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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
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Posted - 2017.07.17 16:30:10 -
[1] - Quote
If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.
But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.17 20:48:13 -
[2] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Scialt wrote:If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.
But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell. Go read the sticky and then slap yourself.
In a redundant thread, I don't see a problem posting the redundant solution that I prefer.
some other redundant answers that get posted to redundant OP's 'all the time:
"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." "Minerals you mine yourself are not free." ".01 isk station traders are mostly not bots." "Get gud."
So... yeah, there should be an afk logoff mechanism. Has that been posted before? Yep. Is it still the best answer to AFK... anything (mining/cloaked camping/whatever).... yep.
I didn't raise the topic. But it is still the best answer in my opinion.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
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Posted - 2017.07.18 15:00:58 -
[3] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.
All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.
If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.
If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?
As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well.
I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
190
|
Posted - 2017.07.18 20:44:33 -
[4] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly. Emergency cyno alts. Dodging a war dec. Watching a worm hole entrance / exit. Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole. And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children. All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes. If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout. If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there? As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well. I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. And I can set up something to do it for me. As it does not allow me to acquire any advantage other than staying logged in, it is not in violation of the EULA.
I could be wrong but I had always thought any botting was a violation of the EULA "under any circumstances."
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
191
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Posted - 2017.07.19 15:50:48 -
[5] - Quote
"Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with."
I don't really care about the safety... I prefer to actually play a MMO with other actual PEOPLE rather than an empty chair. I'm fine with you dropping on me. I enjoy the risk of EVE. I just want the other characters to be PRESENT. I don't think that's a big ask.
"Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?"
What effort? I just want you to be present. Heck, ideally activity in ANY eve window open would satisfy the activity for all. I don't care what you do... I just want to play a game with other players. Not your empty chair. I'm good with both evading droppers and baiting them... but it's freaking annoying to try to do that when there isn't an actual person on the other side.
"How about that trip to relieve oneself, or do you propose the we urinate or defecate into a bottle or pan we keep at our computers simply so we can be there to deal with your auto log off idea?"
First of all... if you take 20 minutes to do your business in the bathroom... you've got other issues. Second... who cares if you get logged off? You just log back in when you come back and cloak up. You weren't going to be able to do anything until you come back from your dump anyway.
"And what about that phone call, you know that one from your mom, sister whatever that keeps you away from the computer listening to all the latest family gossip or other useless crap just long enough to get booted by the log off timer?"
You log back in when you're done. Again... what's the big deal?
"EvE on the other hand has never had an auto log off "feature" so this would represent a major change."
Actually... it current has an automatic logoff. It's called "amount of time until downtime". Our maximum inactive time is 23 hours and change. What I'm suggesting is lowering that maximum time.
"I guess the most important question here is simply this. Interact to cancel the auto log off or move to another system. Both require about the same amount of effort, as one that is cloaky camping your system and I am active at the keyboard why do I have to deal with this annoying log off timer crap when you can simply move to another system?"
I'd say the most important question is if a MMO should ensure that the other logged in players are actually people you can interact with in the game... or if it's okay with having one side attempt to interact with an empty chair.... which is not exactly interesting game play.
"Here we go with the tired old crap of most games do xxxxx, well EvE is not like "most" games and you better get used to that fact . CCP does not do things like "most " games and no auto log off is one of those things they do differently. "
So... it's a good idea because CCP has always done it that way? That's the argument?
Look... multiplayer games exist in order to allow players to engage in playing with other players. I WANT you to drop on me when I'm ratting. I want you to try to catch me in a trap. I enjoy the feeling I get from escaping or baiting you. And the fact I might not escape adds excitement to my game play. But for that to happen... you have to be PRESENT.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
192
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Posted - 2017.07.19 20:44:31 -
[6] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
193
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Posted - 2017.07.20 13:51:35 -
[7] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?
As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.
And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty? Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one. I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty." And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too.
No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Your basic idea is this.
You have multiple sessions up. You see the flashing "You are afk and will be logged off in two minutes due to inactivity" message. You hear an audible clue that indicates one of your sessions is about to be logged off. You're still going to do nothing let the session be logged off... and whine about it?
If that's the case... the player's brain being empty is just as much a problem as the chair being empty. They were being told that a session was about to be logged and chose not to do anything. Either that or they didn't notice... which is effectively the SAME as the chair being empty. That session had no human mind doing anything with it or even watching it. It's an empty chair either way.
Why on earth are you so set on being able to stay logged in on an account you are not playing, are not looking and are not even listening for audible alerts from? That session is an empty chair. Log it to use it when you want to... you know... USE IT.
There's no adverse impact. At all. You can still log into an account when you need to use it. And if you're not using it... there's no need to keep it logged in. Nothing is preventing you from using as many accounts as you like... as long as you USE THEM. Your definition of being adversely impacted is incredibly petty.
And if you want to whine about the sticky thread... feel free to reply to me there. I'm responding to your comments. My response is going to go where the comments are made. If you me to quit responding to you here... don't post here. Or quit moaning about the sticky thread if you aren't willing to post your responses there.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
193
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Posted - 2017.07.20 13:55:25 -
[8] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Scialt wrote:Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.
Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.
I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.
As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.
Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.
And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions. So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?
Chatting is activity.
Clicking on the screen without actually doing anything is activity.
Moving your mouse while the window is active is activity.
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
If you aren't actually going to interact with the game client and just want to chat with corpmates in slack or discord or TS... why log into the game? You aren't playing it.
If you're messing with skill queues, using chat windows or doing literally ANYTHING that requires the client to be open... you're active.
