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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:11:00 -
[1]
Please read the whole tread before replaying, please do not troll, flame, spam or use inappropriate languish, everything you say that do not follow the eula or in any way breaks the forum rules will not be a cause of this tread, by replaying on this tread you agree to this:
Devs and gm is a necessarily for the game, they do a good job keeping the server free for exploiters cheaters hackers and other people that will make harm on the paying costumers game time. The devs make a good job developing new stuff, correcting bugs and making sure everything is balanced out so that you can have fun.
This is why we are paying them for their very nice service and help.
Now what happens when a gm or a dev joins in the game and start getting involved in the playing of the game instead of doing it as an enjoyable job?
Well as any other person would, you will do whatever you can to help out your own corp and alliance, which is a good thing because every one should do what they can for there own corps and alliance. The devÆs and gm makes sure that whatever you do, you canÆt break the rules that is in the game to make it fair for every one, which is a good thing because then you donÆt have hackers doing something that will give an unfair advantage, and the devs and gmÆs is doing a good job making sure that our money are getting us the service we deserve.
This is where the problem comes in, because when a dev or a gm joins the game as a player that dev or gm is like a ôGodö joining the war, and of course they want to do the best for there own alliance or corp, but when a God joins in then the game gets unbalanced and the one that should make sure this isnÆt happening is that God itself which of course will not stop itself, this gives an unfair advantage and suddenly the service we are paying for is no longer a ôsure thingö and the god have forgotten itÆs purpose and thereby forgotten why it was set there.
We all know of those things that have been happening where gmÆs or devs have gone in and broken their purpose to help out BoB with there godly powers. And we only know of those times where the God have failed to keep it a secret.
Well I would say that this is the biggest growing problem in this universe of EVE.
I do not think that the devs or gm should be joining the game as gamers, since this is something that will without doubt only do something bad for the gamers, it will unbalance and destroy the very concept the game was made upon.
So here is my vote. I say that devÆs and gmÆs should not be allowed to be in the game as gamers since they fail to do their jobs which we are paying for while involving themselves personally in the outcome of the ingame politics. A god should watch and create, not be the one doing running the show amongst the players and doing the stuff.
So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for.
Cots.
Ps: this is a vote and a discussing there is NO reasonable explanation to close this tread or ban me from either forum or game for taking this discussion and vote up, which you as the devÆs and as the people we are paying to provide us a service that some of your staff members are clearly not competent to withhold, should listen to and do what is right and logic.
___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:13:00 -
[2]
Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for.
The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. ---------
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Shinris
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:14:00 -
[4]
i agree to the OP on this matter since they don't seem to be able to controll it. if you can't controll it you shouldn't be allowed to do it
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Aqwis Silaman
Caldari The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:15:00 -
[5]
I agree with Cypherous - a game where the developers have no insight in how their game works as a player is not a good game. As long as they don't have too many in one corporation or alliance i'm perfectly fine with the developers playing the game even in 0.0 alliances. --- L¦G1T1M+T3 N1G3R1+N BUS1N3SSM+N |
CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game.
why?!
Originally by: Cypherous
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for.
The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools.
the problem is that they can't controll the tools when they are ingame as players. and in any other mmo they do just fine by seeing, listening and testing, in eve they unbalance the players by doing stuff that they are not suppose to, using there godlike powers in a nonacceptable way.
there would be no problem for them developing the game without having to be a part of the ingame politic's.
so i do not see the reason for them to be here?. they don't add anything to the game that we couldn't do ourselves. but they put in a element that is really bad which would not be here if they didn't play it as players but only as dev/gms ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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The Pointless
Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 -
[7]
And how exactly do you expect them to improve the game when all they have is the word of the players and no hands-on experience of whatever needs improvement?
Sure, Devs and GMs playing the game as players runs the risk of temptation setting in and whatnot, can you honestly say you haven't been tempted to commit any wrongdoing in your job? In your everyday life? Eh?
