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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:14:21 -
[1] - Quote
CCP has statistics for almost everything.
It means, that they probably do have it covered with data telling them carrier and super ratting is just OP money faucet, even compared to incursions so reason is surely there. Also, Incursions are group activity and actually need a lot of organization compared to solo ratting in null so thats one point why Incursions are not targeted probably.
However, nerfing Fighter damage overall is IMHO "easy solution", which is bad. I am afraid to take my carrier into PVP as it is bacause I can be killed easily by couple of subcaps, my high damage and jump drive is the only thing that makes my Thanatos Carrier different from Dominix.
If problem is Capitals in PVE, then the addressed problem should be CARRIERS AND PVE, not carriers overall. The best solution IMO would be to code rats some special "fighter resistance" or "fighter damage taken reduction". You can play with that number then to optimize ISK ticks to some reasonable levels.
Nerfing carriers in PVP is bad. They are weak already IMO.
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Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:20:41 -
[2] - Quote
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:"We want to reduce the income players receive from pirate bounties."
Why not just, y'know, reduce the payout of bounties directly instead of defanging (super)carriers in PVP?
That would also reduce payouts for ratters not using carriers. And that is not intended (and needed) IMO.
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Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:33:42 -
[3] - Quote
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:Siobhan MacLeary wrote:"We want to reduce the income players receive from pirate bounties."
Why not just, y'know, reduce the payout of bounties directly instead of defanging (super)carriers in PVP? That would also reduce payouts for ratters not using carriers. And that is not intended (and needed) IMO. Carriers are the core of the problem, but nerfing them overall is bad still. An alternative thought: decrease pirate SIG to make it harder to hit them with fighters. I feel increasingly like these changes are designed specifically to **** over goons. Rorqual nerfs, then pirate BS price increase, then carrier nerfs. In order: Screws with income for our members, screws with our future ability to supply high-end doctrines, then fucks with both line member income and utility in PvP.
Goons like to present nerfs as Anti-Goons nerfs but believe me or not, other people also use carriers for ratting. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:35:12 -
[4] - Quote
Yavin Four wrote:How to break your game and anger your players by slashing their income:
Step 1: Increase sig radius to all fighters Step 2: Decrease damage output to all fighters. Step 3: Again, Decrease damage output to all fighters by 20%. Step 4: ??? Step 5: No profit
Well the problem is, your income is so high it causes inflation in the game. So .. yes, reducing your income IS the point here. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:38:11 -
[5] - Quote
HuntedMaster wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:Siobhan MacLeary wrote:"We want to reduce the income players receive from pirate bounties."
Why not just, y'know, reduce the payout of bounties directly instead of defanging (super)carriers in PVP? That would also reduce payouts for ratters not using carriers. And that is not intended (and needed) IMO. Carriers are the core of the problem, but nerfing them overall is bad still. Wrong, what your doing is making 6 ishtars the way to go, and still plexing all your accounts, and risking nothing, hell use Vni's. You be talkin a load o dat rubbish der.
Well then sites should be redesigned to actually need some interaction. Nerfing payouts overall would of course help the economy the most, but thats quite radical and I imagine people saying here "just reduce payouts overall" bitching like crazy when that change is implemented and saying something like "dont punish us for someone else using carriers". |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:41:07 -
[6] - Quote
Panther X wrote:Total Newbie wrote:Simple solutions for your simple minds CCP.
Rather than kill entire classes of ships in your effort to throw out the baby with the bath water, why don't you:
1. Have rats apply even more massive damage to fighters/bombers.
2. put a gate on anoms/sites that capital class ships can't enter
3. spend more time finding your terrible code and fixing it.
I mentioned 2 earlier and IMO it's probably the easiest and most "balanced" way to fix this "problem". If you implement #2 then #1 is moot anyway. If you want to implement #2 you will probably have to do #3 anyway, so we ALL win. Please CCP, listen to us here. Some people CANNOT afford to play this game in a paid subscription/RL money way. If you keep removing viable options for us to play by working for it, then you are going to see a reduction in the Omega clone subscriptions. I'm not saying "I quit" but I will be looking at the number of Omega subs I have. I'm not a high volume player like some people are, and I am not the richest guy in the game, but in my tenure here, I have been able to make good business decisions, and save enough to not HAVE to pay for my subs. But I would rather save that isk for a rainy day, or invest in side projects, than blow it all on however many subs I would need. At the end of the day (gawd I hate that line) your heavy handed band aid solutions are not garnering you any good will here. Please step back for a moment and re-evaluate your course of action here. Eve isn't here because of you, CCP. It is here because we love this game, and we love the community we have built around it (despite Gons best efforts to the contrary--JK) and it is here because we continue to open our wallets every month, 6 months, 12 months etc and continue to pay your salaries, buy new equipment and bring tourism to Iceland every year. CCP doesn't pay for Fanfest. WE DO. CCP you would do well to remember that.
