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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.05 11:15:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Aramendel on 05/06/2007 11:16:07 Personally I would happily exchange the nos strength bonus for the nos range bonus on the pilgrim though.
Range >> strength IMO.
The nos strength bonus is for all intents and purposes a dps bonus. At least if you are in a situation where your targets cap will run dry before it's HP are reduced to zero (aka not in a large gang).
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TheOgreTorix
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:34:00 -
[32]
I wasn't suggesting that it actually take place, I was just commenting on how the OP wanted the bonuses to be like the other recons and that is what they would look like. IMHO the nerf bat needs to be broken I like eve just the way it is. Though I really wouldn't mind a personal I win button that no one else gets
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.06.05 15:44:00 -
[33]
i didnt word my arguement the best i could have, but i think i got my point across.
devs, pilgrim kthksmoocholubo --------------------------
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
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Posted - 2007.06.08 05:25:00 -
[34]
nos nerf + cloak nerf = Pilgrim sucks.
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 06:50:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Phelan Lore on 08/06/2007 06:49:03 OMGZ my vagabond can't cloak, it sucks. PLZ GIVSE MY VAGABOND CLOAKS KTHXS.
aslo it shuold go FASTER.
Do you realize how unbalanced the pilgram would be with a range bonus? -
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Sailon
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Posted - 2007.06.08 07:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Phelan Lore Edited by: Phelan Lore on 08/06/2007 06:49:03 OMGZ my vagabond can't cloak, it sucks. PLZ GIVSE MY VAGABOND CLOAKS KTHXS.
aslo it shuold go FASTER.
Do you realize how unbalanced the pilgram would be with a range bonus?
it would take longer to shrink enemys cap empty
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Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2007.06.08 07:44:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Garia666
whine, whine, whine...
You even quoted "more content" as a misgiving against CCP. I suggest we get rid of unecessary content. Like, forum whiners. Most of the changes I've seen go live on TQ were for the better. Balancing & adding new things is a dynamic process - after you introduce something new, it's typically not in line with the existing things. So, people whine (with reason). Then it gets balanced ("nerfed"), and people whine some more, and so on. But it does look like the they're converging to some sort of balance.
By the way, it's not "lagg", "en", "epxloits", and so on, and you have -no- way of telling that specialised NOS ships will be crap after Rev 2. Are specialised ECM ships crap after the ECM nerf?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.17 09:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 05/06/2007 11:16:07 Personally I would happily exchange the nos strength bonus for the nos range bonus on the pilgrim though.
Range >> strength IMO.
The nos strength bonus is for all intents and purposes a dps bonus. At least if you are in a situation where your targets cap will run dry before it's HP are reduced to zero (aka not in a large gang).
Agree fully. Its quite obvious wich bonus is the "damage" bonus. Its not the range bonus, its the nos/neut strength bonus. The bonuses are wrong on the pilgrim and its quite friggin obvious.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Delictum 23216
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Posted - 2007.10.17 10:14:00 -
[39]
I think that I would also prefer a range bonus on the Pilgrim.
The reason is that as it is it doesn't fit in very well with the other Force recons in a combined Recon harassment team. Both of the more popular recons (Arazu and Rapier) uses range as their chosen method of defense. The pilgrim on the other hand has to get within 12km to use its NOS strength bonus.
A range bonus would give me a lot more flexibility in a gang situation. Especially if I'm going to use the "NOS target A, use energy from A to Neut target B" method. Which means I would finally be able to use NOS in a gang situation, instead of having to rely on tracking disruptors alone (turning it into a very expensive cloaking arbitrator). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: kill0rbunny That's hilarious. If you don't know how to fight using a pilgrim, use a domi instead. This ship is able to pick it's fights and eat most non-capital ships alive. No need boosting it.
You can beat any turret boat, of course it will take you 5 minutes to kill any turret BS, closer to 15 if they have an injector. That leaves them plenty of time to summon friends to come kill you.