The Devs and GMs have just as much right to play this game as players, just the same as the paying customers. One measly incident and some (as yet unproven - just wait, will you?) allegations are going to change my opinion on it.
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"And I scream in a thousand voices!" |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 -
[8]
Yes they should. Even if only so they can enjoy Eve too.
99% of the 'issues' that have actually resulted in action on CCP's behalf involve players exploiting the game. 0.9% involve volunteers and maybe 0.1% involve employees.
So, don't worry this much. If the 0.1% gains even a fractionally better understanding of their game that they can apply to battling the 99% you're winning.
note: these stats are entirely made up of course, as all stats on the internet are. The gist of the argumetn should be clear to anyone that's outgrown the foetal stage however.
[center] Old blog |
Sathamarid
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 -
[9]
No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest.
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Larg Kellein
Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:22:00 -
[10]
Devs and GMs, in particular devs, need to play the game to understand the implication of game changes in a real environment. Yes, there has to be sanctions for abuse of power or inside knowledge, but only the most dimwitted would risk his job for his player character. And we don't need dimwits playing the game, let alone developing it. So as long as there are repurcussions for cheating, for players and devs alike, we're good.
Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:24:00 -
[11]
the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance.
and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary
Originally by: The Pointless And how exactly do you expect them to improve the game when all they have is the word of the players and no hands-on experience of whatever needs improvement?
Sure, Devs and GMs playing the game as players runs the risk of temptation setting in and whatnot, can you honestly say you haven't been tempted to commit any wrongdoing in your job? In your everyday life? Eh?
The Devs and GMs have just as much right to play this game as players, just the same as the paying customers. One measly incident and some (as yet unproven - just wait, will you?) allegations are going to change my opinion on it.
___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:25:00 -
[12]
1.) This isn't our call to make. Just because we pay x amount a month to play the game, doesn't give us the right to set policy. And no, the customer isn't always right. 2.) Eve-online isn't like your regular commercial MMO, you just can't replace an Eve dev with someone that isn't intimately familiar with the game (and you can't be that without playing it). When you stop playing the game when you become a dev, you'll loose touch with the game (and that is bad for us). 3.) The current devs are motivated by three things: a.) love of the game, b.) beer, and c.) money (in that order). Hiring capable devs that are alright with not playing the game are going to be motivated by more money. Would you be willing to spend more a month on eve, so that we don't have devs playing the game?
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Angel Devereux
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:26:00 -
[13]
I would vote yes, they should be allowed to have accounts in game. There's been one incident, and it's been dealt with. What I see now is a bunch of people who look at BOB and think that it's all due to someone giving them everything because they have something you want. Nevermind that they have been one of the biggest groups around for quite a while.
I've done development work (not in games), and the worst work has been on applications that I had no real understanding of the use of. My best work, on the other hand, has been on applications that I saw a use for in my own experiences.
I'm not a friend of BOB here, and I'm not a dev for any game.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest.
finally some non bob-pet/alts answers ;)
Originally by: Larg Kellein Devs and GMs, in particular devs, need to play the game to understand the implication of game changes in a real environment. Yes, there has to be sanctions for abuse of power or inside knowledge, but only the most dimwitted would risk his job for his player character. And we don't need dimwits playing the game, let alone developing it. So as long as there are repurcussions for cheating, for players and devs alike, we're good.
well even so they don't lose there job by doing this EVEN if they get cought their is no real risk for doing so and the properbillity of beeing cought is VERY small since it's them running the checks on who is cheating and doing stuff.
there is no reason for them to participate in a alliance longtime as a gamer, they could whenever it was needed make up a char and participate in any fight with one on each side to test how it works, this would not have any effect on the players, or make a corp for PURE gm/devs (maybe a few testers that was tempararely just to test things out.
i see no logic in having gms and dev's in Bob+pets spawning isk, npc's, getting inside info, etc etc and all the things they have done that is totally unacceptable. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars why?!
