. A big part of why the AF are dead right now is the T3D being flat out better at anything an AF used to be used for.
Your proposition is essentially a mash up of some racial bonus from 2 side that have no direction. It's only possible use would be lolbait and even that...[/quote]
I get what your saying but let me explain a different way. The Typhoon, what niche does it fill? its a BS with a bonus to missiles and projectiles. but the Minmatar already have a projectile BS that gets better bonuses, and the Raven can out do the Typhoon with missiles all day. The only thing that makes the Typhoon different from the two mentions ships is the Typhoon is armour tanked compared to shield. Now note that when it comes to BS's the Gallante and Amarr have ships that can out do the Typhoon in armour tanking. So the Typhoon doesn't necessarily fit a niche that already isn't filled. Yet its still used. If the point of making a ship is to fill a niche then CCP would have to rework all the ships from the ground up and make them significantly different from each other to fill those roles. this raises the question of what niche do the new CONCORD ships fill? I see a large demand for a cargo ship between transports and freighters but this "niche" has been and left for years? a Niche is obviously not the driving force for CCP to introduce new ships. enlighten me and tell me what would you recommend as a niche that needs to be filled?[/quote]
Wait can you really not think of anything the phoon excels at better than any other BB? Or even any other ship? Or were you just being hyperbolic to make a point
Every if that were true a ship that already exists but has no niche is not the same as adding one that fills no gap. If anything it reinforces my point. Adding a ship to the game isn't just "okay we'll put in a new ship" and poof it's there. It's time and resources that are not being used elsewhere. And it's not just a one time investment either. Ccp have added in ships before simply on a "wouldn't it be cool if" and i can only thunk of one tune it paid off and is not simply a constant drain on the game.
BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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Lugh Crow-Slave
3989
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 18:40:02 -
[16] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: no this ship fills no empty niche in eve and i feel you want it "just cuz"
I agree with now but - pirate titans -
Idk i find they fill a rather important niche not as good as they could have but that's ccp either too cautious or too overzealous they never really figured out the middle ground approach
BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
|
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 22:28:43 -
[17] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:This is something ive been ranting about for a while but concluded CCP cares little for our opinions. I wish they would take all the Minmatar ships and bring them on line with each other in terms of there capabilities. For example, i like to play Minmatar ships with missles. so looking at my options for missles ships i have the following.
Frigate - Breacher Destroyer - Talwar Cruiser - Bellicose Battlecruiser - Cyclone Battleship - Typhoon
So i start with a breacher and its a decent ship to start with, i have my missle bonus and a bonus to sheilds to make it tanky. then we upgrade to the Talwar were the ship seems to be more focused on speed tanking...ok a bit of a change but ill work it. then i upgrade to the bellicose were i have a bonus to target painters...well now im feeling more like a support then anything but ill make it work. then i move on to the Cyclone where hey im back to missle bonus's and a nice sheild tank again and i finally finish it all off with the Battleship Typhoon...wait a sec i got no skills in amour at this point...
I feel what happened was that the guys at CCP went through every ship in the game and gave them bonus's to ensure they have a "niche" in the game. they made a rule saying no two ships have a similar bonus making them too close in fucntion where they both could complete for a "niche". they then went through every faction starting with Gallante, then amarr then Caldari and finished off with Minmatar. hence why Minmatar has such a hodge bodge of ship bonuses as not to be too similar to other faction ships. This is the result of rebalancing things "one ship at a time" instead of doing them in groups of similar ships.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
|
Tiberius NoVegas
Undead Dragons Dragon Knights Inc
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 02:19:15 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Wait can you really not think of anything the phoon excels at better than any other BB? Or even any other ship? Or were you just being hyperbolic to make a point
Every if that were true a ship that already exists but has no niche is not the same as adding one that fills no gap. If anything it reinforces my point. Adding a ship to the game isn't just "okay we'll put in a new ship" and poof it's there. It's time and resources that are not being used elsewhere. And it's not just a one time investment either. Ccp have added in ships before simply on a "wouldn't it be cool if" and i can only thunk of one tune it paid off and is not simply a constant drain on the game.
The kill boards prove that every ship in EVE Online is used...jsut some get more use then others. as far as making every ship relevent, I think CCP needs to stop going around fixing ship by ship and look at the ships on a spectrum. As of right now, ever time they "balance" one ship they end up pushing another out of its role.
while on the topic i have to address the Angel Cartel, they are good with projectiles and get a bonus to warping...so they use guns and move fast, isnt this suppose to be the basic role of the Minmatar? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3989
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 09:00:57 -
[19] - Quote
Again you are proving my point and reinforcing the position many of us hold.
There are already to many ships.
However rebalancing a ship has rarely ever and i would love you to give me an example that caused ANOTHER ship to lose any niche. However i can provide several where adding ships did just that if you need me to.
Your point about niches shows you do understand that niches exist. And my point is that a web hybrid is nor one of them.