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Sailon
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:15:00 -
[41]
give it bonus to tracking disrupter range to 150km then it would affect something
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:32:00 -
[42]
It is not about range or something...
Since the NOS nerf the Pilgrim heavily suffers due to a simple fact: To be effective, the Pilgrim needs to fit Neuts, but one NOS can not supply the Neuts. So as a matter of fact to maintain your cap "sucking advantage" (the Pilgrim's strength) you need a cap booster. Adding a cap booster made us loose a mid slot on Pilgrim.
Basically the NOS nerf took a mid slot of the Pilgrim and reduced effectiveness of one high slot (with one NOS fitted). Simple as that.
Keep in mind, that the Pilgrim already lacks due to one less high slot and due to less resists.
There are more solutions (alternatively): 1. One more mid and one more high slot. 2. Drastically increasing Pilgrim's cap by 50%. 3. Add 5%/level to cap recharge of Pilgrim. 4. Increase range of Neut/NOS on Pilgrim like on Curse. 5. Add a Neut bonus of 5% less cap usage of Neuts per recon level. 6. Increase the Neut/NOS drain amount of Pilgrim.
Adding range to the Pilgrim would also make it perfect against Nano ships, as a Pilgrim could drain the cap of one Nano ship in one cycle (like Curse does already). Looking at the amount of Nano ship this would be a bad thing/good thing depending on which side of the fence you are ;) __
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.17 12:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hydrogen It is not about range or something...
Since the NOS nerf the Pilgrim heavily suffers due to a simple fact: To be effective, the Pilgrim needs to fit Neuts, but one NOS can not supply the Neuts. So as a matter of fact to maintain your cap "sucking advantage" (the Pilgrim's strength) you need a cap booster. Adding a cap booster made us loose a mid slot on Pilgrim.
Basically the NOS nerf took a mid slot of the Pilgrim and reduced effectiveness of one high slot (with one NOS fitted). Simple as that.
Keep in mind, that the Pilgrim already lacks due to one less high slot and due to less resists.
There are more solutions (alternatively): 1. One more mid and one more high slot. 2. Drastically increasing Pilgrim's cap by 50%. 3. Add 5%/level to cap recharge of Pilgrim. 4. Increase range of Neut/NOS on Pilgrim like on Curse. 5. Add a Neut bonus of 5% less cap usage of Neuts per recon level. 6. Increase the Neut/NOS drain amount of Pilgrim.
Adding range to the Pilgrim would also make it perfect against Nano ships, as a Pilgrim could drain the cap of one Nano ship in one cycle (like Curse does already). Looking at the amount of Nano ship this would be a bad thing/good thing depending on which side of the fence you are ;)
Sure they'll unnerf pilgrim, just like they unnerfed lasers after the heatsink stack nerf...
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2007.10.17 13:14:00 -
[44]
Give the Pilgrim some range! Like all the other recons! -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The A in Amarr seems to stands for Adapt... |
Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.17 13:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Madla Mafia Give the Pilgrim some range! Like all the other recons!
The problem is if the strenght bonus is removed the pilgrim will even suck more then it currently does (well it won't suck as much cap which is exactly my point).
Every recon ship only uses modules which are size independant (scramblers/webbers/ecm/damps etc.). The curse/pilgrim on the other hand are the only ones expected to use a module specially made for cruiser sized targets (nos/neuts). Hence they won't ever drain as much cap as a battleship can, while an arazu with scramblers can scramble from futher away with the same strenght as a battleship.
Quite frankly the nos/neut bonus is TOTALLY not inline with the other recons. Pre nos-nerf the pilgrim could hold it's ground in solo-PvP but it always was crap at gang pvp compared to the other recons. It had a really good tank due to the extra cap from nos, now nos has been killed it's tank is dead and it isn't as good as it was solo.
