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Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 11:38:39 -
[1] - Quote
I used to run incursions as my primary income source until I bought a carrier for pvp. Now a carrier, already the worst PVP cap ship ( remembers old slowcat days fondly now) will also be worse at ratting to support my ever growing cap ships. A carrier to rat in has allowed me to buy more than one cap. Now I have a dread, fax, and a carrier.
All what I see in these changes, rorq's, faction BS's, now carriers is a systematic effort to hurt the regular null sec PVPer and give yet more isk to the stupid rich while at the same time trying to turn EVE into a free to play game at the level of WoT or Clash of Clans.
I hope it does not get to that point, but sadly looks more and more likely every time I see a post like this one. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:03:36 -
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Sassura wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I said this on reddit but I'll say it here too. I know it won't stop the freak out because people can be pretty dumb when it comes to money, but here it is anyways.
People are too short sighted to understand that these nerfs (this one to carriers/supers and the one about escalations) end up helping people by making deadspace loot and pirate BS BPCs way more valuable across the board. It shifts the income making from anom grinding to doing 10/10s (sure you have to grind for them, but the fewer times you get them will eventually be made up by price after the current stockpiles are depleted). This is a good thing. People who don't agree with you may not be dumb. They may simply feel that a substantial nerf to fighters is not the best way to go about making the changes that this game needs.
Its not the impact to PVE that concerns me, but the reality that this is actually a PVP nerf. They will once again give people a reason to not use carriers for pvp. They are already the most useless cap type for PVP as it is, and now its gonna be worse.
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Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:14:01 -
[3] - Quote
Burberry Muffin wrote:Gwinet wrote:Lucian James wrote: From skill injectors, to pictures of gold bar stacks as Plex, to nerfing Rorquals time and time again... CCP is coming off more and more like a money grubbing sh:t-heel of a company only interested in base profit for themselves and squeezing us out of our time and money.
Stop making it more difficult for people with less RL money and time to play this game. The people ratting in carriers and mining in rorquals spent a lot of time, money/isk and emotional investment getting into these ships. They do so because many are in areas of high-end PVP and this keeps them fighting.
If you have a problem with PVE areas with no PVP recourse... vast renter fields churning out isk that goes into a few wallets of pilots that never PVP nor spend it, find a creative way to deal with THAT problem, instead of nerfing everyone in what appears as a blatant attempt to get people to buy more Plex so you can horde our money.
I am getting really sick of your stupidity and carelessness lately.
#CCPigs
I absolutely agree! AGREE
The motion has been approved and seconded.
ALL in favor say Aye |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 14:15:27 -
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I decided to do some quick math.
My current thanatos for ratting does 2883.7 DPS as shown ingame. With a 20% drop, I expect that DPS number to fall to 2306.
Also, my average tick is just shy of 50 mil. I expect to see average ticks of 40 mil. Combine that with a corp tax of 12.5%, I am looking at about 36.8 mil average ticks after taxes. That is just BARELY better than a ishtar. So, I now ask myself, what is the point?
I have perfect ishtar skills already, so why bother with a almost perfect carrier anymore? IMO Waste of skillpoints and time getting ot Fighters V, and I have Gall CArrier V half done. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 14:45:41 -
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Jenn aSide wrote:Mute Karimar wrote:When I compare my almost maxed Rattle-skills and the ticks I generate with that with my mediocre carrier-skills and their ticks that 20% nerf actually will make it more worthwhile for me to go in a Rattle than to bring the Carrier.
So I gotta second the question asked often here yet: Why not remove the damn carriers at all? Or just sell me a damn SKIN for lets say 60EUR that makes my Rattle look like a carrier? I stuck to my Rattlesnake the entire time because as soon as I saw the 1st Monthly Economic Report after the fighter changes and saw that HUGE spike in null sec bounties my 1st thought was "they are going to nerf that". Now they are nerfing that. I'm glad I kept my last 10 Rattlesnake blueprints
Seeing as the average, semi-skilled carrier will make no better than a Ishtar on the average, and a max carrier wwill only make 5-10m more it removes the entire incentive to run a carrier for ratting. Might as well all go back to AFK VNI's and ishtars at this rate. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 14:53:07 -
[6] - Quote
I expect to see the following meta after this change takes affect.
1. carrier and super fleets will be put on back burner 2. Titans, dreads and fax fleets will dominate cap warfare
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Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 15:04:25 -
[7] - Quote
So, decided to do some more math. Average damage of most combat carrier fits
Chimera - averages 1700 with almost max skills Thanny - 1800 Archon - 1500 Nid - 1500
so, for PVP, archons and nids could easily expect to see just above 1k dps average, while chimmy's and thannies should expect a drop to around 1.3k damage.
Just sad. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 20:32:55 -
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So, with all the TQ instability today plus this nerf announcement, one has to wonder.