The economy here is obeying supply and demand. If you reduce the ISK generation -> less ISK on market -> less people buying PLEX -> PLEX price goes down -> people start buying PLEX again -> balance. I believe you will not end up not being able to buy PLEX. Hell you can buy PLEX after ONE evening of ratting. Even if you had to spend 2 or 3, its still f***** easy. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
August - Breeze wrote:I put my money where my mouth is and I just CANCELED my second account that I had for my carrier pilot. I will transfer my capital pilot over to my main account. (note: I have never PVE'ed in my carrier)
I encourage everyone to do the same thing!
CCP sticks it to us, we need to stick them right back by decreasing THEIR income!
So now, you can only make like 150 mil per hour instead of 200? Worth to cancel account yea. 1 hour longer time to make PLEX ... which will be cheaper if there is less ISK made by ratting overall. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
14
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:51:55 -
[8] - Quote
Erie TehGM wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:August - Breeze wrote:I put my money where my mouth is and I just CANCELED my second account that I had for my carrier pilot. I will transfer my capital pilot over to my main account. (note: I have never PVE'ed in my carrier)
I encourage everyone to do the same thing!
CCP sticks it to us, we need to stick them right back by decreasing THEIR income! So now, you can only make like 150 mil per hour instead of 200? Worth to cancel account yea. 1 hour longer time to make PLEX ... But only one account to keep subbed.
Not when hes cancelling the ratting one ;) |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2017.06.09 12:57:43 -
[9] - Quote
Krypleria wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:August - Breeze wrote:I put my money where my mouth is and I just CANCELED my second account that I had for my carrier pilot. I will transfer my capital pilot over to my main account. (note: I have never PVE'ed in my carrier)
I encourage everyone to do the same thing!
CCP sticks it to us, we need to stick them right back by decreasing THEIR income! So now, you can only make like 150 mil per hour instead of 200? Worth to cancel account yea. 1 hour longer time to make PLEX ... It is actually from 150m to 90m with alot more risk to fighter losses wich bring that down even more. Not too mention... the biggest problem in eve is actually there are NO more isk burners... like wars ... because .... CITADELS !
Is ISK really burned when you lose ships / citadels? Think about it.
You are paying for the things to someone else. He has the money now. You lose the ship/citadel, he still has the ISK you gave him. You generate more ISK via ratting, he mines more ore and makes more ships. You give him the generated ISK, he gives you ship. So what is burned here actually is ORE, not ISK. ISK is burned via insurances that expire, LP stores, NPC repairs and market taxes. The good ISK sink would be simply more transactions. So yea, wars do it too, but its not so direct and doesnt neccesarily have the effect. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:04:11 -
[10] - Quote
Sassura wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I said this on reddit but I'll say it here too. I know it won't stop the freak out because people can be pretty dumb when it comes to money, but here it is anyways.
People are too short sighted to understand that these nerfs (this one to carriers/supers and the one about escalations) end up helping people by making deadspace loot and pirate BS BPCs way more valuable across the board. It shifts the income making from anom grinding to doing 10/10s (sure you have to grind for them, but the fewer times you get them will eventually be made up by price after the current stockpiles are depleted). This is a good thing. People who don't agree with you may not be dumb. They may simply feel that a substantial nerf to fighters is not the best way to go about making the changes that this game needs.
He is reffering to overall economics, not exactly carrier damage nerf. While I disagree with Carrier PVP nerf, carrier PVE nerf alone is really needed, as is all ratting in fact. And Incursions. ISK is generated too quickly and too easily, causes inflation and in the end, the same ISK made now has lower purchasing power than couple of years back. |
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Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:08:46 -
[11] - Quote
Tom Marksson wrote:This update is horrible. If I fly a ship that costs 3 or even 25 billion ISK, I must be able to make much more profit than I could do on a 500 mil Rattlsnake. Because there's one universal rule: I risk to lose my carrier/supercarrier to a first interceptor/cyno-Sabre while farming in null-sec, that's why I must receive an adequate amount of ISK to reimburse the loss, for example. If I don't - what's the point to undock a super? What's the point to have a super? What's the point to learn a super? What's the point to have a separate account for a capital-holder?.. What's the point to have capitals and supercapitals in game? Let's remove all of them and fly in small-scale frigate gangs. Why don't you in addition make capitals and supercapitals 50% cheaper to restore (what do you call it?) the "balance"?