This is pretty common in how MMO's work so you don't see a thousand "statues" in the game. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
|
Posted - 2017.07.20 15:33:02 -
[9] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us. One last go at getting you to understand. On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them. Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it. Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in. And the list goes on. All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE.
So... your entire argument is now limited to....
an emergency cyno character.
So let's delve into that.
You have an account that is not being used that you want to be sitting in space and it's too much work for you to simply click on the window or alt-tab over to the client for that character once in a 20 minute window to keep it from logging off.
You honestly don't have time for a single click in 20 minutes? Whining about having to click a window once every 20 minutes frankly sounds weaker than whining about wanting to ensure that actual players are present when you see a character in game.
I will say that my fleet combat experience doesn't reach the larger TiDi fights... but most of mine have a pretty meaningful amount of downtime, regardless of if I'm running logistics, scouting or flying a main-line ship. I mostly use my second account to have something to do during those downtimes. I can't think of a time where I didn't click over to that screen over a 20 minute period. If I have time to click over and adjust market entries while in a small 10-man fleet, I assume that the larger slower moving fleets would have even more time to kill.
It literally takes less than a second to alt-tab to your other account, click the chat window and alt-tab back.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
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Posted - 2017.07.20 17:57:22 -
[10] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:
Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.
How nice of you to define activity to support your position. I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make. Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness. Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front.
It's not activity.
Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game.
Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic?
As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client.
Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client). |
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
194
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Posted - 2017.07.20 17:59:02 -
[11] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.
It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK.
I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
196
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Posted - 2017.07.21 15:07:16 -
[12] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Scialt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.
Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.
At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game. It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK. I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair. Either way you gain information...so what...you should have things made easier for you?
Because it's a MMO.
massively mulitPLAYER
key-word... player. Not bot. Not empty-chair. Player.
It's not about 'easy'. It's about a game based on having a massive amount of players ensuring that players are actually present. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
196
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Posted - 2017.07.21 15:11:27 -
[13] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way. My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment. Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly. "He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems." Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution. But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not.
I do treat all cloaked ships as active.
I find it annoying when I go through the trouble of doing that and NOBODY IS FREAKING THERE.
See my point?
I'm TRYING to give you target. I WANT you to shoot at my ship. I'm actively trying to play a multiplayer game with other players. I am making every effort to create content. But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.
I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
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Posted - 2017.07.21 15:19:26 -
[14] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.
Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.
I've never seen Eve's code... but I have a hard time believing that a player logged in does not impact server resources. It may be a small enough impact to not matter, but a player simply being in a system will have some actual impact on the performance of others in the system, even if they are doing nothing. Any time you do something in the game that requires the server to report back to your client on the other players present... the number of said players will impact the time taken for that call.
CCP can tell us that having 1000 AFK cloaked ships in a system has a negligible impact and I'm going to believe them. If they say it has no impact I'm going to try to get them to show me their code so I can figure out how to do that trick in my work.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
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Posted - 2017.07.21 15:28:58 -
[15] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.
Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.
You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.
Why are you not understanding this point?
Because it's not a point.
This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game.
Not taking an action = no activity.
I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
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Posted - 2017.07.24 13:06:02 -
[16] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Scialt wrote:But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.
I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair. I tire of people like you, people that are so desperate to prove a point that you will twist the words of others to suit your agenda. The record as witnessed by this thread will prove that I never said I was reading this AND playing EvE and that is good enough for me. However since you have now proven that you are at the point where you are willing to purposely twist others words I am done with this discussion and as my parting words I leave these things. Auto log off timers are idiotic and should be removed from ALL computer games. If I want to spend my money to pay for a game I should be able to sit and do NOTHING if that is what I choose to do. If my sitting logged into a game doing nothing bothers or offends you that is your problem not mine or the game companies. The very nature of EvE as a single thread, persistent simulation of what our futures might hold would be harmed irreparably with the addition of auto log off timers and I for one hope that CCP continues to resist call from people like you to add them.As others have stated because of the free intel local offers (knowing who is in system with you) and AFK cloaking is the only partial counter we have to that free intel then AFK cloaking needs to stay in the game. See next please they are related. Auto log off timers would remove about 90% of the effectiveness of cloaky camping, and given that cloaky camping is the only counter we have to the free intel offered by local auto log off timers would be a really bad thing for EvE. And last. The mental anguish, stess and hassles that AFK cloaky campers cause to pampered and entitled nul sec players like you OP are perhaps the very best reason to leave the out of the game.
I have to laugh at the bolded part.
So you think a good simulation of a future where people aren't actually paying attention... to... their... actual... bodies?
Ooookaaayyyy....
Look, it's a game. It's a game designed around interaction between multiple players. In order for that interaction to happen... players need to be present... not away from their keyboard.
I want cloaked droppers to scout out my ratting or mining ship and determine if I'm bait or not. My entire goal from this is to actually promote interaction. The only thing I'm asking is that you actually be present at your keyboard... so my tasty bait has a chance of being bitten.
I'm sorry... I think that an actual PLAYER should be required for a Massively Multi-PLAYER game. You seem to want to have one where the "player" part is optional. I think that is a immensely stupid opinion. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
199
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Posted - 2017.07.24 13:11:41 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.
I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.
But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.
I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm asking for.
It's a PvP area. I'm present... I'm the fist "Player" in PvP. What I'm asking is that the other person also be present. What we're getting now is a lot of PvEC (player vs empty chair). They don't have to take the bait. They can passively watch local while active watching a movie... just clicking on the screen every few minutes. But I want them to at least be there for my attempts at interaction to have some chance of success. I got no shot with an empty chair. |
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