The phoon kills cruisers I a way no other ship in eve can for example and is a particularly strong counter against many of the kitier ones if flown right. Another is a strong counter against many sort range BB that outrun other long range platforms like the raven or rhok. It's niche has nothing to do with projectiles or armor or shield. But how all of its stats play off one another. From minimal cap usage and high speed to its rhml and flexible use of mids lows and even highs that make it very adaptive. Something not found I many other BB ego generally only fill one our two rolls.
BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
|
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 07:14:35 -
[20] - Quote
First off Thukker are Nomads, and what Nomads need is Mobility, getaway tricks and the ability to Haul lots of stuff. So what I'd propose is a Hybrid faction hauler which can still be used for combat roles.
There are lots of options on how you could build these ships, but here are some options.
So start with these: 20% bonus to Hull upgrade Modules per Minmatar Industrial Level 90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
Then possible offensive options to think over: 1 km range bonus to smartbombs per Caldari Level Bonus to ECM Burst Jammer strength and/or range per Caldari Level or allow 2 to be fitted. Increased Turret tracking Speed Increased Turret falloff Increased Turret Rate of Fire Ability to use Bombs
And some possible support and utility options to think about: Cannot be detected by directional scanners Bonus to remote Hull Repair Amount 300% bonus to Hull Repair module range Can be fit with Target Spectrum Breakers Bonus to Remote Sensor Booster Bonus to Remote Tracking Computer MicroJumpDrive or field generator +2 Warp Core Strength Fleet Hangar
Also I'd like to note that I think a great change for Hull repair modules would be to change Hull repair into a regeneration, like shields, when a repair module is active, instead of an applied base amount. |
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Asset Confiscation Officer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2017.06.09 18:42:45 -
[21] - Quote
1. Why is this ship needed.
2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.
3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.
4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2017.06.10 10:54:28 -
[22] - Quote
Asset Confiscation Officer wrote:1. Why is this ship needed.
2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.
3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.
4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar. I can't answer the OP, but I'll try with my Thukker logi version.
1: There is no omni-logi ship in the game. Even if we only keep the remote armor rep and shield boost, this would be useful for any fleet. Literally any fleet.
2: Orca and Nestor are a good argument here for existing large logi ships. But could you please list me a few battles where Orcas were taken on purpose, definitely to fill the role of shield logi ships? Nestor is another interesting case. By lore it should be a black-ops ship. The best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor, but if we make these ships maybe we could put the Nestor to it's rightful place too. Also, I think a group of armor logi cruisers of the same value would actually be much more useful in almost any situation than a few Nestors fit for remote rep.
3: I have to skip this.
4: maybe people wouldn't make fun of Minmatar more often than the other factions, if the faction itself wouldn't be a mess.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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Tiberius NoVegas
EVE University Ivy League
23
|
Posted - 2017.06.11 01:07:11 -
[23] - Quote
Asset Confiscation Officer wrote:1. Why is this ship needed.
2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.
3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.
4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar.
1. The Minmatar-Caldari need a pirate faction to fill the void between these two factions. as of right now with the absence of one there is no incentive for pilots to train these two ship skills together exclusively except they just like those two faction ship lines. This will also make more sense in game lore as there is no real strong reason for them not have formed a pirate faction other then the same old "friend of my enemy" argument that i believe is debunked by the amount of lore showing they have and still do work together in limited scope.
2. A Logi pirate faction ship doesnt exist. im not saying the example i gave should be the one used but i believe there is a huge potential for a logi pirate ship. The thing about logi ships is that you can remove them from the game and it will impact the balance a bit but it wont be game breaking. logi just change up the normal dynamic of a battle by swaying the battle in a non-standard way. Its impossible to prove something is needed in the game when its an enhancement instead of a balancer.
3. i direct your attention to the new CONCORD ship line. please defend CCP's decision on this, this "precious" coding is already being used up by CCP on a lot of things that the game doesnt need.
4. I love the Minmatar but i think one thing many Players agree on is that the Minmatar are a mess. Maybe a mess isnt the right word but the Minmatar ship line up is definitely all over the the place. No other single faction requires as many different skills to be just as proficient then the Minamatar. This affects game balance as a Minmatar player with the same SP as another player in any other single faction is going to have gaps formed in the required skills needed for his ship line up. This has been around for years and CCP should bring the entire line up into coherency as it would be a better use for coding then added a new CONCORD ship line. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
1212
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Posted - 2017.06.11 08:23:44 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:he best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor
Nestor is introduced many years after black ops ships and i don't think CCP even had Nestor in plan as black ops given those ships are tech II and Nestor is a pirate class ship.
all cloaky shenanigans stops at cruiser lvl exception being four battleships i think its like that for a good reason.
You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear
Because >>I is too hard
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2017.06.11 11:23:18 -
[25] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Quote:The best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor Nestor is introduced many years after black ops ships and i don't think CCP even had Nestor in plan as black ops given those ships are tech II and Nestor is a pirate class ship. all cloaky shenanigans stops at cruiser lvl exception being four battleships i think its like that for a good reason. Isn't one of the main benefit of SOE ships that you can have almost T2 level cov-ops explorer for barely any required skill? In fact you need cov-ops level 4 to have a better probe bonus than what the SOE ships get as a role bonus. Sure, it's not the best idea to give players a black-ops battleship for 2x level 3 battleship skills, however Nestor is still a relatively rare and definitely expensive ship, and you would need a lot of extra skills to use it properly, and the T2 black-ops will probably be better when you get there.