No you cant simply make more money with bigger ships indefinitely. It would ruin the game economy if more people did it and prices of everything would skyrocket, making people who dont use your method of ISK generating effectively poor and not being able to afford anything, for example PLEX. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:12:23 -
[12] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:JC Mieyli wrote: so in short all this does is make isk scarcer and more valuable
Go to the last economic blog, read the isk faucet figure. Then also realise that as of I think it was Feb 92% of all bounties come from Null Sec. Now finally look at the slope of the isk graph in the last month. Now apply some basic common sense, realise that the isk faucet figure jumped hugely when the carrier change went through and has been hidden for a few months by other circumstance such as the change in what defines 'active' isk, and accounts leaving again after the sudden spike when they returned. This will only slow down the recent inflation, not stop it by any means, plenty of isk will still be farmed in null and plenty of that from carriers. sure thats what im saying but to somehow translate that into a decrease in plex prices is erroneous imo
In open economy like in EVE, if everyone buying PLEX has less money, PLEX price will go down. Sellers will still want to sell it, supply is probably quite constant, but since buyers only have limited ISK, the sellers will have to reduce the price to sell their PLEX. Its really just simple economics and it does work statistically.
Still, I am not agreeing with Fighter damage nerf, PVP should not be nerfed at all! Rats should be harder to kill with fighters and anoms should not be AFK doable. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
16
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:18:55 -
[13] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:In open economy like in EVE, if everyone buying PLEX has less money, PLEX price will go down. Sellers will still want to sell it, supply is probably quite constant, but since buyers only have limited ISK, the sellers will have to reduce the price to sell their PLEX. Its really just simple economics and it does work statistically. well its not as simple as you make it sound when you have people investing in assets then the value of those assets increases as a result of ccp meddling with mineral values nerfing mining and then nerfing ratting income those people with large stockpiles of assetts only see their wealth increase for no reason other than ccp messing with things and those people will continue to stockpile plex intil demand for plex decreases and im sure you can figure out what a decrease in demand for plex means
Demand for PLEX will only go down if people stop playing. And price of stockpiles going up is bad in any way? The stockpiles will run out eventually, if its profitable for the owners to turn them into ISK. Then the ISK can go into circulation and into ISK sinks. Overall good. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
16
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:24:11 -
[14] - Quote
I would really like to know, if all these people saying "I am unsubing", "I am canceling my accounts" really go and do it, or just try to take CCP hostage |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:33:37 -
[15] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:Demand for PLEX will only go down if people stop playing. And price of stockpiles going up is bad in any way? The stockpiles will run out eventually, if its profitable for the owners to turn them into ISK. Then the ISK can go into circulation and into ISK sinks. Overall good. yep decrease in demand means decrease in playerbase the stockpiles wont run out because they are being hoarded people buy them off the market and sit on them like bars of gold they like seeing their wealth increase people with wealth dont stockpile isk they stockpile plex when the demand for plex decreases then the value of plex will decrease thats when hoarders will start to panic and start offloading their plex until that happens they will hoard it and not sell it
Lets summarize it.
The only way to get PLEX into the game is to buy it for RL money. The rate for that is probably quite constant. Demand for PLEX is also constant at a constant playerbase. The only variable is how much ISK the PLEX consts and amount of ISK in the economy is affecting that. More ISK players hold -> they can easily buy PLEX -> PLEX price goes up until it stabilizes when people are not willing to pay that much for PLEX anymore. Less ISK -> they buy PLEX less for a while until sellers put PLEX on the market cheaper to sell it at a constant rate -> the trade stabilizes itself again.
So, removing or adding ISK faucets into the game only moves actual purchasing power of ISK up or down, supply or demand of PLEX is quite constant.
The problem here is the devaluation of ISK, when group of players generate way too much of it. Players who do not generate that much then suffer and are poor. And its getting worse, when ISK sinks do not remove the excess ISK from game. Its quite complicated, thats why they have economist in the team. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:37:59 -
[16] - Quote
Lhord GankBang wrote:What if I told you, you can nerf the insane ticks by simply not allowing carriers to warp to the anoms? Not making them entirely useless and just large drone boats that have slightly better DPS than an Ishtar.