Also the fact this nerf was posted today, just four days(?) before the change is supposed to happen, not cool. At least rorq guys got some time to digest their nerf and such, carrier and super pilots, which is way more than rorq pilots, got the short stick. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.09 20:35:19 -
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blackmamba230 Pappotte wrote:
Hope u got a dread, fax or titan, because thats the only thing that will be used in cap pvp now. Not even supers will still be widely used I would think. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 17:24:11 -
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So, lets analyze end game content
Lv5 missions - decent option but most ppl hate missions with a passion and will not grind enough to get there. Incursions - has not had a big change since the dawn of the ages, still a lucrative avenue if you have the time and patience Null sec mining - the rorq is getting nerfed to the point it may only get used as a mobile ore compression ship in the forceable future, hope you kept your hulks Null sec anomolies - aka carrier/super ratting. Kiss it goodbye C6 WH sleeper sites - Only a handful can even run these because of time required plus everyone must be online at specific times to make it work.
So, what will be left?
Lv5's, incursions, and sleeper sites after this series of nerfs.
Guess end game content is no more again.
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Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 18:39:25 -
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Backz Banny wrote:Devon Stone wrote:Backz Banny wrote:so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:
why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive". just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.
You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs. yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income. did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game? i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-
You know, I generally find amusements in comment chains, this one was one of the best so far. Love your line about the potted plant.
Anyway, IMO the fighter nerf in paticular is not a PVE nerf rather a PVP one in reality. Gonna make me very sad. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 18:48:09 -
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Mestori Anar wrote:If the problem was bounties, wtf are nerfing the ship?!?!?!?! Keep the ship as is, and then do a logarthmic drop for bounties. The higher tick you get, the lower your next tick will be for x amount of time. That way casuals who rat for an hour or so can still get their income while the guys who are truly the 1% of the 1% will see their ticks drop dramatically if they are constantly super ratting.
I am nowhere near the 1% of the 1% and these changes absolutely suck.
I take my thanny out to rat maybe a hour or two at most at a time, and I am NOT even near the 1% of the 1%. I do own a few caps, but its just a carrier, fax, and dread. Now, my carrier I use for both ratting and PVP when it is called for (or when I am not in the mood to dorp the fax or dread) now it can ONLY be used for isk making because TY CCP you just made it so no alliance no matter how big will want to use carriers anymore. They already were the Red Headed Stepchild of caps, now it will be worse. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 18:54:57 -
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Teckos Pech wrote:Valdr Auduin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:Quote:
600% more ISK entering the game.
So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun. Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP. Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right. I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to! You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out. Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint: P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get: 2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H. This can be re-written as: 2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H. Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H. That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index. So pull your head out of ass. Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation. I can live with that reasoning, but how do you answer to carriers not being viable for fighting things? That is the trick. Keep them from injecting too much ISK into the game and make them PVP viable. One draconian solution is just keep them out of the anomalies. Somebody else suggested a hull penalty when ratting (note the penalty could be to payouts not the ships functionality). I find both of these rather uninspiring, but probably better than what we have now.
What I would like to see is some actual capital sites. Disallow caps from warping to normal anomolies, and add cap only anoms. Make them to the style of sleeper sites, but toned down so they can be solo'd. Also adding in a cap anom that requires more than one, maybe a fax too owuld be fun actually. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 19:31:53 -
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1330+ comments by now, vast majority in full disagreement with this nerf, many even sharing potential fixes that are actually good. Dunno what else to say really. Put in my own 2 cents many times now on this thread. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 19:53:01 -
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Laenatus wrote:Ezio Sotken wrote:1330+ comments by now, vast majority in full disagreement with this nerf, many even sharing potential fixes that are actually good. Dunno what else to say really. Put in my own 2 cents many times now on this thread. The whole entirety of the player base could post here saying this is terrible, with a myriad of reasons why, and offer plausible alternatives, and this wouldn't change a thing. CCP refuses to acknowledge its client's issues with how they conduct the game, nor do they have to. This half planned "Fix" is going through and there is nothing we can do about it - outside of unsubscribe and take our friends elsewhere. Even if this happened enough to dip their incomes, i believe they will still continue to make poor decisions to a terminal end. (aeb recurrent, terrible decisions) It is true insanity by the very definition of the word.
What amazes me the most is that here, in this setting, Co2, Goons, PL, FCON, TEST, everyone else all agree on osmething. Honestly thought the day would never come where I would agree with a PL guy or a Goon guy ( no offense ).
For me, the saddest part of this is the destruction of a cap ship class because of "PVE". |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.10 20:09:08 -
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Kaze Mester wrote:CCP is still quiet.
nah, I forget exactly, sure someone has the reddit saved, but a dev said the change really is to hurt the 1% of the 1%. Also speculation in my alliance that CCP really wants to kill carriers from PVP fleets. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.11 12:26:37 -
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Crash 888 wrote:Molun Darnus wrote:ALL of this comes down to 1 mistake from CCP, skill injectors, there wouldn't be half the super/titan/rorq pilots in eve if it wasn't for them.....and now we the players take the fall for it..
