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Exco Executor
Occam's Razor Combine R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.07 03:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Neurosis
Lastly POS Jump Bridges, seems like this may do an amazing amount for server performance removing so many jump que's, this also seems to be the poor man's titan giving small alliances ways to move ships and equipment deep into enemy territory, or for small alliances to completely bypass some of the more painful to defend entrances.
Jump Bridges have static max range of 5 ly, what is very very short range. (Carrier jumps further with minimum skills) Therefore I think CCP did nerf this new array before even patch launch...
www.occam-razor.com
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Jack Cannon
The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.06.07 05:54:00 -
[62]
Everyone poo poo'ing bombers has no idea what they are talking about. No, 100 bombers on a gate will not be effective as only a few of them can launch bombs and only of the exact same damage type in a given cycle. Sure after that a few more bombers can launch their bombs but it will hardly be an end to blob warfare. Also anything with ANY kind of speed (ccp encouraging fast ships? me head spins!!!) will easily escape the bombs.
So it's not a frig nerf as long as you don't all orbit the same thing within that 15km sphere with EVERY single frig in your fleet. (but oh no he says... what about primary aren't we all supposed to fire on the same one?)
As for the pos upgrades time will tell there. I really haven't played enough with them to form an opinion. It should be interesting.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.07 06:05:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Astasia Orian
Originally by: Vile rat So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
The bridge has a 5 LY range. You can't claim sov in empire. I admit that posting AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is more fun than facts though.
While you could not claim sov in empire you could set up a jump chain that would vastly reduce the risk involved in moving freighters. While logisticians will jump for joy it makes destroying the freighters almost impossible. It makes holding large sections of space easy compared to how it is now and the difficulty in holding and maintaining conquerable space is one of the natural built in limitations on how big a space empire can become. It's a good check/balance and should be encouraged to remain instead of destroyed.
Quote: when did a goon post anything that made sense?
Hey thanks for this. Your contributions to this thread are a shining beacon of insight in an otherwise dark and dreary realm of ignorance.
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Arenis Xemdal
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.07 06:43:00 -
[64]
CCP's changes will only phase out the relevance of having Supercapitals from alliance warfare, as they are more or less introducing a poor man's Doomsday and a more static version of the Jump Bridge. To compound that, there are numerous changes/nerfs that will mean a massive gamble every time you field a Mothership or Titan. Otherwise, POS warfare is not going to get any more fun or less tedious, and it will still come down to whoever has the bigger Dreadnaught fleet.
Incapacitating POS mods may sound like a novel idea at first, but unless its followed by immediate reinforcing of the POS you've just wasted time, ammo, and possibly some ships doing it. To reinforce POS, people will still need to bring in Dreadnaughts to do it in any reasonable amount of time. And they won't be any more vulnerable versus undefended POS, which negates the whole point of bringing in a skirmish team to incapacitate the weaponry.
The most significant change will be giving the support fleet (bs, hacs, bcs) something to shoot alongside the dreads, which could make it go slightly faster and less boring for support.
Outright destroying the guns going to take even more time and ammo, and have the collective impact of costing the enemy 10-40mil ISK to replace his batteries.. which is a big fat whoop. Have each person in the gang npc for an hour or two and you can make enough to get yourselves a large tower. 7 day sovereignty clock with 5-9 day reinforced timers is sure going to win
And having constellation sovereignty may sound like a great way to fortify space, until you realize they will just move in freighters to spam pos first, and worry about killing cyno inhibitors + using capitals later. Chances are, the array itself would get incapacitated pretty quick against a proper fleet.
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.07 07:14:00 -
[65]
I think these changes are making regional warfare better. Even right now "who has the biggest dread fleet" is what wins POS warfare, so I dunno how big of an argument that really is.
I want to see it in action for awhile before I make a final call though.
- Recruitment open again-
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.07 07:15:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Exco Executor
Jump Bridges have static max range of 5 ly, what is very very short range. (Carrier jumps further with minimum skills) Therefore I think CCP did nerf this new array before even patch launch...
True, but then again you won't need to have a much farther jump bridge, just move your fleet to an adjacent system, and that way you may circumvent any gatecamp preventing you from doing it traditionally.
- Recruitment open again-
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Kinsy
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.07 09:17:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Kinsy on 07/06/2007 09:17:19
Originally by: Neurosis After playing on Sisi for a couple of hours yesterday It seemed a lot like CCP was attempting to bring back skirmish warfare.
Please explain to me how you came to this conclusion.