Im all for personal accounts being on the main server, devs/ISD/GM's... why should they have to quit playing the game they love just to work on it. Not only that but I want them working on it, that way they know when there is imbalance or issues.
What I dont support is Dev accounts on the main server. Thats where all the abuse is happening, xxx member is playing their personal account... something goes wrong, well hell i will log in my dev acct and fix it, ship replaced, bpo respawned in hanger... That is the sort of thing we cant have happening.
Try playing the game for 4 years and building an alliance your tied to, then start working for the company who makes the game you love soooo much, and tell me its easy not to want to cheat, even just a little bit. I know for damn sure i would try as hard as i could but i could see myself slipping up.
They are human, and should be treated as such, mistakes will happen.
Recruiting Terrorists |
QwaarJet
Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:31:00 -
[16]
I vote devs and gms should be banned from having accounts. It's the only sensible way forward, unless CCP actually do like looking like corrupt prats in the media.
"Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!" |
Fwuffy Wabbit
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:33:00 -
[17]
How about restricting all ccp employees/helpers chars & their alts etc to corporations that do not belong to an alliance, thus negating any possible bias.
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The Pointless
Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance.
and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary
Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident - and from what I read, only one Dev was responsible? Hmmm? Secondly, the current allegations are still being investigated. We. Know. Nothing. Yet.
Now that that's out of the way...
Whether it was intended or not, you managed to dodge my question on temptation.
OK, say you were working at a local corner shop. The owner has to bugger off to the cash-n-carry for stuff every Friday, leaving you to hold the fort for a couple of hours. Alone. There's already a shedload of cash in the till.
Can you truly say that you would NOT be tempted to swipe a bit of that cash and go spend it on something, or build up the stolen cash over time to get that HD-ready TV you always wanted?
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"And I scream in a thousand voices!" |
Mogrin
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:34:00 -
[19]
No, they can't handle it apparently. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion |
Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fwuffy Wabbit How about restricting all ccp employees/helpers chars & their alts etc to corporations that do not belong to an alliance, thus negating any possible bias.
How would they ever know if there are bugs, issues or improvements that could be made to the way alliances run, work, own and manage things?
Relying on volunteer bug hunters alone is a bad idea.
Recruiting Terrorists |
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cergorach 1.) This isn't our call to make. Just because we pay x amount a month to play the game, doesn't give us the right to set policy. And no, the customer isn't always right. 2.) Eve-online isn't like your regular commercial MMO, you just can't replace an Eve dev with someone that isn't intimately familiar with the game (and you can't be that without playing it). When you stop playing the game when you become a dev, you'll loose touch with the game (and that is bad for us). 3.) The current devs are motivated by three things: a.) love of the game, b.) beer, and c.) money (in that order). Hiring capable devs that are alright with not playing the game are going to be motivated by more money. Would you be willing to spend more a month on eve, so that we don't have devs playing the game?
when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) i am not saying that they shouldn't play the game, but that they should NOT be in it as a player, but only as a dev or gm as we are paying them and exspecting them to do.
and EVE is one of the most cash making mmo's out right now, so stop the "you will pay more tiptip thing.. because its not true"
Originally by: Angel Devereux .
please don't post with alt ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Bullitnutz
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 -
[22]
No, it's a conflict of interest.
If you don't like the damn job, there are plenty others where you don't have dev/GM/ISD abilities, then you can play EVE.
Sure, goonswarm blah blah blah, there's a reason we don't ALLOW anyone other than a regular player with no special ties to CCP in our alliance. That reason is legitimacy.
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 -
[23]
Yes, they should play the game imo. You cant reproduce things on test server as you can see on live one. You can run thousand tests, and then in certain live situation it will all act different.