Imagine the rage IMO it should just be less effective, but nerf should only affect fighters vs rats, not PVP aspect. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:39:56 -
[17] - Quote
Krypleria wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:JC Mieyli wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:Demand for PLEX will only go down if people stop playing. And price of stockpiles going up is bad in any way? The stockpiles will run out eventually, if its profitable for the owners to turn them into ISK. Then the ISK can go into circulation and into ISK sinks. Overall good. yep decrease in demand means decrease in playerbase the stockpiles wont run out because they are being hoarded people buy them off the market and sit on them like bars of gold they like seeing their wealth increase people with wealth dont stockpile isk they stockpile plex when the demand for plex decreases then the value of plex will decrease thats when hoarders will start to panic and start offloading their plex until that happens they will hoard it and not sell it Lets summarize it. The only way to get PLEX into the game is to buy it for RL money. The rate for that is probably quite constant. Demand for PLEX is also constant at a constant playerbase. The only variable is how much ISK the PLEX costs and amount of ISK in the economy is affecting that. More ISK players hold -> they can easily buy PLEX -> PLEX price goes up until it stabilizes when people are not willing to pay that much for PLEX anymore. Less ISK -> they buy PLEX less for a while until sellers put PLEX on the market cheaper to sell it at a constant rate -> the trade stabilizes itself again. So, removing or adding ISK faucets into the game only moves actual purchasing power of ISK up or down, supply or demand of PLEX is quite constant. The problem here is the devaluation of ISK, when group of players generate way too much of it. Players who do not generate that much then suffer and are poor. And its getting worse, when ISK sinks do not remove the excess ISK from game. Scissors are opening wider. Its quite complicated, thats why they have economist in the team. True... but guess what... these changes dont affect ISK sinks in any way .... so maybe they should put those econimists to actually PLAY the game to understand it ?
'Well they decrase the ISK faucet. That is the second way to deal with the problem. While this change is strange to me and it SHOULD NOT affect PVP IMO, the ratting overall needs a nerf. Or they should just increase the transaction tax even more I guess to buff the ISK sink. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:41:40 -
[18] - Quote
JC Mieyli wrote:Faruzen en Divalone wrote:Less ISK -> they buy PLEX less for a while until sellers put PLEX on the market cheaper to sell it at a constant rate -> the trade stabilizes itself again. youre forgetting one important factor remember why we said demand decreases in the first place in your example you assume there will be players to buy it once the price stabilises again however we know the only reason the demand decreases is because there will be less players around to buy it
The demand is constant, I dont see legions of players leaving the game anytime soon. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:42:47 -
[19] - Quote
iFars wrote:The government is concerned that people have begun to live better? Get out of office.
Actually they dont live better. They live worse in fact. Having more ISK is nice, but the VALUE of ISK is going down. YOur purchasing power is going down. And people not ratting in carriers or supers would gradually get poorer and poorer, because their ISK will have lesser value. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 13:44:20 -
[20] - Quote
James Kestrel wrote:Do you really think this change will raise sales of Plex? This changes will not fix economy, it will only raise gap between rich and poor players, like always. Did you consider full server wipe? Maybe it will help.
You should nerf all that smartbombers and afk VNI/Ishtar ratters... they are big issue, not carriers or supers.
Full server wipe. I WOULD SOOO LOVE THAT !!
But its a dream that cant come true I guess :/ |
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Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2017.06.09 17:05:29 -
[21] - Quote
Ida Aurlien wrote:1 you train for say cruisers they nerf them
2 you train pi they change it
3 you train for pirate ships they change them
4 you train for logi they change it
5 you train for whatever they change it and add more to get to the same level
6 you train carriers They change it
7 you train fighters they change it and add new skills
8 you train t3's they nerf them
My thoughts are if your building a game with a base of people you would think some add ons and deletes threw time but a constant change is frustrating. You just get to a point where you feel good with the game and you kill it or destroy it. I had been feeling tired of the game on a personal level. but was ok with continually subbing gonna start getting ready to call it what it is tho. As this never ends and 20% nerf when a couple cruisers can kill a carrier. something is wrong with this picture. That's like being able to bump kill a freighter with a cat ....stupid.. game you would think has some parameters that would fit like frigates 2 to kill a cruiser or a bs maybe 4 to kill etc but when you can have more dps from a bs than a carrier it does not fit, sorry. I realize this is a game but when you constantly change the Bar or parameters you destroy the goal and game. good job ccp you have made my mind up for me
Then dont train what is currently BEST and objectivly OP. It will get nerfed. However, PVP damage of carriers should NOT be nerfed, thats for sure. |
Faruzen en Divalone
Black Wings Syndicate
18
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Posted - 2017.06.09 17:08:48 -
[22] - Quote
People should really learn something about game economy. Ship destryed actually generates ISK, its not ISK sink. Real ISK sinks are not obvious.
Real ISK sinks are where ISK dissapears to the system:
Transaction Tax Ship Repair LP store ISK prices Expired insurances
etc... |
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