Originally by: Neurosis Before carriers, MS, And Titans it was very feasible for a small group of PvP'ers to impact alliance operations using hit and run tactics and by controlling key entrances to 0.0
Hell yes. Was this a bad thing? No. If they are unable to fight for their space, why should they own it?
Now it is not a case of having to fight for ones space against a small well organised group. Just have a couple of capships ready to jump and fit your npcers with cyno generators. Yawn...
Originally by: Neurosis Lastly POS Jump Bridges...being in an alliance with a fair number of super capitals and seeing directly the benefit of them logistically and tactically, it now appears we may soon be facing an enemy with much better means to effectively counter us without having to spend the gazillion isk to build mother ships and titans.
ISK isnt so much of a problem...as stated, unless you already control the territory you cant build a POS jump bridge. Would you let a hostile alliance hold sov over a constellation in your back yard for longer than a week? The towers wouldn't last a week in even the most incompetent alliances back yard.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.06.07 09:23:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal CCP's changes will only phase out the relevance of having Supercapitals from alliance warfare, as they are more or less introducing a poor man's Doomsday and a more static version of the Jump Bridge. To compound that, there are numerous changes/nerfs that will mean a massive gamble every time you field a Mothership or Titan. Otherwise, POS warfare is not going to get any more fun or less tedious, and it will still come down to whoever has the bigger Dreadnaught fleet.
Incapacitating POS mods may sound like a novel idea at first, but unless its followed by immediate reinforcing of the POS you've just wasted time, ammo, and possibly some ships doing it. To reinforce POS, people will still need to bring in Dreadnaughts to do it in any reasonable amount of time. And they won't be any more vulnerable versus undefended POS, which negates the whole point of bringing in a skirmish team to incapacitate the weaponry.
The most significant change will be giving the support fleet (bs, hacs, bcs) something to shoot alongside the dreads, which could make it go slightly faster and less boring for support.
Outright destroying the guns going to take even more time and ammo, and have the collective impact of costing the enemy 10-40mil ISK to replace his batteries.. which is a big fat whoop. Have each person in the gang npc for an hour or two and you can make enough to get yourselves a large tower. 7 day sovereignty clock with 5-9 day reinforced timers is sure going to win
And having constellation sovereignty may sound like a great way to fortify space, until you realize they will just move in freighters to spam pos first, and worry about killing cyno inhibitors + using capitals later. Chances are, the array itself would get incapacitated pretty quick against a proper fleet.
You would spam POS in a system where you can't put in capitals to defend them? Aside from the limitations they are saying they are gonna put on POS spamming, putting up POSses in a system under hostile control and him having capitals and not you seems like a bad idea.
About POS warfare still being boring I would agree. Personally i think they should move all the Large POSses from the moons to the planets to claim sovereignty, and only allow small POSses at moons with industrial stuff. Reduces the amount of POSses needed to protect or attack a system immensely.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Kebdil
X-Fire
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Posted - 2007.06.07 11:10:00 -
[69]
ok the way i see it, the cyno jammer can work both ways...help the alliance protect its system...but if the attacking force manages to first bring caps in system and then put a cyno jammer on...well then blob the gate and it can pretty much kill what it wants with almost no interjection? unless i missed something?although if the defending alliance has the pos jump net what is it to stop it from cynoying in the next system after the attacked one and go in from the gate behind? so the attackers will have to watch all gates:) any thoughts? -------------------- Proud member of X-Fire since my 1st day ---------- History is on the move captain, those who cannot keep up with it will be left behind to watch from a distance , But those wh |
Tonoppa
Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.06.07 11:16:00 -
[70]
one question about cyno jammers, if u jumped out of cyno-jammed system then turn around and go back into system but with cyno-jammed effect still ongoing, i assume friendly cant CYNO back into if so that is fair trade off then
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.07 11:16:00 -
[71]
The new bombs will be a hell for carriers and moms. That diminishes the capital power a bit
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
The Dokter
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.06.07 11:49:00 -
[72]
Oke for the cyno jammers, you need sovereignity over the system or the constelation? And what happens when one of the weaker systems falls, the cyno thingie's stop working? Because then it will mean that cap fights will be less frequent. First you need to take out the cyno thingie in the system the least defended, then you need to take out the pos there and claim it. After that you can cyno in your capitals and bring in the fleet to the main target system. So for defending constelations it's not only important you have a big ammount of cap ships, but also a good bs or support fleet. Sounds like fun.