The best solution in my opinion would be to revert the nos nerf on the pilgrim and curse, the only other solution I'm seeing is totally revamping the "ew" that amarr use. TD's are soso as secondary ECM (only ever so slightly better then a target painter bonus) but as primary ECM cap warfare just sucks donkey balls and is in all ways outclassed by every recon out there.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.10.17 13:48:00 -
[46]
Edited by: N1fty on 17/10/2007 13:49:12 Most people here are trying to compare the pilgrim with the other force recons. This is totally flawed thinking in my opinion, the ships have been designed to do different tasks.
I wont rabble on about these tasks, you just need to step out of your boxes.
Pilgrim still has its Tracking Disruption bonus, which IS useful in gangs, especially defending against Snipers and Nano's. People need to stop fixating on the nos/neut bonuses! ============================================
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.17 13:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 17/10/2007 13:49:12 Most people here are trying to compare the pilgrim with the other force recons. This is totally flawed thinking in my opinion, the ships have been designed to do different tasks.
I wont rabble on about these tasks, you just need to step out of your boxes.
Pilgrim still has its Tracking Disruption bonus, which IS useful in gangs, especially defending against Snipers and Nano's. People need to stop fixating on the nos/neut bonuses!
Yes TD's are great against snipers that operate between 150 and 249 km with their 72 km optimal.
Also how exactly does a tracking disrupter do anything against nano ships? Nano vaga fights deep in falloff with negible optimal range and plenty of tracking even if TD'ed to keep hitting at 10km+. Nano ishtar uses drones, no effect with the TD, nano sac uses missles again no effect with the td. Those are basicly the only nano ships around currently...
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:15:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 18/10/2007 12:16:52
Originally by: Shevar Yes TD's are great against snipers that operate between 150 and 249 km with their 72 km optimal.
Also how exactly does a tracking disrupter do anything against nano ships? Nano vaga fights deep in falloff with negible optimal range and plenty of tracking even if TD'ed to keep hitting at 10km+. Nano ishtar uses drones, no effect with the TD, nano sac uses missles again no effect with the td. Those are basicly the only nano ships around currently...
There is no need to have an answer vs all ship types.
But: like mentioned before: the cap booster (needed now for running neuts) takes a mid slot, thus reducing the amount of available slots for TDs by one. Out of the usual mid slot design: MWD (direly needed for gate camps), Scrambler (needed to prevent warping off) and Webber (direly needed to keep target in range) only two slots remain. Those two slots were used for dampeners or TDs. Due to the NOS nerf the 4th slot is now a cap booster, thus effectively taking one TD away from the Pilgrim. Also the former NOS in high are less effective to kill Cap, as it cant finish the Cap, which is direly needed, when target is at 30% Cap. When the target is at 30% Cap and you have your cap booster running, a NOS wont have any effect on the target.
Result: NOS nerf took a mid slot (effectively one TD) and crippled a high slot (3 high slots for the former 3 NOS setups).
The minor buff, which the Pilgrim received, only enabled us to really equip the cap booster, but did not address the loss of a mid slot and the crippled high slots.
It is sane reasoning and I do hope that one dev who is into it takes a look and confirms that it is being addressed. __
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 05/06/2007 03:05:53 Agreed. All Force Recons (except Amarr) lose a damage bonus from the recon skill to gain the cloak cpu bonus. Problem is that Amarr recons only have one damage bonus, which is linked to the cruiser skill. Solution is to juggle the bonuses around. New balanced bonuses should look like:
Pilgrim Amarr Cruiser - 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level Recon Ships - 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Curse Amarr Cruiser - 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level Recon Ships - 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
That would bring the Pilgrim inline with the other Force Recons.
/SIGNED in triplicate with sugar on top.
The Pilgrim is absolutely crying out for a change like this.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail |
Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: N1fty Most people here are trying to compare the pilgrim with the other force recons. This is totally flawed thinking in my opinion, the ships have been designed to do different tasks.
And it is flawed in your opinion, ....because? With what should it be compared instead? The arbitrator since it basically fills the same slot in gangs? Or maybe the blockade runners since it can get quite a fair bit of cargohold with expanders?