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:4. I love the Minmatar but i think one thing many Players agree on is that the Minmatar are a mess. Maybe a mess isnt the right word but the Minmatar ship line up is definitely all over the the place. No other single faction requires as many different skills to be just as proficient then the Minamatar. This affects game balance as a Minmatar player with the same SP as another player in any other single faction is going to have gaps formed in the required skills needed for his ship line up. This has been around for years and CCP should bring the entire line up into coherency as it would be a better use for coding then added a new CONCORD ship line. The most common argument against this this is "Minmatar always was like this". I have 3 problems with this: - this is a fact, not a reason - this doesn't explain why is it better for the balance to have 3 factions with specialized defense and one with both armor and shield, instead of having all 4 factions use one of the 4 different defense methods and make all of them completely unique - if I slightly rephrase that sentence, what I get is: "Look, I know and/or don't care that this basically goes against the game's own rules and follows no logic at all, but we're over a decade in this game like this and it never made any sense, so why change it now?"
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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Autchei
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.06.12 23:47:19 -
[26] - Quote
There is no omni-logi ship in the game.
And none should be added, just my opinion. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 00:27:33 -
[27] - Quote
Autchei wrote:There is no omni-logi ship in the game.
And none should be added, just my opinion. Please forgive me, but I will turn the game's current logic against your opinion: if we have a faction that has both armor and shield tanked ships, and the new Loki will be able to have both armor and shield tank in the same subsystem and both options are just as efficient as the other factions' defenses, then we definitely need omni-logi ships.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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StarterrorPrime
Black Rose Fleet Systems
2
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Posted - 2017.06.13 01:19:54 -
[28] - Quote
From my understanding, a Minmatar Caldari hybrid ship seems like a great idea because of Minmatari projectile weapons focus and Caldari use of Missiles, but as people said before, Minmatar fleet doctrine is diverse to say the least while Caldari is streamlined in a way. The ideal hybrid would be a Missile Sniper platform with a bonus to missile damage and a boost to shield extenders and boosters in terms of efficiency, while keeping the ship preferably within known lore, making it a prime candidate for the Archangels since their fleet doctrine favors that sort of thing. Now as far as size class, I would think cruiser or destroyer would be perfect for this type of vessel without being over the top in terms of cost, still there is quite a bit of clash in fleet design doctrines as far as Caldari Minmatar design operates.
Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships |
Tiberius NoVegas
EVE University Ivy League
23
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Posted - 2017.06.13 08:39:32 -
[29] - Quote
StarterrorPrime wrote:From my understanding, a Minmatar Caldari hybrid ship seems like a great idea because of Minmatari projectile weapons focus and Caldari use of Missiles, but as people said before, Minmatar fleet doctrine is diverse to say the least while Caldari is streamlined in a way. The ideal hybrid would be a Missile Sniper platform with a bonus to missile damage and a boost to shield extenders and boosters in terms of efficiency, while keeping the ship preferably within known lore, making it a prime candidate for the Archangels since their fleet doctrine favors that sort of thing. Now as far as size class, I would think cruiser or destroyer would be perfect for this type of vessel without being over the top in terms of cost, still there is quite a bit of clash in fleet design doctrines as far as Caldari Minmatar design operates.
While this is a possibility, i dont know enough about Archangels lore to say they have a strong Minmatar-Caldari connection to make them exclusive to those two factions. While there lore supports the fighting style and lore of pirates, there is nothing says they exclusively use missles or projectiles either...
StarterrorPrime wrote:Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships
Where is this lore written? The Minmatar created there ships from other ships a long time ago. the modern day hulls are very much there own design now. The Republic Fleet has there own modules because there manufacturing them in Minmatar space and not salvaging them off other factions. There is speculation that the Thukkers still do this but mainly for profit and not for equipping. |
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 09:47:57 -
[30] - Quote
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:StarterrorPrime wrote:Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships Where is this lore written? The Minmatar created there ships from other ships a long time ago. the modern day hulls are very much there own design now. The Republic Fleet has there own modules because there manufacturing them in Minmatar space and not salvaging them off other factions. There is speculation that the Thukkers still do this but mainly for profit and not for equipping. Yup, it looks like the lore is the reason why Minmatar is kind of all over the place, but then shouldn't they have bonuses to all types of turrets too? You can't balance a game around it's lore, it's like the function follows the shape, if anything it should be the opposite way: The people of Minmatar were the slaves of Amarr, so their ships are designed to be the opposite of what Amarr has: active shield instead of passive armor, and anti-armor projectiles against the anti-shield lasers. Also, shield boosters are easier to make because they only need energy while armor requires a lot of materials, so if you have nothing then you will probably go the easiest way you can find. It's not hard to make both the lore and the logic work.
If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!
But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
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