"It is a good idea to "shop around" before you settle on a doctor. He can kill you." |
Gunship
Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.07 11:56:00 -
[73]
All these new things will mean alot of change, however those who evolve (sorry could not help myself) are proberly more likly to win (again).
It will be even more important to be well structured and organized, atm I can only think of 3 Alliances that master this.
So you want to join us? |
Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:10:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Victor Vision Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/06/2007 16:49:49 Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/06/2007 16:01:01
Originally by: Neurosis From my viewpoint bombs are the best anti-blob tool ever introduced, kinda like a poor mans DD...
Poor mans strategy is the blob. Giving the poor man a good tool to kill themselves is very thoughtfull, indeed.
Originally by: Neurosis New pos mods from my take seem to be geared towards making it much harder to initially assault a POS, preventing your 2-4 man dread operations from effectively being able to take on a large tower...
That is great! It will help the largest alliance to stay in power, and prevent anyone from wrongfully taking it from them. A splendid idea!
Originally by: Neurosis Lastly POS Jump Bridges, seems like this may do an amazing amount for server performance removing so many jump que's, this also seems to be the poor man's titan giving small alliances ways to move ships and equipment deep into enemy territory...
... so they can then loose their equipment quickly to the largest alliance. Providing the largest alliance with fun pew-pew. Awesome.
Originally by: Neurosis being in an alliance with a fair number of super capitals and seeing directly the benefit of them logistically and tactically, it now appears we may soon be facing an enemy with much better means to effectively counter us without having to spend the gazillion isk to build mother ships and titans.
That is right. Others, besides the largest alliance, should not build motherships and titans. That would be just wrong and unfair. And yes, they should instead bring many targets which can easily be killed by titans and motherships.
Overall, seems like excellent ideas.
What I am missing is alliance owned sentry-guns. These should only be available to the alliance which effectively controls most of 0.0 though. They fought hard for it, and deserve this priviledge.
That would nicely round up the package.
You, good sir, are a plank.
good day...
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:12:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Victor Vision Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/06/2007 16:14:53
Originally by: Grim Faust Edited by: Grim Faust on 06/06/2007 16:10:44 Edited by: Grim Faust on 06/06/2007 16:09:48
Originally by: The Anointed The fact that the defenders have the ability to use cap ships to defend a system against an attacker that cant cyno in his own cap ships, puts the defender on teh high ground by a large amount.
Thats going to incite insane blobs.
Bombers are going to be used to excess seeing as they are pretty throwaway.
Mmmm, Trevs post about people being too rich is going to go out the window when people start trying to take down pos's.
In a nutshell that pretty much sums things up. You have someone with a MS and a stack of 20-30 dreads/carriers with possible support to defend. How the heck are you going to be able to take that sort of system. Just think about then scaling that up with people who can bring 100 caps to the field. How many BS would it take to take over such a force??? The answer is way too damn many.
Hell! That even pidgeon holes people in to getting DD'd to death. Can't assault with super-caps? Bring in the small ships to swarm the POS! WRONG. DD. YOU LOSE. LAWL...
I find it fairly outrageous these wonderfull new features are being criticised.
I am sure CCP talked directly with the most qualified players in EVE before implementing them. Also the devs with alliance experience surely gave their input as well.
Thus, the new features are just perfect for the game, and good for all of us.
Still a plank...
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:13:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Victor Vision
Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: Victor Vision Useless Take on new Changes
Do you Dream about us regularly?
Are those dreams good or bad?
Do you have nightmares about us?
Do you have BoB Posters on your room walls?
Are you in love with BoB?
And finally and most important...
Would a hug help?
HeyYou, I said the changes are excellent. Also I did not mention the name of your wonderfull alliance anywhere in this thread.
So where lies your problem, dear sir? Do you need a hug?
Besides, you post off topic. Please comment on the new features, this is what this thread is about.
The plankness continues....
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:19:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Thundirr I have a few questions on the 'methods of jump bridging' between POS.
1: Freighter A makes it to a POS in low sec .1 space Owned by alliance A for 5 weeks. Can Freighter 1 jump from a POS in low sec to a POS in 0.0 held by alliance B that has had SOV for 5 weeks. Or Do the Jump bridges have to be between Towers held by the same Corp? or Same Alliance? or Just having the pilots in the same gang?
So the question is. Can i jump from a friendly Jump bridge to an alliance one? or is it alliance/corp only.
By the sounds of the things in this thread, and using a little common sense, I would suggest that both sides of the bridge would need to be in sovereign space. And since nobody can hold sovereignity in low sec, the jump bridge will never exist between low sec and 0.0...
Unless I am reading something wrong...