YOU broke eve, and now you are trying to fix it in the only way you know how...the nerf bat!
GJ o/ and without injectors the remaining half that can pilot them get to use broken nonsense like rr archons for YEARS before any change is made now all scrubs can abuse the broken thing equally so of course certain groups don't like the injectors
And without injectors, the char bazaar would not have turned into a cess pool. Also people would not be able to rush into caps, train and buy one, but be unprepared. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.11 14:33:36 -
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Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Just my 2+º
Make rats kill more drones/fighters. A drone boat without drones is useless, specially an AFK drone boat. Dead drones/fighters would become a larger sink and would limit the run time for a specific anomaly since the ratter would need to refill its stocks.
Rats already target fighters like nuts. Any reasonable carrier pilot will never warp at 0 first of all, and just because of proximity, fighters get the aggro most of the time.
Also its impossible to afk rat in a carrier unless you want to lose 27 fighters every few anoms, and witj T2's thats not gonna be cheap. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.11 14:34:35 -
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Drago Misharie wrote:Why don't they make Null Sec Anoms Escalate when a carrier warps in to slow them down instead of nerfing the fighters?
For every carrier that warps in you get NPC Carrier and Logi, warp in 3 carriers and you get triple the dps being applied.
That's a better way to balance.
Make it more time consuming and challenging to pilots.
I would be down for that, sleeper site rules for escelation. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.11 17:57:56 -
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No testing, nothing on Singularity or Duality, and what does this mean?
1. Patch goes to plan ( doubtful) 2. A typo or other mistake causes the nerf to be much worse ( eg, 80% instead of 20%) 3. The nerfs are less then expected ( lets say 10% instead of 20%)
Either way, expect nothing to go to plan since NO TESTING was done |
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Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.12 01:41:57 -
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Jang Taredi wrote:Tom Ocilithon wrote:Right then. There's practically no point adding to the mountain of **** that's gone down already, but here goes:
So I'm a new cap pilot, just bought myself a shiny new thanatos. I've spent a year training for this, and I've spent just shy of 5 billion ISK on it. I look forward to ratting with it, possibly make back the time and money I've put into this thing.
Suddenly - "Fighter damage reduction", and I think "Oh. It'll be something like a 5% reduction. 10% If we're being serious." Hmm.
I don't understand what CCP are thinking. A 20% nerf to fighter damage is insane. I've only just got my hands on a carrier, and I'm having 700dps just lopped off of my initial 3500dps. I've been training for this for a third of my EVE career, and I've been grinding for this thing, only to have it stomped on as I get it. Thanks. To make things easier, someone has obviously had the great idea of "Oh, lets give everyone 5 days notice before we drop this!" Just enough time to do... oh wait. Nothing.
I must admit. I was worried that it was the 1st of April, and I'd just gone mad. But at this point, it looks like those damned "Biomass converters" might genuinely be added, which would still be more balanced than these fighter changes.
The forum post mentioned that "This ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players." well, I'd like to point out that this is called "Progression"! This is what makes EVE actually fun! There's always something bigger and shinier, and carriers are a large part of the higher up progression elements of EVE. This is the point - for a relatively small number of people to be at the top of a progression distribution in terms of players by character skill and by extension, age.
Now, I am highly against the idea of just un-subbing, it seems a damn sight close to blackmailing the developers into giving us what we want and not thinking about the overall balance of the game. But when such an obviously harmful nerf is dropped with 5 days worth of notice, that basically makes the last year worth of grinding and skill training redundant, I am furious. And that's extremely difficult for a British person to say. I have dropped my subscription, with the only regret that my re-sub happened too recently.
CCP, please genuinely listen to our feedback. We have a wonderful game which has been built by both developers and the community. Do not **** it up like this.
TL:DR - These fighter changes can **** off. I've friends that were training and having supercarriers built, only to have the same happen. Their 20bil ships will only be worth 15bil, as well.
15 bil if they are lucky. If they bought an aeon or wyvern....yea gonna suck. |
Ezio Sotken
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Posted - 2017.06.12 22:57:50 -
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Marcel Garsk wrote:baltec1 wrote:This is simply rage at money making machines getting a nerf, we have seen this **** before. Did CCP **** up? Yes. I have seen this coming from day one of the carrier changes which is why I didn't bother to train any alts into it, the only surprise is that it took this long. Yes! Carrier training was not a smart idea. Much wiser idea is to undock fifty money making mini-machines called VNI...
Just retrain into a fax, you will be loved by your cap buddies. |
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