Of cource ships are designed for different tasks, but that does not mean they are not compareable. In their general efficiency. If ship 1 is *great* for task A and bad for task B and ship 2 is bad for task A and average for task B ship 1 is the more efficient ship.
The point is that the other force recons either have a better general performance than the pilgrim (rapier) or perform far better in their speciality than the pilgrim does in his (falcon, arazu).
Originally by: Hydrogen There is no need to have an answer vs all ship types.
Maybe you should have followed the discussion a bit more closely.
N1fty - "Pilgrim still has its Tracking Disruption bonus, which IS useful in gangs, especially defending against Snipers and Nano's." Shevar - Explains why TDs are actually pretty useLESS against those targets You - "There is no need to have an answer vs all ship types."
Right. Brilliant reasoning.
Quote: But: like mentioned before:...
I would agree with that though. Also, added to this there are cargo capacity issues with cap charges which is rather problematic for a ship designed to operate behind enemy lines.
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dralid maximus
M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: jilahed
What i don't like is 13km away you are only an arbitrator with t2 resistances and potentially without propulsion mod.
Same can be said about the Deimos, only here replace arbitrator with thorax
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:49:00 -
[52]
A deimos does far more dps. And has a range bonus.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:52:00 -
[53]
Pilgrim is pretty balanced against the other recons in terms of solo ganking capability, it can kill more potential targets in exchange for it being harder to disengage. The problem with the Pilgrim is it's absolutely worthless in gang, while the other cloaking recons most certainly are not.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Xequecal Pilgrim is pretty balanced against the other recons in terms of solo ganking capability, it can kill more potential targets in exchange for it being harder to disengage. The problem with the Pilgrim is it's absolutely worthless in gang, while the other cloaking recons most certainly are not.
The 'solo ganking' capabilities are, imo, massively over rated. I wouldnt be suprised to find that the vast majority of pilgrim solo kills are of new players in poorly fitted ships in low sec areas.
'Good in solo pvp' has become a by word for trying to explain away the poor capabilities of the Pilgrim in relation to the other races recons.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail |
Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Hydrogen There is no need to have an answer vs all ship types.
Maybe you should have followed the discussion a bit more closely.
N1fty - "Pilgrim still has its Tracking Disruption bonus, which IS useful in gangs, especially defending against Snipers and Nano's." Shevar - Explains why TDs are actually pretty useLESS against those targets You - "There is no need to have an answer vs all ship types."
Right. Brilliant reasoning.
@Aramendel on a sidenote beforehand: right now we are in a reasonable discussion, your reaction to my post is simply out of the line.
1. How exactly does a TD on a Pilgrim effect a Sniper, who is 150+ km away? Tracking speed reduction at that range? Targeting range? The facts are with perfect skills on a Balmer TD: 72km optimal, 36km falloff and -69.63% to optimal and tracking speed. So how does it affect a Sniper with decent skills, who sits at 150km?
2. How does a TD effect a Nano ship? Only when the Nano is orbiting aka with high transversal velocity.
3. does the Pilgrim have a range bonus on NOS/Neut? Does the cloak imply, that the Pilgrim is meant to work at range?
Result: 1. no, 2. sometimes, 3. no
Or in other words: The Pilgrim is not meant to have an appropriate answer to each ship type/setup. Something which is btw. obvious when looking on how CCP designs ships.
Can we now go back, on why the Pilgrim needs a change and on what this change could be, so the Pilgrim is inline with its original design idea? __
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OwnedBy Me
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix I think you have that backwards. I'd NEVER give up the drone damage bonus for a nos range one. The DPS is poor enough as it is. Plus, you don't need range on a Pilgrim when you can de-cloak a few thousand meters away.