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EzSnake
Caldari The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:31:00 -
[78]
Edited by: EzSnake on 07/06/2007 12:30:48 Mattduk - how about you post on TOPIC and stop trolling with your "plank" post(s).....mmmkay!!
Testing on SiSi-- unless you had the skills to use these new toys, 2/3 months prior to their announcement, then sisi is useless for a testing platform as you can't use items!!! ________________________________________________ Next MMO |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.07 12:41:00 -
[79]
You keep talking about the possibilities for 'small alliances', but have you considered the uses of and imba caused by 'large alliances' using all these shiny new things?
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busta nut
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.06.07 18:16:00 -
[80]
Originally by: EzSnake Edited by: EzSnake on 07/06/2007 12:30:48 Mattduk - how about you post on TOPIC and stop trolling with your "plank" post(s).....mmmkay!!
Testing on SiSi-- unless you had the skills to use these new toys, 2/3 months prior to their announcement, then sisi is useless for a testing platform as you can't use items!!!
actually they recently gave everyone the skills to use some of the new toys, i think its based on what you could use before- so if you could use carriers, you can test the triage mod, personally i was given - not trained for on either server- the skills to use bombs on the test server. just an FYI
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Koronos
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.09 14:14:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Janu Hull Doesn't the jump bridge require a cyno field?
Does it? That was not my understanding.
Originally by: Janu Hull If the supressor is still up, they can't reinforce their POS with capitals from outside the system. If they drop the cynosuppressor, they expose themselves to the attackers waiting cyno fleet.
This breaks up the blob for larger territorial alliances by requiring them to disperse their capital fleets across their territory in order to have support on hand in the event an attack force comes in.
You can't have a blob on standby in EVERY system you control, so you're either forced to use massive support fleets and a handful of, if any, capital ships to defend a deathstar in a cyno guarded system, or you drop the cynosuppressor, blob up, and deal with whatever the enemy throws at you like y'all do now.
For established alliances, its now possible to protect yourselves against the capital blob. You're back to battleship fleets with occassional capital support during wars against established powers.
Which would seem to necessiate absolute maximum blobsize, no?
I guess I just don't get how these changes are supposed to reduce blob. If thats not their intention, 1) well, okay, but more importantly 2) why not? :p
Koronos
Fixing lag > all other changes please. Oh except the titan nerf, thats good. :)
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.09 15:34:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Neurosis From my viewpoint bombs are the best anti-blob tool ever introduced, kinda like a poor mans DD, and with the DD being able to only being detonated with the ship on the field it looks like this may give smaller alliances and PvP forces a way to fight back.
Bombs are just more affordable, more readily available capital insurance, since they basicly make interdiction a thing of the past and kill regular tacklers at the same time. Their damage portions also only endanger sub-capitals - being difficult to deal with for battleships (but just barely shy of instapopping anything) and instant death for anyone else, but negligible by capitals in every serious way.
So it's really going to rather dramatically cement capitals as the modus operandi, with yet another efficient way to deal with groups of non-capitals :/
Quote: New pos mods from my take seem to be geared towards making it much harder to initially assault a POS, preventing your 2-4 man dread operations from effectively being able to take on a large tower, this also seems like it may deter much of the pos piracy I see. Being able to take out pos defenses requires a fair force to be effective but how will this affect system sieges when dreads mow down an entire system of pos's defenses leaving them unprotected.
Every serious structurebuff is bad, because player versus structure is a) way too biased towards lagging the node out b) really unfun. There is no way anyone can sanely say PoS guns of all things need a buff :/
Quote:
Lastly POS Jump Bridges, seems like this may do an amazing amount for server performance removing so many jump que's, this also seems to be the poor man's titan giving small alliances ways to move ships and equipment deep into enemy territory, or for small alliances to completely bypass some of the more painful to defend entrances.
Supposedly you'll be requiring Sov. Which limits it mainly (although not entirely) to those with capital superiority in a region. Which would only be half as bad if it weren't the shipclass that effectively rules out of most of the playerbase.
Quote:
being in an alliance with a fair number of super capitals and seeing directly the benefit of them logistically and tactically, it now appears we may soon be facing an enemy with much better means to effectively counter us without having to spend the gazillion isk to build mother ships and titans.
discuss
You're on drugs. But it's easy to be naive as all get out when you don't have to make practical plans.