Moreover, I would say that any mechanism can have hm...downsides? You cant create a perfect one. I can say that at the very least, devs do pretty much good job on the game, you may as well turn your views on other games when stuff added with no player-support to it, stuff changed without explnations, stuff buffed/nerfed without listening to player-base. Beleive me, each game has those above things, EVE to my view so far, got none of those. Ships & Modules prove it more then I can say. ---
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:37:00 -
[24]
OFC they should play the game
They should just implement better countermeasures procedures to what happned recently -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
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Gudrun Hart
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:39:00 -
[25]
Yes, they should.
It helps to develop EvE and that is more importand then 1 or 2 stupid actions by Dev or GM in 3 or 4 Years.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 27/05/2007 20:34:25
Originally by: CrestoftheStars the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance.
and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary
Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident - and from what I read, only one Dev was responsible? Hmmm? Secondly, the current allegations are still being investigated. We. Know. Nothing. Yet.
Now that that's out of the way...
Whether it was intended or not, you managed to dodge my question on temptation.
OK, say you were working at a local corner shop. The owner has to bugger off to the cash-n-carry for stuff every Friday, leaving you to hold the fort for a couple of hours. Alone. There's already a shedload of cash in the till.
Can you truly say that you would NOT be tempted to swipe a bit of that cash and go spend it on something, or build up the stolen cash over time to get that HD-ready TV you always wanted?
Originally by: CrestoftheStars finally some non bob-pet/alts answers ;)
And FYI, I am no BoB-pet. I've never met any of them ingame and the only contact I've had with any BoB-member is through these very forums, thankyouverymuch.
first of how hard is it to actually get them to ADMIT it?! they arn't even willing to admit that it's there bad server setup that's coursing lag. so if they admit it, it's apparently quite a big problem they run into and something they couldn't hide.
if you read instead of just writing you would see that i did NOT avoid your quition and i gave it a straight answer. and as you say the tamptetion is big WHICH is WHY it makes no sense giving them such a high tamptetion right under there noise. and one more reason that they should not be playing as gamers along side with the normal gamers. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Zaethiel
Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for.
By playing the game they get to know their own game from a players point of view. My experience has been that if the devs are intricately involved in all aspects of the game the better the game. In other MMOs ive played ive known devs to play only PvE aspects and in those games there will be PvP problems even though the game has a massive PvP aspect.
In short if the devs didnt play the same game they developed alot then the game would lack alot because they wouldnt be able to see first hand where they can improve upon the game and what needs fixing the most.
The problem begins when Devs abuse their power. In MMOs they could tell their friends about classified up coming patches, insider trading in a sense where they can use that information to profit greatly off an investment. I used to do that myself Alpha testing games for their upcoming patches. Another way would be for them to physically spawn/create/give/manufacture something for himself or for someone else using out of game mechanics.
Id have to say even if devs didnt play some of these things would still happen regardless. As long as the company watches for these things and catches/punishes people for doing it, then we gain far more by the devs first hand experiencing the game as everyone else does. _________________________________________
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Hypatia Iola
Caldari Central Defiance Terror In The System
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 -
[28]
as far as i'm concerned, what the ISD/Devs/whoever do when they're not on the job is none o my business, HOWEVER, it's ludicrous for them to actually be able to have upgraded accounts, the GM accounts and Dev accounts shouldn't be played like the rest of the game, it should be a maintenance deal. when they're not on the clock, they can have accounts just like everyone else, and that's fine. all anyone wants is for there not to be a Good Ol' Boy's Network going on...
I represent only my own views, they just happen to be the right ones. |
Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:43:00 -
[29]
Yes I think it is extremely important that the developers play their own game. It is the only way for them to truly get to know the issues with in their game. the stipulation should be that they play on CCP sponsored accounts so they can be monitored.
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The Pointless
Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars if you read instead of just writing you would see that i did NOT avoid your quition and i gave it a straight answer.
I did read your answer actually, but your answer was about the Devs' jobs as opposed to your own job, as per the question.
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"And I scream in a thousand voices!" |
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