TBH, it really doesn't matter what you prefer. In terms of balance and continuity with other force recons Pilgrim needs to do less damage than Curse while keeping the same range. It's really that simple. And obviously you've never had some hostile support warp in 20km from your ass, scramble you, and proceed to laugh as you can't do anything except send a few drones at em because of your non-bnoused NOS range
Thats why u are a nub that doesnt use his scanner...No matter how much they boost it.. U should die when u cant pvp.. its really simpel..
Now go whine about the apoc.. u got a point there..
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Xequecal Pilgrim is pretty balanced against the other recons in terms of solo ganking capability, it can kill more potential targets in exchange for it being harder to disengage. The problem with the Pilgrim is it's absolutely worthless in gang, while the other cloaking recons most certainly are not.
The 'solo ganking' capabilities are, imo, massively over rated. I wouldnt be suprised to find that the vast majority of pilgrim solo kills are of new players in poorly fitted ships in low sec areas.
'Good in solo pvp' has become a by word for trying to explain away the poor capabilities of the Pilgrim in relation to the other races recons.
C.
The Pilgrim can kill pretty much anything except ships that fit cruise launchers. Torp ravens are pretty easy kills, as is any turret boat. It may take a while to kill them if they have injector but it's pretty much assured. The other recons are limited to what tanks they can break.
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:29:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 18/10/2007 13:30:08
Originally by: Aramendel I would agree with that though. Also, added to this there are cargo capacity issues with cap charges which is rather problematic for a ship designed to operate behind enemy lines.
There are two distinct roles for a Pilgrim: 1. Scout/Recon 2. Cyno
In its Cyno role the Pilgrim is crippled anyways for PvP - it must rely on defense. Simply due to the high slot fitting a Cynosaural field generator and due to carrying liquid ozone.
In its scout/recon role, the Pilgrim has the whole Cargo for Cap boosters, meaning it can hold 9x800 cap charges. In my experience that is enough as drones will also see their wear and tear ;) - it is most likely you need to go for repairs of your drones before you used all of the 800's __
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OwnedBy Me
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:30:00 -
[59]
Edited by: OwnedBy Me on 18/10/2007 13:31:43
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Aramendel
1. How exactly does a TD on a Pilgrim effect a Sniper, who is 150+ km away? Tracking speed reduction at that range? Targeting range? The facts are with perfect skills on a Balmer TD: 72km optimal, 36km falloff and -69.63% to optimal and tracking speed. So how does it affect a Sniper with decent skills, who sits at 150km?
2. How does a TD effect a Nano ship? Only when the Nano is orbiting aka with high transversal velocity.
3. does the Pilgrim have a range bonus on NOS/Neut? Does the cloak imply, that the Pilgrim is meant to work at range?
Result: 1. no, 2. sometimes, 3. no
Can we now go back, on why the Pilgrim needs a change and on what this change could be, so the Pilgrim is inline with its original design idea?
1: The sniper will not hit any fast moving ships.. All ur tacklers/dictors and so on.. That is pretty usefull wouldnt you say ?.. then comes the cry baby - but it can shoot meeeeee.. Cry some more, so ur not good at 100km, u can take out nearly any ship up close.. U also got a clok for crying out lought...
2: do u know how many nano ship do just orbit ?... It will work against almost all nano pilots.. If they slow down they are sitting docks, if they make hit and runs they are only doing a small amout of the dmg they would have done...
3: One could argue yes.......
No we cant go back to that.. there is nothing to go back to.. It doesnt need a boost..
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: OwnedBy Me 1: The sniper will not hit any fast moving ships.. All ur tacklers/dictors and so on.. That is pretty usefull wouldnt you say ?.. then comes the cry baby - but it can shoot meeeeee.. Cry some more, so ur not good at 100km, u can take out nearly any ship up close.. U also got a clok for crying out lought...
So you claim, that a Sniper at 150km will not hit any fast moving ships due to TD's with 72km optimal and 36km falloff?
Well assuming the fast moving ships are already on him within like 20km range you are perfectly right. But thats not what we are talking about here.
Either read this EvE tracking guide and then understand what this does or troll somewhere else. __
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