If I had to make a prediction, this will be a trainwreck much like the massive capital HP boost + rigs in Kali 1. Another change heralded as a fix by the completely insightless, followed by weeks of pondering and fingerpointing on E-O why things will be controlled by caps just as much if not more.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.09 15:40:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon The new bombs will be a hell for carriers and moms. That diminishes the capital power a bit
Except a) you can't drop enough capbombs without blowing them up yourself to make a dent at all b) every physical bomb counters capbombs.
And ECM bombs ? Same deal, everybody not in a cap gets screwed - but at least this time, it hurts Dreadnoughts as well. All other capitals have sensorstrength coming out the ears, they won't care much.
By the simple design of the mechanic that necessitates that all non-physical bomb have 0% to all physical resists, a single intermittent physical bomb (remember, caps are practically immune to this) renders anything else useless.
The only negative impact on capitals is possibly fighters, since physical bombing can be hard to stop and since they have to often travel away from the launching ship they're very likely to get the short end of the stick.
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Karina Kurophsky
Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2007.06.09 17:05:00 -
[84]
Its funny watching all the whining. A few have specific constructive points but most just whine. EVE isnt going to give you a free ride. The most powerfull alliances in EVE today did not get to were there at without a sick amount of work and EVE addiction. Just like in a free world you get out what you put in. Until your all ready to put out like real men then you should can it and go play WOW were you can cry about some 13 year old sploiting you and how it aint fair.
EVE is a game that rewards those willing to take risk and that have the Real world skills in Leadership, organization, and commitment.
I say amen to the new changes as it will liven up the POS wars and make people actually have to think before dumping the Le-Blob into system.
Adapt or die people, I can imagine some of you dont live your RL that way so all this whining makes sence.
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.09 17:09:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vile rat So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
Well afaik you need Sov, so you couldn't jump to empire. I may be wrong tho, really not sure. If I'm right, alliance -> empire chokepoints are gonna be interesting again possibly... ------------
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Slow Joe
I can't believe it's not a noob corp
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Posted - 2007.06.10 05:38:00 -
[86]
This doesn't belong in CAOD. It should be moved to Game Development Forum.
Originally by: Sochin In this case, we are razing 0.0 of all the useless debris and planting new seedling alliances that will blossom into beautiful flowers of awesomeness.
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mamolian
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.10 05:53:00 -
[87]
Alot of these new changes won't bring back skirmish warefare as the number one form of combat.. =/
Seems to me all it will do, will allow the bigger alliances to entrench themselves in space, and make it even more difficult to remove, without the backing of a 400+ man 23 hour force..
-------------------------------
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ArcticFox
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.10 06:43:00 -
[88]
Edited by: ArcticFox on 10/06/2007 06:43:33
Originally by: Victor Vision You mean to say I mentioned your alliance by name in this thread?
Where? You must be hallucinating
Actually, you're right. You said "largest alliance," so you can only have meant Goonswarm. Unless of course you were referring to largest capital fleet, in which case you must have meant RA.
Yes, it's a good thing for BoB these huge powers are such good friends with them, because if they were enemies these new features might make it considerably more difficult for BoB to go on the offensive against them.
Or were you basing your assumptions on the dev blog that said these would be available only to alliances with B in their name? -------------------------- There is only one +6 sword of WTFPWN in Eve, and only the lag is allowed to equip it. |
Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2007.06.10 07:49:00 -
[89]
Okay, let's get some stuff clear about the new modules, everyone seems to be getting each other confused.
Cyno Jammer: Requires "Sovereignty 3", which means you have a POS claiming sov for 5+ weeks in a system (which is fairly easy to do). This is not constellation sovereignty. Once it's up no one can ignite a cyno field in the jammed system (this also blocks the new cyno generator array), however the owner can still bring in cap ships via the jump bridge.
Jump Bridge. This also requires "Sovereignty 3" (see above). This means you can't set the things up in NPC 0.0 or low-sec. The array works more like a stargate than anything else; to use it you need to connect 2 bridges together, and it consumes liquid ozone and strontium on use (approximately 2x as much as a Titan jump portal). It's worth noting that these modules must be outside the POS bubble, meaning anyone using them is going to enter and land outside and be vulnerable to attack. It will be possible to build chains for safer routes obviously, but Freighters will still need to enter 0.0 the hard way. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
Koronos
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.10 16:49:00 -
[90]
Originally by: mamolian Alot of these new changes won't bring back skirmish warefare as the number one form of combat.. =/
Seems to me all it will do, will allow the bigger alliances to entrench themselves in space, and make it even more difficult to remove, without the backing of a 400+ man 23 hour force..
That's exactly how I read it. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how I am, and noone's explained it to me yet
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